ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #20

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  • #601
That would mean it was circumstantial evidence, gathering evidence, which would point them in a direction of a homicide. It can happen without a body, but still, it wouldn't be hard proof. If they had proof of a murder, they would have arrested someone. Right now they're searching for testimony to come up for a narrative. They don't know why they can't find him. That is the big mystery they have to explain at this point.

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I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know. I think there's a chance your post is right on. However, I disagree that it would only mean circumstantial evidence. I am very close to a case here on WS. It is now solved, but in the years it took to solve it, LE knew exactly who did it and how, with physical evidence. They wanted to wait until they had a body to proceed. I am quite sure that was not the only murder case where that has occurred.

As I said before, you could be right. I'm just presenting another way to look at it. [emoji4]
 
  • #602
They kind of let a possible crime scene be tainted. I don't think they were tracking searchers, they let someone dump an urn into the reservior (now they don't know if the dogs were smelling it or Deorr), the "suspects" were camped out there all summer...were the police with them at all times, why did they stay if they knew he was dead? Lots of questions can go both ways. Not a lot to go on.

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  • #603
They kind of let a possible crime scene be tainted. I don't think they were tracking searchers, they let someone dump an urn into the reservior (now they don't know if the dogs were smelling it or Deorr), the "suspects" were camped out there all summer...were the police with them at all times, why did they stay if they knew he was dead? Lots of questions can go both ways. Not a lot to go on.

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And never mind that somebody just wondered off with an emt bag....no big deal.

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  • #604
And never mind that somebody just wondered off with an emt bag....no big deal.

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Do what!!!?

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  • #605
Do what!!!?

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Well figuring out who took it or where it went would be kind of important imo

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  • #606
Yes! That's crazy I never heard anything about that. I guess I missed that

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  • #607
Well figuring out who took it or where it went would be kind of important imo


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Ive been suspicious that the emt bag has actually been significant & something is known about its disappearance, but for investigations sake they are very purposefully being casual about it. Just keeping the focus off so the parents/whoever won't focus on coming up with an explanation of some sort. It might be the whole screwball bit of evidence the case hinges on.
 
  • #608
Ive been suspicious that the emt bag has actually been significant & something is known about its disappearance, but for investigations sake they are very purposefully being casual about it. Just keeping the focus off so the parents/whoever won't focus on coming up with an explanation of some sort. It might be the whole screwball bit of evidence the case hinges on.
And now that I've let the cat out of the bag... 😁 This is my half witted opinion only. I have no idea.
 
  • #609
Maybe a dumb question to ask, but what all does "the mountain" encompass? I wonder just how vast it really is, and if Leadore is referred to being part of that mountain?
 
  • #610
Yes! That's crazy I never heard anything about that. I guess I missed that

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"You know I believe that one of the uh volunteers was up in the area and their vehicle was broke into.* It might have been left unlocked, but something…an EMT bag was…was taken from them"


"I’m not sure if we ever determined uh who took it or what the circumstances were surrounding that."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286501

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  • #611
I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know. I think there's a chance your post is right on. However, I disagree that it would only mean circumstantial evidence. I am very close to a case here on WS. It is now solved, but in the years it took to solve it, LE knew exactly who did it and how, with physical evidence. They wanted to wait until they had a body to proceed. I am quite sure that was not the only murder case where that has occurred.

As I said before, you could be right. I'm just presenting another way to look at it. [emoji4]

And there have been cases when LE has been so sure they've got the suspect that they've overlooked evidence, not followed leads, and otherwise missed the real killer.

Or they could be waiting for lab results to come back from the FBI or another lab. That can take months.

Even if they knew where a body might be, it's unlikely they could recover it now. It's probably under four feet of snow.

So there could be many many reasons why an arrest hasn't happened.

It's so hard to be patient...
 
  • #612
They kind of let a possible crime scene be tainted. I don't think they were tracking searchers, they let someone dump an urn into the reservior (now they don't know if the dogs were smelling it or Deorr), the "suspects" were camped out there all summer...were the police with them at all times, why did they stay if they knew he was dead? Lots of questions can go both ways. Not a lot to go on.

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As the investigation & search for Deorr continued, the FBI was brought in. What questions do you think can go both ways? Why is there not a lot to go on?
 
  • #613
"You know I believe that one of the uh volunteers was up in the area and their vehicle was broke into.* It might have been left unlocked, but something…an EMT bag was…was taken from them"


"I’m not sure if we ever determined uh who took it or what the circumstances were surrounding that."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286501

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Thanks!

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  • #614
And there have been cases when LE has been so sure they've got the suspect that they've overlooked evidence, not followed leads, and otherwise missed the real killer.

Or they could be waiting for lab results to come back from the FBI or another lab. That can take months.

Even if they knew where a body might be, it's unlikely they could recover it now. It's probably under four feet of snow.

So there could be many many reasons why an arrest hasn't happened.

It's so hard to be patient...


It is hard to be patient I know Carbuff, we all want this case to be solved. Nobody wants an innocent party to be found guilty about any crime. But, in this particular case, the FBI has apparently done an extensive job along with LE. I can't even comprehend why both parents would (flunk IMO) be less then truthful on very crucial questions on their missing son, Deorr.
 
  • #615
Stuff I wonder about, the thing that leaves a seed of doubt about a homicide route- look how close they are to that reservior. Do we know how long it would take a two year old to come to the surface? Was someone watching the reservior at all times? They searched bear and wolf dens, what about fish and water fowl? Did they dredge it? It's frequently windy up there. Can the wind cause a current? It only takes about 2 mins to drown, and there is a straight path to that reservior from the camp site. I seriously hate this reservior. If I could, I would drain the whole thing, and go over every inch with a fine tooth comb.
I remember taking my son to a reservoir when he was two. He went bolting for the water, didn't know how deep it was, and went in over his head, there was no splashing or yelling, he just sunk like a rock out of sight. When I came in after him, all you could see was his arms flapping under water. There was no sound. If I hadn't seen him run into the water... ugh. Hard to think about. Maybe my experience is influencing my judgement, but I wish I knew for sure. I can think of a few cases of people going missing, or showing up, in Idaho reserviors after years of searching. For me, the shadow of doubt is that reservior.

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  • #616
Sorry to hear this. At least with Deorr's case we have other agencies involved. The FBI with several agents and specialists, Idaho Fusion Center with the Idaho Criminal Intelligence Center, National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, Lemhi, Bonneville and Bingham County Sheriffs Offices, two different private investigators and all the Search and Rescue Groups have been involved. It would be hard for the Idaho Falls Police Department to coerce a false confession without scrutiny. I'm not sure I've even seen them listed as an involved agency.

Also it was after hearing the FBI's findings that Sheriff Bowerman elevated the parents as the top suspects in the disappearance of Deorr.
Yes, im glad there are experts involved, almost as glad as I am IR lawyered up, because he appears to have qualities they could have taken advantage of, and another family would never know the truth. Thank goodness there was some national attention.
Also, there is no reason to be sorry for someone who is skeptical of the police. They aren't gods. They should be held accountable, they should know their limitations, they should seek outside council, and be responsible for mistakes, all in the pursuit of justice, not ego. They can't be so fragile as to not hold up to scrutiny, or we have failed as a society.

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  • #617
JM and DK took part in a documentary a while back. I don't think they've actually released it yet. I forgot about it. Wondering when it's due out or will even come out at all.

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Was it with the Missing 411 guy?
 
  • #618
Onebest, hoping you'll clarify which dogs search for human scent in general and which ones search for a specific human scent and some of the difficulties each might have encountered while searching for DeOrr? Thanks so much.

Not sure if your question has been answered yet...have been off the computer today but here is my late night attempt. I was not there so my comments are pure speculation and opinion.

For live find dogs looking for live people, if you are asking about what we consider "scent specific" dogs VS "non scent specific dogs" then the difference is that a scent specific dog will be scented on an item that is as uncontaminated a scent sample as possible, from the person they are asked to look for. That dog will go search specifically for that source of scent. These dogs might be Air Scent dogs, sniffing the air for that scent or Trailing dogs, trying to find a trail on the ground from the last known point the person was seen.

A non scent specific AIR scent dog will go out into the search area and find ANY human being alive it runs into. This is fine if the search area is well managed and not flooded with other people searching.

I have posted many times that in my opinion, one of the problems in attempting to find a baby and scenting a dog on an item from them, is that there is no item that you can use from a baby that hasn't been touched by another human. If I was in this situation I would attempt to find something that was as saturated with the baby's scent as possible and see if it would be possible to locate off that. Items perhaps like a car seat, bed, blanket, etc... It HAS been done but contamination can be a challenge.

You want to get the live find dogs in their as soon as possible so there is the least amount of scent contamination from other searchers.

Cadaver dogs are deployed when LE has a concern that a death has occurred. This might be at anytime during the initial search or years and years after that. Some of the difficulties include weather, terrain, and animal contamination. They will run the wind (Air Scent) or detail search rocks, debris, rubble, etc. In general, they will find anything in their trained scent library which usually includes bones, blood, tissue, teeth, body fluids including those from decomposition, adipocere, and of course cremains.

Hope this helps. There are a lot of posts in the archives from folks who have a lot more experience then I do. This is just from the best of my knowledge and of course, my own personal opinion.
 
  • #619
agreed, tantanwawa. in the same vein I hold those accountable for those that in the blink of an eye "lose sight" of their children, never recover them, and set up 'gofundme' accounts. not saying this is the case with deorr, but said accounts make me want to vomit.

I'm alone on this, but again (let's hash it out one more time):

<modsnip>
- don't say to the public when you last saw your child
- drive into g-d's country, no-man's-land with your child
- lie to the cops (LE, FBI, PI's, I don't care which), or, to be politically correct, are "less than truthful".

and sleep in a suburban on a "planned camping trip" with someone you've never met and a dude on oxygen. whilst the locals (store clerk, RC) have never stated publically to the media that they ever saw this child.

c'mon folks. what the heck am I missing???
 
  • #620
agreed, tantanwawa. in the same vein I hold those accountable for those that in the blink of an eye "lose sight" of their children, never recover them, and set up 'gofundme' accounts. not saying this is the case with deorr, but said accounts make me want to vomit.

I'm alone on this, but again (let's hash it out one more time):

<modsnip>
- don't say to the public when you last saw your child
- drive into g-d's country, no-man's-land with your child
- lie to the cops (LE, FBI, PI's, I don't care which), or, to be politically correct, are "less than truthful".

and sleep in a suburban on a "planned camping trip" with someone you've never met and a dude on oxygen. whilst the locals (store clerk, RC) have never stated publically to the media that they ever saw this child.

c'mon folks. what the heck am I missing???

Well, when you put it like that....
 
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