ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[desert-blue]

http://lb.511.idaho.gov/idlb/cameras/camera.jsf?id=7

On sort of an unrelated note, the snow's starting to melt.... high of 45 degrees expected today! Keeping my fingers crossed for an early spring. (elevation at Gilmore Summit is just a little lower than Timber Creek campground...)

 

[neesaki]

The polygraphs were mentioned by LE because they (the polygraphs) back up the fact that the parents can't keep their stories straight and are being less than truthful about the events of July 10th. If a person doesn't think the polygraphs are valid or doesn't believe in polygraphs at all or thinks the parents failed the pertinent questions for some other reasons, then that is fine, but it does not change the fact that the parents have been named as suspects. I think it goes without saying that LE has a lot more evidence besides polygraphs (and ever-changing stories) that led them to declare the parents as suspects. They aren't admissible in court so let's throw out the polys and move on.

Also, FWIW I don't think the only thing they've analyzed is the poly's, Sheriff B also mentioned their "interviews" being analyzed as well, this seems to me to be in addition to the poly's which are limited to yes / no questions / responses. JMO

 

[desert-blue]

I think is't just a crazy dream. I would think this would have been done already if they were going to do this.

Except I think they thought they were going to get away with it. They were only declared suspects a month ago. But, I do hope it's just a crazy dream.

 

[Little Ol Me]

I found the polygraph discussion interesting. I know I've learned a lot more about the polygraph.

I also find it interesting that the parents were polygraphed at least 4 different times.
First one being done, by I assume Lemhi county, which was sent to FBI for analysis.
Then, as I understand it, (don't know if correct), the second, third and fourth, done by the FBI. ALL with the same outcome. Why?
If the first and second have the same results, pertaining to the same questions, why do a third and fourth?
Especially if the 2, 3, and 4th, are done by the same agency?
Just intriguing to me.

 

[haven71]

[FONT=&amp]For what it's worth, I'm not sure why we are discussing the polygraphs. I mean, yes, I understand that LE and the FBI are both using them as a means to get to the bottom of what happened to Little DeOrr, but they aren't even admissible in court so is it even worth us arguing about? We have absolutely NO clue as to what questions Jessica and Vernal were even asked.

[/FONT]http://policelink.monster.com/benefits/articles/104652-taking-the-mystery-out-of-the-polygraph-test[FONT=&amp]


:thinking:
[/FONT]

Interestingly, we know there is someone with "direct knowledge" who came forward with new information. I found this online, and it makes me wonder if a certain someone's polygraph showed this...and we know who all took polygraphs...

Finally, they may use the “Guilty Knowledge Test,” GKT, a test that compares physiological responses to multiple-choice type questions about particular facts that only the examiner and you would know. The majority of American Psychological Association members surveyed think that the GKT is the most accurate of these tests and consider it “a promising forensic tool.

http://policelink.monster.com/benefits/articles/104652-taking-the-mystery-out-of-the-polygraph-test

 

[Hatfield]

I found the polygraph discussion interesting. I know I've learned a lot more about the polygraph.

I also find it interesting that the parents were polygraphed at least 4 different times.
First one being done, by I assume Lemhi county, which was sent to FBI for analysis.
Then, as I understand it, (don't know if correct), the second, third and fourth, done by the FBI. ALL with the same outcome. Why?
If the first and second have the same results, pertaining to the same questions, why do a third and fourth?
Especially if the 2, 3, and 4th, are done by the same agency?
Just intriguing to me.

I was trying to figure out the 9 different ones and this is just a guess of how it went down.

The first wave was 4 tests given to each of the 4. Then someone was unhappy with results for the 2 parents and gave them 2 more each for them. Then I am just guessing that IR was given the 9th one.

So I am just guessing it was
parent 1 = 3 total
parent 2 = 3 total
GGP = 1 total
IR = 2 total

Just a guess as to where the 9 tests went to.
The only thing I am pretty sure about is all 4 would have gotten the first wave of 1 each.

 

[ILOKAL]

Also, FWIW I don't think the only thing they've analyzed is the poly's, Sheriff B also mentioned their "interviews" being analyzed as well, this seems to me to be in addition to the poly's which are limited to yes / no questions / responses. JMO

There are also Pre-test and Post-test interviews during the polygraph session. Bowerman may also be referring to these interviews.

 

[The Apparition]

I'm running out of things to say about this case as we are reduced to combing over the same small amount of information released. Not to discourage members from posting theories but I think pedophile ring is unlikely. My shot in the dark theory was meth cooking gone wrong, but I am aware the PI has said drugs are a red herring. If drugs are not involved I have to go with some kind of accident/neglect issue. I still think it is possible only the parents know what happened and the other POI's were deceived.

Personally as I've mentioned before I certainly think both parents are involved in some kind of no good. As some others have said it's not one thing on it's own, it is the totality of events/information. Between their inability to give useful information, poly issues, LE's statements, PE statements, it's a mountain of little things that add up.

 

[haven71]

I found the polygraph discussion interesting. I know I've learned a lot more about the polygraph.

I also find it interesting that the parents were polygraphed at least 4 different times.
First one being done, by I assume Lemhi county, which was sent to FBI for analysis.
Then, as I understand it, (don't know if correct), the second, third and fourth, done by the FBI. ALL with the same outcome. Why?
If the first and second have the same results, pertaining to the same questions, why do a third and fourth?
Especially if the 2, 3, and 4th, are done by the same agency?
Just intriguing to me.

IIRC there were different "types" of polys given. Perhaps too, different specialists may have administered the various tests to see the consistencies of the others.

 

[Purplepixii]

http://lb.511.idaho.gov/idlb/cameras/camera.jsf?id=7

On sort of an unrelated note, the snow's starting to melt.... high of 45 degrees expected today! Keeping my fingers crossed for an early spring. (elevation at Gilmore Summit is just a little lower than Timber Creek campground...)

Following your OT comment momentarily, I discussed with someone only last night that spring may be coming early this year (based upon the number/severity of recent tornado activity) so you might be onto something there

Either way, I hope there's a speedy resolution to this case soon, for little DeOrr's sake :rose:

 

[ILOKAL]

I was trying to figure out the 9 different ones and this is just a guess of how it went down.

The first wave was 4 tests given to each of the 4. Then someone was unhappy with results for the 2 parents and gave them 2 more each for them. Then I am just guessing that IR was given the 9th one.

So I am just guessing it was
parent 1 = 3 total
parent 2 = 3 total
GGP = 1 total
IR = 2 total

Just a guess as to where the 9 tests went to.
The only thing I am pretty sure about is all 4 would have gotten the first wave of 1 each.

If I'm not mistaken, Bowerman had previously said that each parent were given four polygraphs. I don't have that source but I'm pretty sure he said that.

There are several different types of polygraphs so it's possible they weren't given the same type each time.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I was trying to figure out the 9 different ones and this is just a guess of how it went down.

The first wave was 4 tests given to each of the 4. Then someone was unhappy with results for the 2 parents and gave them 2 more each for them. Then I am just guessing that IR was given the 9th one.

So I am just guessing it was
parent 1 = 3 total
parent 2 = 3 total
GGP = 1 total
IR = 2 total

Just a guess as to where the 9 tests went to.
The only thing I am pretty sure about is all 4 would have gotten the first wave of 1 each.

I thought what Klein said was that the parents alone had 9 tests between them?

 

[ILOKAL]

IIRC there were different "types" of polys given. Perhaps too, different specialists may have administered the various tests to see the consistencies of the others.

Coincidentally, I just posted about there being several types of polygraphs and they might not have had the same type each time. I don't believe it's been said if they were given more than one type, unless I missed it.

 

[Rayemonde]

Except I think they thought they were going to get away with it. They were only declared suspects a month ago. But, I do hope it's just a crazy dream.

Don't worry, it's just a dream if they suddenly tried to falsely pin it on ggp now, there's no way LE would fall for it. JMO.

 

[ClaireNC]

I thought what Klein said was that the parents alone had 9 tests between them?

That's what I thought too. If I remember correctly, VDK had 4 and JM had 5?

 

[DatelineFan]

If I'm not mistaken, Bowerman had previously said that each parent were given four polygraphs. I don't have that source but I'm pretty sure he said that.

There are several different types of polygraphs so it's possible they weren't given the same type each time.

I'm pretty sure he said something like this, too. I thought there were 9 polygraphs between the two parents.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

That's what I thought too. If I remember correctly, VDK had 4 and JM had 5?

Yes, 4 and 5. I don't believe it has been revealed whom took a 5th?

 

[Rayemonde]

I've seen in other cases where someone changes their story, they give them another polygraph about the new story. To see if the new story shows up as deceptive too.

 

[Little Ol Me]

I was trying to figure out the 9 different ones and this is just a guess of how it went down.

The first wave was 4 tests given to each of the 4. Then someone was unhappy with results for the 2 parents and gave them 2 more each for them. Then I am just guessing that IR was given the 9th one.

So I am just guessing it was
parent 1 = 3 total
parent 2 = 3 total
GGP = 1 total
IR = 2 total

Just a guess as to where the 9 tests went to.
The only thing I am pretty sure about is all 4 would have gotten the first wave of 1 each.

You may be right.
I got the impression from something that SB said, that the parents have taken 4 test.
I'm sorry I don't have time right now to find the link.

 

[ILOKAL]

Interestingly, we know there is someone with "direct knowledge" who came forward with new information. I found this online, and it makes me wonder if a certain someone's polygraph showed this...and we know who all took polygraphs...

Finally, they may use the “Guilty Knowledge Test,” GKT, a test that compares physiological responses to multiple-choice type questions about particular facts that only the examiner and you would know. The majority of American Psychological Association members surveyed think that the GKT is the most accurate of these tests and consider it “a promising forensic tool.

http://policelink.monster.com/benefits/articles/104652-taking-the-mystery-out-of-the-polygraph-test

After reading several sites on polygraphs, including the excellent one you have shared, I am providing a link to one I feel does a more than adequate job of explains the various types of plus, how and when they are used, as well as explaining the difference in control questions, relevant questions, non-relevant questions, as well as questions that should not produce a physiological response at all. It might offer a better understanding of how the parents might have answered some questions and why they had inconclusive results on every test.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/ota/varieties.html

Here's another good one from the American Psychological Assn:

http://www.apa.org/research/action/polygraph.aspx