ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[kammiemc]

Hmmm, I believe police need probable cause to stop someone, but is it probable cause that is needed to arrest someone?

Good night, everyone!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ILOKAL]

"The U. S. Supreme Court has held that jeopardy attaches during a jury trial when the jury is sworn. In criminal cases tried by a judge without a jury, also called a bench trial, jeopardy attaches when the first witness is sworn."

source: http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-rights/when-double-jeopardy-protections-take-hold.html

Exactly!

I believe the question Gia asked was if LE have so much evidence (as had been said in the post she replied to) then why has there been no arrest? There IS no risk of double jeopardy, so it doesn't seem like that's the reason, IMO.

 

[persimmon]

It sounds like charges could be changed or amended all the way up until trial (or until a plea agreement is accepted by the court). Defendants have a right to a speedy trial as well, so the case needs to be solid before charges are pressed, IMO. Also, prosecutors don't want a hung jury or a mistrial. It's better to get it right from the get-go.

Yes...just as they can be plead down which often happens, charges can also be more severe. However, one of the first phases is Discovery where both sides must disclose what they have. Therefore, evidence aquired after that fact complicates the situation. It's far more prudent to have all your ducks in a row before somebody is arrested and arraigned on charges.

 

[giagreen]

I'm neither a police officer nor do I have inside access to their investigation, but SB has stated he wants to avoid a verdict error.

And LE has been wrong before many of times. The FBI even has been.

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

 

[persimmon]

Exactly!

I believe the question Gia asked was if LE have so much evidence (as had been said in the post she replied to) then why has there been no arrest? There IS no risk of double jeopardy, so it doesn't seem like that's the reason, IMO.

No I never said they have "so much evidence." I said that LE has stated they know what happened to DeOrr and where he is. They have stated the parent have repeatedly failed to be honest. That is very different than saying they have so much evidence.

 

[persimmon]

And LE has been wrong before many of times. The FBI even has been.

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

Every profession has examples of honest mistakes, but this moved with extreme caution and SB defended them for a long time maybe hoping they would divulge what they knew. At the point where professionals make a public determination and statement, it's reasonable for the public following the case to then use that as evidence to speculate.

 

[StarrChance]

From VDK first interview , I have a feeling poor Deor Jr is on the mountain in another area in a creek, if he is ever found after such a length of time it might be impossible to prove foul play

http://🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬.blogspot.com.au/2015/08/deorr-kunz-jr-examining-change-of.html

Um, they finally, yesterday, we were able to put that TO REST and have HC Sheriff Dave and the rest of the sheriffs have put out that there is, they assured me, there is 100% chance that he is not anywhere in THAT water, around THAT water. They have torn THAT creek upside down and in and out. The divers have gone through with wetsuits, along with the helicopter - that was the world's most advanced search and rescue helicopter, volunteered out of Montana, and those guys were just amazing, the accuracy they had with the night vision ability it has and the heat range it can see,, they were - . The one guy, I can't remember his name, um, I've met so many people, so many good people, but he was - his own safety, he was, he was more or less,, he was strapped in, he was on the side of that helicopter, looking, and I - he was looking down. I remember them telling me they asked search and rescue to look over, because there was an orange insect repellant can, they think by the bank, and they were DEAD on, that's what it was, how accurate these guys are.

 

[ILOKAL]

No I never said they have "so much evidence." I said that LE has stated they know what happened to DeOrr and where he is. They have stated the parent have repeatedly failed to be honest. That is very different than saying they have so much evidence.

In reply to Gia's question asking why there have been no arrests, it certainly can't be because of a risk of double jeopardy as SB has stated. That causes me to question what the real reason is? Maybe it's because SB has also said he has no clue. I've followed along on this thread and many have stated, accurately IMO, but for some "less than truthful" inconsistencies in polygraph irrelevant or relevant questions, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that these parents harmed their precious son in any way. That to me seems like the reason the parents haven't been arrested.

 

[Butler]

When does jeopardy attach anyway?

At the conclusion of the case. Most often once either the jury or judge reaches a verdict and that verdict is made official.

 

[persimmon]

Hmmm, I believe police need probable cause to stop someone, but is it probable cause that is needed to arrest someone?

The probable cause would be necessary to get a judge's signature on a warrant. Generally, at that stage they do not have enough for an arrest and the search process serves two purposes: searching for evidence and interrorgating suspects in the hopes they give themselves up. An unannounced search can sufficiently frighten somebody into admitting guilt.

The arrest phase is past probable cause searching. Once they feel they have enough evidence, a warrant is issued and arrest at any time or place is imminent.

 

[persimmon]

In reply to Gia's question asking why there have been no arrests, it certainly can't be because of a risk of double jeopardy as SB has stated. That causes me to question what the real reason is? Maybe it's because SB has also said he has no clue. I've followed along on this thread and many have stated, accurately IMO, but for some "less than truthful" inconsistencies in polygraph irrelevant or relevant questions, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that these parents harmed their precious son in any way. That to me seems like the reason the parents haven't been arrested.

I don't follow you. Why cant that be the reason? I thought is was a strange answer and I found it weak but I do not think it cannot be the cause.

 

[Rayemonde]

This case illustrates really well why LE and the DA need to have all their ducks in a row before arresting and charging someone (moo):

Aaron Michael Fisher is a free man, after admitting he forcibly sodomized his five-month-old daughter in 2009.

On Friday, Oct. 23, the case against Fisher—who was charged with two felonies for forcible sodomy of a child—was dismissed by Cole County Circuit Judge Patricia Joyce. She agreed with Fisher’s defense attorney that the confessed rapist’s Constitutional right to a speedy trial had been violated, and after six years of legal proceedings, he walked free.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...sted-for-child-abuse-infant-in-hospital/page2

 

[persimmon]

I believe SB when he said he was troubled by the number of people donating money to the family without knowing their status. Im sure he had other reasons for making his statement but that was one he provided. He then backed up his statement with examples of their dishonesty.

In no way did he try to create drama. He issued a balanced statement. Early on, SB cited physical evidence so I am assuming there are more reasons we are not aware of.

 

[Butler]

Exactly!

I believe the question Gia asked was if LE have so much evidence (as had been said in the post she replied to) then why has there been no arrest? There IS no risk of double jeopardy, so it doesn't seem like that's the reason, IMO.

Because once they charge a person they then have to prove that charge. There are many rules regarding the procedure in a court. The defendant has a right to a speedy trial and if the prosecution doesn't have it right they don't get a second chance to try the case. Unless there is a mistrial, then the prosecution can try the case again, but that is most often due to a procedural error.

For instance, they arrest and charge VDK and/or JM for murder, not only do they have to prove they did it but there was a murder in the first place. If it was an accidental death, then they could not prove murder. If it was an accidental death or due to negligence then a charge of manslaughter may be easier to prove and a more appropriate charge.

TITLE 18
CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS
CHAPTER 40
HOMICIDE​

18-4001. MURDER DEFINED. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being including, but not limited to, a human embryo or fetus, with malice aforethought or the intentional application of torture to a human being, which results in the death of a human being. Torture is the intentional infliction of extreme and prolonged pain with the intent to cause suffering. It shall also be torture to inflict on a human being extreme and prolonged acts of brutality irrespective of proof of intent to cause suffering. The death of a human being caused by such torture is murder irrespective of proof of specific intent to kill; torture causing death shall be deemed the equivalent of intent to kill.

TITLE 18
CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS
CHAPTER 40
HOMICIDE​

18-4006. MANSLAUGHTER DEFINED. Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being including, but not limited to, a human embryo or fetus, without malice. It is of three (3) kinds:
(1) Voluntary -- upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.
(2) Involuntary -- in the perpetration of or attempt to perpetrate any unlawful act, other than those acts specified in section 18-4003(d), Idaho Code; or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection; or in the operation of any firearm or deadly weapon in a reckless, careless or negligent manner which produces death.
(3) Vehicular -- in which the operation of a motor vehicle is a significant cause contributing to the death because of:
(a) The commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to a felony, with gross negligence; or
(b) The commission of a violation of section 18-8004 or 18-8006, Idaho Code; or
(c) The commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to a felony, without gross negligence.

http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH40.htm

 

[persimmon]

This case illustrates really well why LE and the DA need to have all their ducks in a row before arresting and charging someone (moo):



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...sted-for-child-abuse-infant-in-hospital/page2

Exactly. Absurd as it is it happens that a sicko can walk free even after confessing to such an act. Unfortunately, it will take another child's suffering to get this guy where he belongs.

 

[ILOKAL]

I don't follow you. Why cant that be the reason? I thought is was a strange answer and I found it weak but I do not think it cannot be the cause.

Because jeopardy has nothing to do with the arrest of someone or the charging documents, which are subject to change. Now, maybe he meant something else, but the risk of double jeopardy is what he said, and that makes no sense, IMO?

 

[2Hope4]

I think they are waiting to see if Deorr's body is found before filing charges. Once someone is charged, the clock starts ticking for the defendant's right to a speedy trial. If LE presses charges now, discovery process starts. LE must turn over to the defense whatever evidence they have. If the evidence is largely circumstantial, and not lots of forensics, or hard evidence, a jury may find the defendant 'not guilty'. Say a week later the body is found, and there's evidence of a murder, or Deorr is found living with someone else, well, charges can't be placed on them. They wouldn't be able to retry them just because new evidence is available.

Thus in several cases I'm following right now, an arrest hasn't been made because time is on the side of the state or prosecution. In several cases, the belief is the victim is deceased, but haven't been located. LE realizes they can't save the victim, but they can wait and hope for more evidence to have a more solid case in court.

I'm still not convinced that DeOrr didn't wander though. There's been way too many cases where drones, dogs, LE, and multiple searches have found nothing, and then an everyday citizen finds the body. There's been cases that a body of water was repeatedly searched, LE convinced the body wasn't in that body of water, only for a fisherman, or someone else to find the body months later. (Biggest one I'm remembering is Teleka Patrick. That small pond right where her car was located. It was sonar searched, and multiple searches. Yet months later, a fisherman found her in that same pond.)

As grown up as those woods were where they were camping, and all the downed trees, briars, rocks, etc in the area, I'm not convinced his small body couldn't still be there. Possibly even within yards of where searchers have searched.

While an abduction seems impossible, I don't think it can be completely ruled out either. I just watched some youtube videos of different cases, and in one, there was a 3 minute time frame in which the child was abducted!! THREE MINUTES!!!! Granted it was a child waiting on a bus, and on the side of a road instead of the wilderness, yet it happened. There was also a case where a stranger scoped out a home, killed everyone but the two children, and abducted them, he had them both at a campground, and killed the little boy. The little girl survived and was seen at a pizza place I believe it was, and the waitress recognized her, and called police. Shasta? I think. People were stunned it was a stranger!

I also haven't ruled out the parents are involved. I truly just don't know what has happened to DeOrr, but think of him often. One day I hope we have answers!!!!

JMO!

 

[persimmon]

I think they are waiting to see if Deorr's body is found before filing charges. Once someone is charged, the clock starts ticking for the defendant's right to a speedy trial. If LE presses charges now, discovery process starts. LE must turn over to the defense whatever evidence they have. If the evidence is largely circumstantial, and not lots of forensics, or hard evidence, a jury may find the defendant 'not guilty'. Say a week later the body is found, and there's evidence of a murder, or Deorr is found living with someone else, well, charges can't be placed on them. They wouldn't be able to retry them just because new evidence is available.

Thus in several cases I'm following right now, an arrest hasn't been made because time is on the side of the state or prosecution. In several cases, the belief is the victim is deceased, but haven't been located. LE realizes they can't save the victim, but they can wait and hope for more evidence to have a more solid case in court.

I'm still not convinced that DeOrr didn't wander though. There's been way too many cases where drones, dogs, LE, and multiple searches have found nothing, and then an everyday citizen finds the body. There's been cases that a body of water was repeatedly searched, LE convinced the body wasn't in that body of water, only for a fisherman, or someone else to find the body months later. (Biggest one I'm remembering is Teleka Patrick. That small pond right where her car was located. It was sonar searched, and multiple searches. Yet months later, a fisherman found her in that same pond.)

As grown up as those woods were where they were camping, and all the downed trees, briars, rocks, etc in the area, I'm not convinced his small body couldn't still be there. Possibly even within yards of where searchers have searched.

While an abduction seems impossible, I don't think it can be completely ruled out either. I just watched some youtube videos of different cases, and in one, there was a 3 minute time frame in which the child was abducted!! THREE MINUTES!!!! Granted it was a child waiting on a bus, and on the side of a road instead of the wilderness, yet it happened. There was also a case where a stranger scoped out a home, killed everyone but the two children, and abducted them, he had them both at a campground, and killed the little boy. The little girl survived and was seen at a pizza place I believe it was, and the waitress recognized her, and called police. Shasta? I think. People were stunned it was a stranger!

I also haven't ruled out the parents are involved. I truly just don't know what has happened to DeOrr, but think of him often. One day I hope we have answers!!!!

JMO!

The second case you cited is the most disturbing case I have ever encountered. I wish I could go back and never read the details of that crime because it deepy effected me. It too took place in Idaho. If you haven't heard of it I warn you not to look into it. It haunts me to this day.

 

[Aunt_Tulip]

Dylan and Shasta Groene! I remember people saying there was no way it could be a stranger, no way it could be just one person, what a horrible, horrible, crime. I was just reading an article from late 2015 about Shasta, she's 18 now.

 

[haven71]

If there were drugs involved I'm sure that would have come out by now. These wild idea tossed around that DeOrr could have got into mom & dad's stash and somehow overdosed, or that JM & VDK were high and did something to hurt DeOrr, or that all/some of the 4 spent Thursday night getting drunk at the Silver Dollar and had some wild sex party. Or the one that maybe DeOrr was taken or given as payment for a drug debt.



I haven't read every thread, just too many, but I read the media thread and there is nothing in that thread that indicates any of the above is true. I believe it is irresponsible to post such things as though they are fact. I get that WS is here to follow cases and discuss & debate theories but I feel we should base those theories on what is known about the case.

haven71 ~~ while I quoted your post, many posters have thrown out some wild ideas, so my little rant certainly is not directed at you.

"Call me...irresponsible." Remember that song, or am I showing my age?

I agree, there is nothing solid to go on where drug use is concerned. I think that we've wracked our brains a million times over and entertained countless scenarios, even with no evidence to back up what we discuss.

I guess it's bound to happen when we have very little facts to go on.