ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[ILOKAL]

No, your assertion that the interpretation of the exams administered to VDK and JM resulted in the FBI or LE reading them as "no opinion." I do not recall SB stating that the results were "no opinion."

Bowerman said the results were inconclusive which is the same as "no opinion". There are many sources for that information. Here's one:

http://www.pinow.com/investigations/polygraph-lie-detector

 

[neesaki]

And the result was inconclusive, aka "no opinion" on all nine tests. Must be a reason! imoo

Oh dear, I think I'm getting lost. I thought that GGP's and IR's tests were the ones that were described as being inconclusive. Can you tell me where you found that ? I haven't been able to. TIA

All I have found thus far is this from Tricia's interview with Sheriff B:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot/page4
What changed your mind from the last time you were on the show not that long ago and you were pretty emphatic that, Hey, the parents they’re not, No, No, No, don’t – they’re fine, leave them alone. What changed?

02:13
SB: Well, after a pretty intense investigation and what I consider a lengthy investigation, we asked all the parties involved to take polygraphs. We were expecting a couple of them to come back inconclusive, and that would be the grandfather and the grandfather’s friend. However, the first polygraph indicated that the parents were being less than truthful, and that concerned me, but you know I take polygraphs with a certain grain of salt so… I sent out their interviews to the FBI, their Behavioral Team. They examined them and found multiple inconsistencies, and so we asked them to re-polygraph, and they said they would, and the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th polygraphs, the same conclusion was made by the experts that they are being less than truthful. They know what happened and where Deorr is currently.

03:17TG: Are you certain that there’s no way Deorr could be in the water anywhere? That’s a big question that a lot of people have because …Couldn’t Deorr’s body be stuck under a rock or just possibly something like that happened?

03:35
SB: You know I dwelled on that fact for a long time but I have to trust the experts. They say when both people failed the same questions multiple times, there is something there and they’re being less than truthful, so I have to trust the experts.

19:41
TG: Exactly! One of our members said, “I noticed in your first comment this week, regarding the parents, you originally said they had been deceptive and then you changed that to less than truthful. Can you explain the reason for that change in wording?” Now, there could be absolutely no reason but that’s our Websleuths members, they get right down to the nitty gritty and really want the littlest details.

20:07
SB: Absolutely. I didn’t want them to think their whole polygraph was deceptive. It wasn’t. They passed portions of it, but the portions on whether they knew where Deorr was or knew what happened to him, they were not being…they were being less than truthful . So that’s why I changed it. I didn’t want them to think…normally you think when someone is deceptive everything they told you is a lie but that’s not the case.

 

[ILOKAL]

I don't want into the mind games of trying to debate that nine polygraphs with the same results MIGHT be saying something. But Bowerman said the tests showed "deception." Then he came back and changed it to "less than truthful" because he wanted to be clear that, while parents repeatedly and consistently failed (were deceptive) on the questions about their knowledge of what happened to their son and where he is, they were truthful in other parts of the test. That is my understanding and in part why they are considered suspects, along with not being able to tell the same story twice in interviews.


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I explained the grading system, if you will, a bit in Post #634. DI (deception indicated) and NDI (no deception indicated) is how polygraphs as graded. The area between those two is "graded" as inconclusive which is also known as "no opinion". If Bowerman had let his statement that the parents polygraphs came back showing deception, that would mean they had failed. So he couldn't use that word because they didn't fail because their polygraphs didn't fall in the range of deception indicated.

http://www.pinow.com/investigations/polygraph-lie-detector

 

[katydid23]

I explained the grading system, if you will, a bit in Post #634. DI (deception indicated) and NDI (no deception indicated) is how polygraphs as graded. The area between those two is "graded" as inconclusive which is also known as "no opinion". If Bowerman had let his statement that the parents polygraphs came back showing deception, that would mean they had failed. So he couldn't use that word because they didn't fail because their polygraphs didn't fall in the range of deception indicated.

http://www.pinow.com/investigations/polygraph-lie-detector

Did he say the parents were not being deceptive? I thought he called them out for changing their stories multiple times, for being inconsistent and 'less than truthful' when it comes to where their missing toddler was.

 

[ILOKAL]

Except that they consistently failed on the questions about what happened to DeOrr.


"Bowerman says portions of polygraph tests administered to Kunz and Mitchell have come back “less than truthful” – including questions about knowing what happened to DeOrr, why the child disappeared and where the toddler is located."

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/01/lemhi-sheriff-deorrs-parents-have-been-less-than-truthful-are-suspects-in-childs-disappearance/

Yes, I realize that. But the physiological reactions to the relevant questions is based on their physiological reactions to the control questions (which establishes the baseline). IMHO

 

[katydid23]

Yes, I realize that. But the physiological reactions to the relevant questions (which establishes the baseline) is based on their physiological reactions to the control questions. IMHO

EXACTLY. The parents have been formally asked the same questions four different times. And neither of them could rise to the 'honesty' zone in any of the polygraph sessions, when it comes to the questions about their son's disappearance.

 

[CatsInTheCradle]

Except that they consistently failed on the questions about what happened to DeOrr.


"Bowerman says portions of polygraph tests administered to Kunz and Mitchell have come back “less than truthful” – including questions about knowing what happened to DeOrr, why the child disappeared and where the toddler is located."

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/01/lemhi-sheriff-deorrs-parents-have-been-less-than-truthful-are-suspects-in-childs-disappearance/

Imo knowing they did not tell the truth on those questions is all that is important. I don't care if they passed questions like "is your name whatever"; "do you live at wherever"; did you go camping with gpa and IR". They lied about the most important thing imo.

 

[MBK]

That photo of little Deorr, so alive, with so much personality, sitting in the restaurant with the little t-shirt reading "I'm just like my Mom I never shut up" . . . is so sad. Mom sure knew when to shut up, now didn't she. We don't know too much about Deorr . . his parents didn't care to share that much . . . but he's captured all our hearts. I pray that he is found and that justice is done.

 

[zencompass]

I hope there is a break in the investigation soon. It has been far too long. Maybe tomorrow there will be a press release.

Sending love and prayers out to the loved ones of little DeOrr. You need to be found, little DeOrr.

 

[katydid23]

Dee10's post 508 on this thread. She has the quote.

I just went back to that post. Here is what the sheriff ADDED to that comment:

Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told KTVB that Jessica Mitchell and Deorr Kunz Sr. have been "less than truthful" since the investigation began.

"They refused to give us any further information to clear up the untruthfulness and they've changed their story on numerous occasions," he said.

Bowerman said he believes DeOrr's parents know where he is and whether he is dead or alive.

"They're not able to tell the same story twice because they've told so many stories, you know, getting changes in the story all the time," he said.

Bowerman says when he confronted the parents, they refused to give any additional information to clear up their inconsistencies.

"I'm getting a lot of calls from the public - should we donate money to help find Deorr Kunz? And I can't honestly say yes or no knowing that the family is less than truthful. I think it's only fair that the public knows that they are suspects that we are continuing our investigation and that they aren't being truthful."

 

[ILOKAL]

Did he say the parents were not being deceptive? I thought he called them out for changing their stories multiple times, for being inconsistent and 'less than truthful' when it comes to where their missing toddler was.

His first statement when naming them suspects stated their polys had shown deception. Shortly after the story came out the word deception was changed to less than truthful.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

His first statement when naming them suspects stated their polys had shown deception. Shortly after the story came out the word deception was changed to less than truthful.

And his choice of words all mean the same thing to me. THEY ARE LYING.

 

[Dee10]

Dee10's post 508 on this thread. She has the quote.

That wasn't a direct quote though, someone posted this direct quote today which makes more sense:

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/01...disappearance/


[FONT=&quot]"Bowerman says portions of polygraph tests administered to Kunz and Mitchell have come back “less than truthful” – including questions about knowing what happened to DeOrr, why the child disappeared and where the toddler is located."

[/FONT]

 

[Donjeta]

I don't care about the polys unless they can be used to elicit a confession but it concerns me that the sheriff said the parents were unable to tell the same story twice.

 

[persimmon]

His first statement when naming them suspects stated their polys had shown deception. Shortly after the story came out the word deception was changed to less than truthful.

We covered this an hour ago. His change reflected his desire to convey to the media and public the fact that there were some questions they answered honestly, but the relevant questions they did not. In essence their honest answers do not matter but I assume SB wanted to present as fair and unbiased description of the results as possible.

 

[neesaki]

Dee10's post 508 on this thread. She has the quote.

Do you have a link that they are still cooperating after being named suspects?

This is what the Sheriff said & he noted the difference:

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/crime...ance/79301014/

Bowerman saysportions of polygraph tests administered to Kunz and Mitchell have come back inconclusive - including questions about knowing what happened to DeOrr, why the child disappeared and where the toddler is located.


Bowerman says polygraphs administered to Reinwand and Walton have been inconclusive, but those results were expected because of both men's mental states.

Something appears to be wrong, either it's the wrong link or the quote was misquoted as there's not a statement like that in Dee's link. Though I did find another one that is that exact statement with the exception that Bowerman doesn't use the term "inconclusive" regarding the parents poly's, he uses "less than truthful".

Idk, maybe it's in another article / link somewhere, I just haven't found it.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/0...ruthful-are-suspects-in-childs-disappearance/

Bowerman says portions of polygraph tests administered to Kunz and Mitchell have come back “less than truthful” – including questions about knowing what happened to DeOrr, why the child disappeared and where the toddler is located.“Their statements don’t match, and it’s frustrating because we have absolutely no idea where DeOrr is,” Bowerman says. “There have been so many inconsistencies that it’s hard to tell the truth from everything they’ve said.”
Bowerman says polygraphs administered to Reinwand and Walton have been inconclusive, but those results were expected because of both men’s mental states.

 

[giagreen]

That photo of little Deorr, so alive, with so much personality, sitting in the restaurant with the little t-shirt reading "I'm just like my Mom I never shut up" . . . is so sad. Mom sure knew when to shut up, now didn't she. We don't know too much about Deorr . . his parents didn't care to share that much . . . but he's captured all our hearts. I pray that he is found and that justice is done.

What exactly do you want them to share about him? I mean I know that his favorite song was the hot dog dance from the mickey mouse club house and he called it the "puppy dance". There has actually been a lot spoken about him and what kind of little guy he was.

But not to pick you apart but how do you know they havent shared much about him? They might have talked about him for three hours today but you wouldn't know because your not important to them. And that's not ment in a bad way but they obviously have a lot going on.

And if someone loses a child (doesn't matter how) it's probably hard for them to talk about them. It would be emotional to even say his name. Give them some time to grieve. They have lost a child, have been convicted by the media, named suspects, and have some weirdo reversing their speech. And you want them to talk more freely about Deorr to people just waiting to pick apart everything they say? That doesn't make much sense.

Anywho, do you have a link for the assumptions you've stated as fact?

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

 

[ILOKAL]

Are you saying they lied on the control questions? But why would they?

First of all, I changed my post. I posted it backwards. The answers to the control questions establish the baseline.

Upthread, someone (don't recall who) gave an example of a question they believe would have been asked. It wasn't specified by the poster if it would have been a control question or a relevant question. Anyway, the question used in the example was, "Have you ever abused your son?" For purposes of discussion, let's change that question to, "have you ever spanked your son"? Now the examiner believes that most people have spanked their children, however, when a person is being examined regarding the disappearance of their son, they are concerned with their answer to that question and how it might reflect upon them.

 

[Donjeta]

https://ksl.com/?sid=38268549&nid=148&fm=most_popular&s_cid=article_popular-9
It's here, anyway.

Something appears to be wrong, either it's the wrong link or the quote was misquoted as there's not a statement like that in Dee's link. Though I did find another one that is that exact statement with the exception that Bowerman doesn't use the term "inconclusive" regarding the parents poly's, he uses "less than truthful".

Idk, maybe it's in another article / link somewhere, I just haven't found it.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/0...ruthful-are-suspects-in-childs-disappearance/

 

[neesaki]

https://ksl.com/?sid=38268549&nid=148&fm=most_popular&s_cid=article_popular-9
It's here, anyway.

Thank you Donjeta, I was getting tired of looking! :wave: What's interesting is which one did he really say? I don't think it was both because they're the same articles except for that. Ok, I'm going to go check out the video.