ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[Little Ol Me]

After reading several sites on polygraphs, including the excellent one you have shared, I am providing a link to one I feel does a more than adequate job of explains the various types of plus, how and when they are used, as well as explaining the difference in control questions, relevant questions, non-relevant questions, as well as questions that should not produce a physiological response at all. It might offer a better understanding of how the parents might have answered some questions and why they had inconclusive results on every test.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/ota/varieties.html

Here's another good one from the American Psychological Assn:

http://www.apa.org/research/action/polygraph.aspx

I believe you linked this before. I know I read through it and found it informative.
I'll have to read through it a couple more times, :blushing:, before understanding fully,

 

[ILOKAL]

I believe you linked this before. I know I read through it and found it informative.
I'll have to read through it a couple more times, :blushing:, before understanding fully,

I did. I thought some may have missed it and might be interested. They are both very informative. You're right though, you have to read them more than once because it does get confusing.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

DN: Sheriff Bowerman's reason for naming them as suspects seems to hinge entirely on the inconclusive polygraph results. Has Klein performed an independent polygraph or would he consider doing so?
Klein Investigations and Consulting Let's be clear - there has been 9 polygraph tests given to the parents, and four to the other two on the camp grounds. There has NEVER been any contradiction in this. As well, the parents have given over 11 statements to LE, FBI and our firm. Any other polygraph tests at this point would be a waste of time.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot/page5

 

[Jackeee]

After reading several sites on polygraphs, including the excellent one you have shared, I am providing a link to one I feel does a more than adequate job of explains the various types of plus, how and when they are used, as well as explaining the difference in control questions, relevant questions, non-relevant questions, as well as questions that should not produce a physiological response at all. It might offer a better understanding of how the parents might have answered some questions and why they had inconclusive results on every test.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/ota/varieties.html

Here's another good one from the American Psychological Assn:

http://www.apa.org/research/action/polygraph.aspx

I scanned through the first one and realized that I hope I never have to take a polygraph. Before I read it I was thinking that I had nothing to hide, well not much anyway. I consider myself average. A couple of the 'have you ever.......?" questions set off little pings in my brain. I've never been in trouble with the law, but there are just some questions I wouldn't want to answer. Anyone else feel this way? 🙊

 

[The Apparition]

I scanned through the first one and realized that I hope I never have to take a polygraph. Before I read it I was thinking that I had nothing to hide, well not much anyway. I consider myself average. A couple of the 'have you ever.......?" questions set off little pings in my brain. I've never been in trouble with the law, but there are just some questions I wouldn't want to answer. Anyone else feel this way? 

I think anyone getting a poly would be nervous. I made sure to NOT read about them when I was getting one, because I didn't want to doubt the process. I wanted to go in there with a "the truth shall set me free attitude". Personally speaking the questions I was asked were mostly very relevant to the case. They weren't looking to see if I cheated on my taxes or smoked weed when I was 20. What I found the most disturbing was the chest band they put on you. It squeezes your chest and makes you very prone to trying to breath too shallow and than taking bigger breathes because you are breathing all messed up. It's kind of like asking someone how many times they blink in a minute, it makes you think about something you normally do without any thought.

They paced out my poly so there were no stress questions interspersed with ones that involved my case. Since I had nothing to hide none of the questions really bothered me so much, but I was upset how many times the examiner said ok again. It took like 1.5 hours. The absolute worst thing was the end of the exam though. They iced me in a room for about 45 mins then the examiner (a state policeman/poly expert) came back in and told me I failed bad. He said we know you did something to your wife and kid and you are in big trouble. I can't describe how floored I was, and the feeling of all my blood draining out of my body. I said to the guy, I'm not talking to you I am calling my lawyer right now. I absolutely soiled myself, I remember my hand shaking so badly I could barely get my cell out of my pocket. He tried stopping me from calling my lawyer but I literally couldn't hear him at that point. When I finally started listening to him again he was repeating over and over "you passed sorry, that is the final test". He told me seeing how I reacted to being falsely accused was the final question just in case I somehow was a zen monk and able to fool the poly.

When I told a very friendly FBI agent about the poly he was really mad also. He said I can't believe the State Police pulled that Bull---- with you. I agree as to this day I still remember all the visions of being falsely arrested that ran through my head.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

I scanned through the first one and realized that I hope I never have to take a polygraph. Before I read it I was thinking that I had nothing to hide, well not much anyway. I consider myself average. A couple of the 'have you ever.......?" questions set off little pings in my brain. I've never been in trouble with the law, but there are just some questions I wouldn't want to answer. Anyone else feel this way? ��

I had to take a poly years ago as part of the final interview process for a job in retail. One of the questions, obviously, was did I ever steal anything. My answer was a firm "No." The polygrapher then went on to ask if that was true...didn't I ever even steal like six cents that might have belonged to my parents that I might have found laying around the house. Again, my answer was "No." Even though I was telling the truth, I started to get a little squidgy because I was afraid he wouldn't believe me and that maybe my internal mechanisms were getting heated up from the fear of that. I definitely wouldn't want to have to take one in a disaster situation for the same reason; being afraid I wouldn't be believed and my body reacting from that stress.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

I think anyone getting a poly would be nervous. I made sure to NOT read about them when I was getting one, because I didn't want to doubt the process. I wanted to go in there with a "the truth shall set me free attitude". Personally speaking the questions I was asked were mostly very relevant to the case. They weren't looking to see if I cheated on my taxes or smoked weed when I was 20. What I found the most disturbing was the chest band they put on you. It squeezes your chest and makes you very prone to trying to breath too shallow and than taking bigger breathes because you are breathing all messed up. It's kind of like asking someone how many times they blink in a minute, it makes you think about something you normally do without any thought.

They paced out my poly so there were no stress questions interspersed with ones that involved my case. Since I had nothing to hide none of the questions really bothered me so much, but I was upset how many times the examiner said ok again. It took like 1.5 hours. The absolute worst thing was the end of the exam though. They iced me in a room for about 45 mins then the examiner (a state policeman/poly expert) came back in and told me I failed bad. He said we know you did something to your wife and kid and you are in big trouble. I can't describe how floored I was, and the feeling of all my blood draining out of my body. I said to the guy, I'm not talking to you I am calling my lawyer right now. I absolutely soiled myself, I remember my hand shaking so badly I could barely get my cell out of my pocket. He tried stopping me from calling my lawyer but I literally couldn't hear him at that point. When I finally started listening to him again he was repeating over and over "you passed sorry, that is the final test". He told me seeing how I reacted to being falsely accused was the final question just in case I somehow was a zen monk and able to fool the poly.

When I told a very friendly FBI agent about the poly he was really mad also. He said I can't believe the State Police pulled that Bull---- with you. I agree as to this day I still remember all the visions of being falsely arrested that ran through my head.

My god! How horrible that must have been for you!

 

[ILOKAL]

I scanned through the first one and realized that I hope I never have to take a polygraph. Before I read it I was thinking that I had nothing to hide, well not much anyway. I consider myself average. A couple of the 'have you ever.......?" questions set off little pings in my brain. I've never been in trouble with the law, but there are just some questions I wouldn't want to answer. Anyone else feel this way? 🙊

After reading that, the good news is, Jackeee, you never DO have to take one!

 

[haven71]

After reading several sites on polygraphs, including the excellent one you have shared, I am providing a link to one I feel does a more than adequate job of explains the various types of plus, how and when they are used, as well as explaining the difference in control questions, relevant questions, non-relevant questions, as well as questions that should not produce a physiological response at all. It might offer a better understanding of how the parents might have answered some questions and why they had inconclusive results on every test.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/ota/varieties.html

Here's another good one from the American Psychological Assn:

http://www.apa.org/research/action/polygraph.aspx

Thanks! Off to reading now...

 

[Kairi'sMom]

I scanned through the first one and realized that I hope I never have to take a polygraph. Before I read it I was thinking that I had nothing to hide, well not much anyway. I consider myself average. A couple of the 'have you ever.......?" questions set off little pings in my brain. I've never been in trouble with the law, but there are just some questions I wouldn't want to answer. Anyone else feel this way? 

I took a polygraph many years ago for a job.
The pre-test interview included all the questions I would be asked during the polygraph. The polygrapher and I discussed concerns I had about the questions. For instance, one question that concerned me was, "Have you ever stolen anything?" I told the polygrapher about how when I was a little kid I admitted stealing an item from a store and my parents made me return the item and apologize to the store person. He told me I did not have to count that incident as a theft and could truthfully answer "No" to the question. Irrelevant questions used for baseline were my name, birthdate and marriage status. He also explained the polygraph procedure in detail and asked about general health, drug/alcohol use, medications used, etc.

The test itself began with irrelevant questions and then proceeded with all the questions we discussed in the pre-test. There were no surprise questions, no "trick" questions. All were "Yes" or "No" questions that he asked me in the pre-test. It was very straight-forward.

 

[BeeFriendly]

Perhaps it wasn't thrown away. They probably checked it out and realized it had nothing to do with the case in Leadore, IMO.

It was AFTER this woman's report that Vilt claimed (in his interview) that he called DK and asked (I guess for the first time?) if he had noticed any cars in the parking lot at the Stage Stop, and Vilt claimed DK described the Rube using the exact same language as the woman in Swan Valley. I think it's more possible that Vilt wanted so badly to create a lead he made up that DK said that or he suggested it to him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And let us not forget this woman didn't come out of the wood work until 3 days after Vilt offered a $10,000 reward.

 

[Hatfield]

That's what I thought too. If I remember correctly, VDK had 4 and JM had 5?

That could be but wouldn't we think that GGP and IR would have gotten tested as well?

The comment they made about 9 tests confused me.

 

[Hatfield]

I took a polygraph many years ago for a job.
The pre-test interview included all the questions I would be asked during the polygraph. The polygrapher and I discussed concerns I had about the questions. For instance, one question that concerned me was, "Have you ever stolen anything?" I told the polygrapher about how when I was a little kid I admitted stealing an item from a store and my parents made me return the item and apologize to the store person. He told me I did not have to count that incident as a theft and could truthfully answer "No" to the question. Irrelevant questions used for baseline were my name, birthdate and marriage status. He also explained the polygraph procedure in detail and asked about general health, drug/alcohol use, medications used, etc.

The test itself began with irrelevant questions and then proceeded with all the questions we discussed in the pre-test. There were no surprise questions, no "trick" questions. All were "Yes" or "No" questions that he asked me in the pre-test. It was very straight-forward.

That is interesting. I guess what would bother me would be like that minor theft question as a child because during the actual test if we answer No then our mind would immediately realize well technically we did steal something as a child and wouldn't the lie detector test pickup that we were lying?

I suppose even if it did it is probably a relatively minor spike since it is so trivial. Those tests are probably looking for glaring inconsistencies where the needle jumps off the chart. LOL

Like if we had just robbed a bank last week and they ask us if we stole anything and we said NO. The needle would probably jump so far the guys lie detector machine would vibrate out of his lap and onto the floor. LOL

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

And let us not forget this woman didn't come out of the wood work until 3 days after Vilt offered a $10,000 reward.

IIRC she claims she tried/succeeded in reporting it to Lemhi County on July 19th? Don't know if that was confirmed true, though.

 

[ClaireNC]

That could be but wouldn't we think that GGP and IR would have gotten tested as well?

The comment they made about 9 tests confused me.

This has been answered in the last two pages. It was 9 polys for the two parents plus 2 each for IR an GGP, so a total of 13.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

After reading that, the good news is, Jackeee, you never DO have to take one!

But remember if you don't take one you might be looked upon with suspicion! Crazy...

 

[ClaireNC]

IIRC she claims she tried/succeeded in reporting it to Lemhi County on July 19th? Don't know if that was confirmed true, though.

Yep, July 19th according to this article: http://www.localnews8.com/news/new-leads-in-missing-deorr-kunz-case/35276162
"The woman told Local News 8 she reported the man to law enforcement in Lemhi County July 19 after hearing reports of Kunz's disappearance. " IIRC, That was before the reward was offered.

 

[Hatfield]

This has been answered in the last two pages. It was 9 polys for the two parents plus 2 each for IR an GGP, so a total of 13.

Thanks Seeing that now.

So in total there was a lot of tests given. Wow. That sure is a lot between all of them. Ive never heard of any case where this many tests would be given to all the parties.

 

[desert-blue]

Yep, July 19th according to this article: http://www.localnews8.com/news/new-leads-in-missing-deorr-kunz-case/35276162
"The woman told Local News 8 she reported the man to law enforcement in Lemhi County July 19 after hearing reports of Kunz's disappearance. " IIRC, That was before the reward was offered.

I wonder if LE in Lemhi County have confirmed that?

 

[ILOKAL]

That is interesting. I guess what would bother me would be like that minor theft question as a child because during the actual test if we answer No then our mind would immediately realize well technically we did steal something as a child and wouldn't the lie detector test pickup that we were lying?

I suppose even if it did it is probably a relatively minor spike since it is so trivial. Those tests are probably looking for glaring inconsistencies where the needle jumps off the chart. LOL

Like if we had just robbed a bank last week and they ask us if we stole anything and we said NO. The needle would probably jump so far the guys lie detector machine would vibrate out of his lap and onto the floor. LOL

Kari'smom's question, "have you ever stolen anything?" was a control question which are as broad as possible. They are intended to concern the examinee so much (which is what the examiner wants), that the physiological reaction indicates deception to the same degree as an untruthful answer to the relevant questions will. That's why control questions are so broad. They are questions that will worry the examinee either because they really cannot answer "no" or because they are worried about answering "no". The irrelevant questions, "Is you name Susie?" and "Is today Tuesday?" are expected to not have a physiological response at all and are used as the baseline. This is all explained in the links I provided a few pages back. No Deception is Indicated when the physiological response to the control questions is much greater than the physiological response to the relevant questions. I hope that makes sense. Deception IS indicated when the physiological response to the control questions is like the physiological response to the relevant questions.