ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #24

[pepelepolecat]

So I'm sure this was hashed to death a bazillion threads ago, but in Jessica's role as a CNA would she have an EMT bag? Good thing to bring camping right? Like a first aid kit on steroids.
I can't remember if you guys ever uncovered the mystery of the EMT bag after all.

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To my knowledge, CNAs don't do all that much in the way of emergency medical attention. They monitor vital signs, track and record information, sometimes transport, and help patients with essential activities. If she were an RN, I could believe she might carry something like that around (especially if she were an ER or trauma nurse), but I'm just not sure a CNA would.

http://www.allnursingschools.com/nursing-careers/certified-nursing-assistant/job-description/

 

[The Apparition]

I just can't see IR, as someone JM & VDK only meeting for the first time that weekend, going along with a scenario like this.

Again, if LE knew about the blood on the truck, there is a very simple test to determine if it was human or animal. If it was human and turned out to be DeOrr's I would think this case would have been resolved long ago.

What a great site! I appreciate all of the quality minds on here and how we all can bounce theories around. Butler and others make some very valid points. I'm by no means ready to declare case closed, I do think the car theory is at least possible and does match up in some key areas.

For devils advocate purposes my take on some of the questions raised about the car accident theory: If IR was fishing it would be very easy to fool him. He wouldn't hear any noise whatsoever while near a moving stream and if Deorr was bundled up quickly he could be told he's sleeping if he asked where he was. I don't know how well dogs work and not to be too grim but any signs of a low speed accident would probably be pretty easy to clean up. If there was blood on the ground you could shovel up the whole area and throw the dirt in the stream, no one would be able to notice if you just shuffled the dirt around once you were finished. The truck could be cleaned with any rag or paper towels and the evidence burned. Take the remains carefully bundled up and bury them. Go get a car wash, I'll have the deluxe please. Spend about 20-30 mins hauling around and splashing in mud puddles suddenly the truck doesn't look like it was cleaned. Check everything 2x call the cops.

As to the blood found on the truck, I am not an expert in those areas. I know luminol shows blood but who knows how much was spotted and if they were able to verify whether it was human or not. Also I'm not sure finding tiny amounts of blood even if it was human is enough to make arrests, having a confession, body, or witness would probably be needed.

Ok everyone poke away let me know what I missed.

 

[persimmon]

It makes me think that they just didn't pay him enough money to stay on their side and he realized he would get more attention if he started releasing information and saying how they know more than they are saying than continuing to promote the abduction theory.

I don't think the parents are innocent and I don't think it would be ethical for Klein to promote a lie. However, I believe he enjoys the spotlight. I don't know who approached who in this situation.

I just think an investigation needs to maintain integrity at each step. We all know this is not an abducted toddler case where public involvement would be more critical. There are ways to ask the public for information without the unnecessary act of holding court several times a day.

All of this takes the focus off of DeOrr and creates a carnival of grotesque behavior. The bottom line is it's not necessary so why do it? To me, this reflects the bondsman in the Anthony trial. In the end, he did nothing to aid a conviction. I think if people step back and consider things objectively, they might see that Klein is in fact harming this investigation.

 

[K.L.Puyallup]

Yes. Completely agree. For self-preservation to have trumped parental instinct and care... what the heck was going on?
I have to believe that he died instantly. If he was still alive and there was a chance at saving him, they surely would have gotten him help, right?
I mean, realistically, who knows. These people are lying liars full of lies. Maybe they really are a couple of sociopaths who are capable of letting their child die in front of them while they panic over how much trouble they're about to get into.

 

[ClaireNC]

I don't know that ggp actually knows what happened. He might realise that *something* must have happened because he can tell that that V and J are lying and covering something up, but he might not have actually witnessed anything. So he might have told KIC that he thinks maybe there was an accident, but genuinely not know any more.

I keep going back and forth on how much GGP might know. I still wonder if he was the one that made the first 911 call and that call is what set the whole "let's say he disappeared" thing into motion.

 

[ClaireNC]

Yes. Completely agree. For self-preservation to have trumped parental instinct and care... what the heck was going on?
I have to believe that he died instantly. If he was still alive and there was a chance at saving him, they surely would have gotten him help, right?
I mean, realistically, who knows. These people are lying liars full of lies. Maybe they really are a couple of sociopaths who are capable of letting their child die in front of them while they panic over how much trouble they're about to get into.

IMO He might not have died instantly. Some accident or something could have happened and he was badly injured - maybe a brain injury. They thought he was all right or were too drunk or high to realize he was badly injured and put him to bed. They discovered he was dead when they woke up in the morning. Just one of the many scenarios floating around in my brain.

I can't understand why anybody would cover up an accident that killed their child.

 

[pepelepolecat]

What a great site! I appreciate all of the quality minds on here and how we all can bounce theories around. Butler and others make some very valid points. I'm by no means ready to declare case closed, I do think the car theory is at least possible and does match up in some key areas.

For devils advocate purposes my take on some of the questions raised about the car accident theory: If IR was fishing it would be very easy to fool him. He wouldn't hear any noise whatsoever while near a moving stream and if Deorr was bundled up quickly he could be told he's sleeping if he asked where he was. I don't know how well dogs work and not to be too grim but any signs of a low speed accident would probably be pretty easy to clean up. If there was blood on the ground you could shovel up the whole area and throw the dirt in the stream, no one would be able to notice if you just shuffled the dirt around once you were finished. The truck could be cleaned with any rag or paper towels and the evidence burned. Take the remains carefully bundled up and bury them. Go get a car wash, I'll have the deluxe please. Spend about 20-30 mins hauling around and splashing in mud puddles suddenly the truck doesn't look like it was cleaned. Check everything 2x call the cops.

As to the blood found on the truck, I am not an expert in those areas. I know luminol shows blood but who knows how much was spotted and if they were able to verify whether it was human or not. Also I'm not sure finding tiny amounts of blood even if it was human is enough to make arrests, having a confession, body, or witness would probably be needed.

Ok everyone poke away let me know what I missed.

It's possible. Why cover up an accident like this? What pops into my mind: one of the parents did something that caused the baby to get run over. (speculation ahead!) Maybe there was a nasty fight, and one or the other hopped into the vehicle to peel out and drive off in high dudgeon. The other parent is equally incensed, "Don't you dare leave me behind with your kid!" and shoves or chucks the baby in the direction of the other, who is just then backing up. It's a scenario in which they could both easily blame the other, and the chucking one's actions would absolutely be prosecutable (and should be). In that scenario, you'd think the driver would be inclined to 'fess up, but who knows with these two.

Ah, it's all nasty no matter how it went down. But you do have some good points.

all moo and pure speculation and, please, no one quote any of my horrible imaginings as facts (lord knows this case needs no more rumors!).

 

[The Apparition]

I agree... I can't think of a single case where someone has accidentally run over a child and then gone to these lengths to cover it up. It just doesn't make sense, imo. Even a stupid, drunk or drug-addled person doesn't act like that. And 4 people all going along with it for 7 whole months? No way, imo.

Yes seems unreasonable to a sane person, what is happening then? I get the feeling IR didn't witness whatever happened, I'm not sure about GGP either as he is like Bigfoot (rumored to exists but never spotted). If you believe murder or beating gone too far I could see that also, but if it is accidental your quoted statement applies to any accident. Why would anyone cover up any accident for 7 months? Perhaps it isn't an accident but if it is they have decided to cover it up for 7 months for whatever reason.

 

[Lillahazel]

One of my biggest concerns regarding this case, aside from the fact there is a child who vanished last July, is everything in the last couple of threads is "Klein said". All these "facts" coming to light prefaced with "Klein said".

I know SB named the parents as suspects last month, stated they were less than truthful on certain questions on their polygraphs, and they had a difficult time telling the same story. But it's been stated on some of these posts that the FBI said the parents were lying. Can anyone post a link to a statement from the FBI that doesn't originate from Klein? .

Have the FBI made any statements yet? This quote from SB is where I first made the conclusion they have been lying.
SB "I believe they know where he is absolutely."
http://kboi2.com/news/local/report-...issing-toddler-deorr-kunz-officially-suspects







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[jessie]

I keep going back and forth on how much GGP might know. I still wonder if he was the one that made the first 911 call and that call is what set the whole "let's say he disappeared" thing into motion.

Well, I don't know any of these people so my opinions are just my opinions.
It would make sense to me if GGP just didn't notice that little DeOrr wasn't around that morning (same with IR).
The parents go off 'to the store' (?) and the scenario of little DeOrr being missing starts for GGP and IR from their return.
Perhaps GGP notices that little DeOrr isn't around when they return from the store (or he may not have remembered when he last saw him) , so the excuse the parents give is "he has wandered off, where is he!".
After an hour(?) of searching GGP tell the parents "We can't find him, better call 911".
Idk. I seem to have been through every possible scenario in my mind, and I keep thinking KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid

 

[Hoosier952]

Because they're his family, he loves them and if anything did happen then surely it was only an accident. Makes sense to me that he could make a statement like that without really knowing what happened.

I keep going back and forth on how much GGP might know. I still wonder if he was the one that made the first 911 call and that call is what set the whole "let's say he disappeared" thing into motion.

IMO, GGP knows the entire story. My mind was made up when SB (I think it was him anyways, but I can't find it in an article right now) mentioned how GGP was answering questions. It didn't sound like a confused man with memory problems. It sounded like being ornery and a man avoiding the discussion.

Given that many (or at least some) here believe that whatever happened probably happened at night, this would be interesting to know -- did either of them take sleeping meds?

Why would you cover something like that up, though? There's plenty of documentation that people can do bizarre and awful things under the influence of certain sleep meds.

I can't imagine taking sleeping meds while camping, especially if there had been any drinking or drug use or without another sober trustworthy adult there. I've been prescribed Ambien before and there is no way I would have woken up for anything and always stayed in bed. However, my grandma was prescribed Ambien and she wound up dancing naked in her front yard in some weird sleep walking event. She was very polite to the officers when they showed up. However, she remembered absolutely nothing from that night and thought everyone was playing a cruel trick when they explained what happened.

 

[courtneyb]

IMO He might not have died instantly. Some accident or something could have happened and he was badly injured - maybe a brain injury. They thought he was all right or were too drunk or high to realize he was badly injured and put him to bed. They discovered he was dead when they woke up in the morning. Just one of the many scenarios floating around in my brain.

I can't understand why anybody would cover up an accident that killed their child.

Unless one of them ran over him at night without realizing it, and for whatever reason, did not check on him all night, and discovered his body the next morning, under the truck. They would know that it would be evident that he was there for hours and the parents obviously did not (for whatever reason) know he was missing or that he had been backed up over in the truck and left there all night.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

http://www.youblawg.com/blawg/polygraphs-criminal-justice

Browning finds polys to be remarkably accurate.

 

[neesaki]

Given that many (or at least some) here believe that whatever happened probably happened at night, this would be interesting to know -- did either of them take sleeping meds?

Why would you cover something like that up, though? There's plenty of documentation that people can do bizarre and awful things under the influence of certain sleep meds.

This is true, and with Ambien there can be no memory of one's actions.

 

[kammiemc]

This is true, and with Ambien there can be no memory of one's actions.

That would both of them would have to have no memory in order for one not to be able to fill in the other. I'm thinking not likely. But who knows, maybe they'll try to make something like that their defense. Doubt it would work.


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[Coolmomof4]

As I said if you are drunk you will be prosecuted for DUI manslaughter and suffer all the consequences of that. It would take hours to sober up and even this group would realize if you leave a body lying around for 6 hours before you call the cops they will know something is up. It is a horrible decision they made but they don't seem real bright when sober so who knows how ugly it gets if they are messed up.

Plus, I may have missed it but does JM have access to her other two kids? Visitation? Perhaps she was afraid if everyone knew DeOrr died when with her, BB would try to take the other two away for good?

 

[ninij9]

What a great site! I appreciate all of the quality minds on here and how we all can bounce theories around. Butler and others make some very valid points. I'm by no means ready to declare case closed, I do think the car theory is at least possible and does match up in some key areas.

For devils advocate purposes my take on some of the questions raised about the car accident theory: If IR was fishing it would be very easy to fool him. He wouldn't hear any noise whatsoever while near a moving stream and if Deorr was bundled up quickly he could be told he's sleeping if he asked where he was. I don't know how well dogs work and not to be too grim but any signs of a low speed accident would probably be pretty easy to clean up. If there was blood on the ground you could shovel up the whole area and throw the dirt in the stream, no one would be able to notice if you just shuffled the dirt around once you were finished. The truck could be cleaned with any rag or paper towels and the evidence burned. Take the remains carefully bundled up and bury them. Go get a car wash, I'll have the deluxe please. Spend about 20-30 mins hauling around and splashing in mud puddles suddenly the truck doesn't look like it was cleaned. Check everything 2x call the cops.

As to the blood found on the truck, I am not an expert in those areas. I know luminol shows blood but who knows how much was spotted and if they were able to verify whether it was human or not. Also I'm not sure finding tiny amounts of blood even if it was human is enough to make arrests, having a confession, body, or witness would probably be needed.

Ok everyone poke away let me know what I missed.

Hi Apparition! Good post. You painted a very clear picture of the cleanup, you sure you don't have experience here?....wink, wink. (Lol jk).
Usually I would say that police could tell that the ground was disturbed etc etc, but, and this is a big BUT, I think LE was in total SAR mode during the first few hours. I'm sure the campsite was beyond trampled. So your scenario could be plausible. I keep thinking Drugs booze=accident=fear=CYA.


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[Groundwork]

http://www.youblawg.com/blawg/polygraphs-criminal-justice

Browning finds polys to be remarkably accurate.

Ohhhhh! Nice investigating and a very interesting read!!! Thank you : )

 

[ninij9]

One way that they would feel they had to hide DeOrr vs calling the police? How about before they went to bar they give DeOrr to GGP. Ok? Late that night as they pull into campsite the lights, engine, awakens baby DeOrr. He somehow gets outside. Let's just say mom and dad are backing truck up into spot. DeOrr sleepily walking toward truck..
Parents horrifically run baby over. Off they go to bed Thinking deorr is with GGP.
Wake up 8am, sees what happened. Now, afraid to call 911 because baby under truck all night dead. I can see this scenario. Afterwards all of the lies and cover-up and hiding of body. Blah blah blah.

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[kammiemc]

Yes. Completely agree. For self-preservation to have trumped parental instinct and care... what the heck was going on?
I have to believe that he died instantly. If he was still alive and there was a chance at saving him, they surely would have gotten him help, right?
I mean, realistically, who knows. These people are lying liars full of lies. Maybe they really are a couple of sociopaths who are capable of letting their child die in front of them while they panic over how much trouble they're about to get into.

I think it is very possible that they are sociopaths due to their apparent lack of concern over anything but their own welfare (first and foremost as we know, their reputations online), their willingness to let the public donate money under false pretenses and most of all their ability to betray their own little boy by not giving him help (or hurting him) and hiding him like a piece of refuse.

Given the extremity of that behavior there is really nothing AT ALL I would put past them.


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