ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #26

[bessie]

thanks for that. but is there some permanent pinned post somewhere with the social media rules, so that newbies like myself could find them in future?

In The Rules forum:

Social Media - Facebook, Twitter, etc.

The same is also posted within WS Etiquette and Information

 

[erinp]

http://www.localnews8.com/news/911-call-reporting-missing-toddler-released/34192558

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/mothers-911-phone-call-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him

I just listened to the above two clips of the 911 call from two different sources. In the first one, I can clearly hear an operator in the background ask, "What's your name" and then, "Vernal?" after which JM's operator asks, "Is your husband calling too?" Right after that, I think it's possible that something has been spliced out because it cuts back into Jessica saying, "Like, all down there by where we camping at and we can't find him." She never answered the question about whether her husband was calling. It seems like her answer has been edited out.

In the second clip, I cannot hear the operator in the background say, "What's your name?" It's like that part has been cut out. It should be in there right after JM says, "He's about three feet..." (in response to how tall he is).

Is it possible Vernal's call was ending (rather than just beginning)? His operator seems to tell him that help is on the way on that they'll call him if they need anything else. That to me sounds like the end of a 911 call, not the beginning...

perhaps they wrapped up his call pretty quickly because they already were getting the details off jessica and they wanted to free up a line? i don't know if that's how it works though

 

[Karinna]

Yes, there was one witness the night before, which, IMO, would be Thursday at 6 pm. That's all we have as far as a known sighting.

KLEIN ANSWER: Great question - we have one witness at 6 p.m. on the night before.

As far as your question of whether or not KIC's involvement/stance in this case would prove prejudicial if it does go to trial, what specifically is it that you've read/heard by KIC that you think might prejudice a jury? Also, have you ever had the chance to serve as a juror?

Thanks for the clarification about the witness as stated by Klein.
Re the latter portion of your post, i think what could be prejudicial is that KIC have given out private information publicly on SM. And throwing accusations out there about the guilt of JM being accused by Klein of knowing where Deorr's body is. She states she said no such thing.
If Klein recorded conversations without the knowledge of those who were being recorded that could land him in hot water too.

Record a conversation of which no party has knowledge. Depending on the jurisdiction, in order to legally record a conversation at least one person involved must be aware that they are being recorded. In some states, both parties must be alerted ahead of time. A private investigator can, however, eavesdrop on a conversation that takes place in public or is naturally loud enough to hear.
http://www.pinow.com/articles/456/what-a-private-investigator-cannot-do

 

[Karinna]

I wonder if whoever in the Kunz family thought it was a good idea to hire PI's did so through their attorney? From what i have read about PI's it is recommended to only hire a PI through your attorney because if you don't it could hurt your case.

 

[Arnie M]

.

Here is a theory that would make the most sense.

Grandfather decides to move the Suburban or camper trailer a bit .... re-position it in a better spot around the campfire because they were expecting additional family to arrive later with their own tents or campers .

He was aware the the boy was around , but when he checked his mirrors and glanced outside the boy was no longer there , assumed he had gone down to the parents , and did not realize he had driven over , or parked on top of him.

The parents DID go exploring like they said ..... Grandfather DID know the boy was around the campsite ..... Grandfather DID look away for a few seconds and the child was gone ...... and when the parents came back the boy WAS MISSING like they said ... and Grandfather WAS genuinely shocked to hear the boy was not with them.

And the three of them DID do a frantic search and could not find the boy until they regrouped at the campsite and spotted him underneath the vehicle or the camper trailer.

That would also explain the blood or fluid residue the cadaver dogs alerted to on "equipment"

I think they are being truthful about all those things but they become untruthful after that and decided to cover it up for some reason. Issac is off fishing and unaware of what happened. Grandfather can rightly claim he did not do anything (he did not realize he did it) ... parents can rightly claim they did not do it ... there were no witnesses , and there was no crime until the cover-up began


(From the PI article)
“We believe it is important for the public to know that the cadaver dog did hit in three certain areas of the pieces of equipment which does indicate there was a death or there was some type of fluid, cerebral fluid, blood whatever it may be, that was in the location where the dog hit, and that we know there was a death,”
http://m.localnews8.com/news/private-investigator-cadaver-dog-proves-there-was-a-death/38307992

 

[Karinna]

.

Here is a theory that would make the most sense.

Grandfather decides to move the Suburban or camper trailer a bit .... re-position it in a better spot around the campfire because they were expecting additional family to arrive later with their own tents or campers .

He was aware the the boy was around , but when he checked his mirrors and glanced outside the boy was no longer there , assumed he had gone down to the parents , and did not realize he had driven over , or parked on top of him.

The parents DID go exploring like they said ..... Grandfather DID know the boy was around the campsite ..... Grandfather DID look away for a few seconds and the child was gone ...... and when the parents came back the boy WAS MISSING like they said ... and Grandfather WAS genuinely shocked to hear the boy was not with them.

And the three of them DID do a frantic search and could not find the boy until they regrouped at the campsite and spotted him underneath the vehicle or the camper trailer.

That would also explain the blood or fluid residue the cadaver dogs alerted to on "equipment"

I think they are being truthful about all those things but they become untruthful after that and decided to cover it up for some reason. Issac is off fishing and unaware of what happened. Grandfather can rightly claim he did not do anything (he did not realize he did it) ... parents can rightly claim they did not do it ... there were no witnesses , and there was no crime until the cover-up began


(From the PI article)
“We believe it is important for the public to know that the cadaver dog did hit in three certain areas of the pieces of equipment which does indicate there was a death or there was some type of fluid, cerebral fluid, blood whatever it may be, that was in the location where the dog hit, and that we know there was a death,”
http://m.localnews8.com/news/private-investigator-cadaver-dog-proves-there-was-a-death/38307992

Your theory is as good as anyone's and i guess anything is possible when we really don't know what happened.
I wonder who's cadaver dog they used and how does a cadaver dog distinguish between cerebal fluid, blood and cadaver?
I thought cadaver dogs were only used to detect cadaver only, and there are seperate dogs that detect blood evidence because blood evidence is different to cadaver.
I guess i'm thinking of Eddie & Keela dogs in the McCann case. One of them detected cadaver and the other blood evidence.

 

[Karinna]

I would also like to know what "equipment" Klein was alluding to that their cadaver dog hit on? Wouldn't LE have initially taken certain items into evidence as they saw fit, from the camp ground and how then did Klein access anything from the day in question months later? Do PI's have access to what LE holds as potential evidence to test with their own cadaver dog?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

.

Here is a theory that would make the most sense.

Grandfather decides to move the Suburban or camper trailer a bit .... re-position it in a better spot around the campfire because they were expecting additional family to arrive later with their own tents or campers .

He was aware the the boy was around , but when he checked his mirrors and glanced outside the boy was no longer there , assumed he had gone down to the parents , and did not realize he had driven over , or parked on top of him.

The parents DID go exploring like they said ..... Grandfather DID know the boy was around the campsite ..... Grandfather DID look away for a few seconds and the child was gone ...... and when the parents came back the boy WAS MISSING like they said ... and Grandfather WAS genuinely shocked to hear the boy was not with them.

And the three of them DID do a frantic search and could not find the boy until they regrouped at the campsite and spotted him underneath the vehicle or the camper trailer.

That would also explain the blood or fluid residue the cadaver dogs alerted to on "equipment"

I think they are being truthful about all those things but they become untruthful after that and decided to cover it up for some reason. Issac is off fishing and unaware of what happened. Grandfather can rightly claim he did not do anything (he did not realize he did it) ... parents can rightly claim they did not do it ... there were no witnesses , and there was no crime until the cover-up began


(From the PI article)
“We believe it is important for the public to know that the cadaver dog did hit in three certain areas of the pieces of equipment which does indicate there was a death or there was some type of fluid, cerebral fluid, blood whatever it may be, that was in the location where the dog hit, and that we know there was a death,”
http://m.localnews8.com/news/private-investigator-cadaver-dog-proves-there-was-a-death/38307992

Thank you, your theory does make the most sense! But what I'm unable to understand: how did they (3 people) come to terms with this tragic accident (IF) in a very short time? Little Deorr was Vernal's "mini me" and Jessica's last child she would ever have given birth to. How can you not be in despair as a mother/father/GGP?

 

[persimmon]

The last interview was interesting to me because JM spoke and I don't feel like it worked to her benefit. VDK on the other hand seemed to really choose his words carefully. There were a few moments where he backpedaled and I'm guessing that's because he knew people were going to be analyzing his words. It felt like someone told him to keep his mouth shut because of the first interview. I really am starting to question if VDK is out of the loop on what happened to DeOrr and battling with himself about trusting JM. Maybe his instinct was to say "I" but he quickly replaced it with "we". Is it possible he failed Polys because he doesn't know what happened but his gut feeling does? I'm really asking this question to others because I don't know the answer.


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I've always felt whatever happened was somehow more JM centered, and primarily I'd say it's a gut instinct. However, the initial interview is where that feeling originated based on their behavior, body language, and emotion. Nonetheless, VDK is now equally guilty in my mind (that is if my gut is even right) because he has lied and assisted her in perpetuating this imaginary drama without regard for his own son. Baffling.

If I'm properly picking up what Klein is putting down, then it seems to indicate VDK is likely the MORE guilty of the two. He's the leader. Klein is very subtle in this, but I have picked up on a few suggestions and a one comment that boosting the notion that JM is victimized by fear. He doesn't make clear what she might have to fear but I get the sense his finger points at VDK.

To me VDK seems the more emotional, warm, and simple of the two. I don't read him as manipulative or cunning. His excessive talking is indicative of that. An unskilled liar will say way more than necessary and elaborate on trivial minutia to somewhat avoid lying (even when they are lying) because they are so aware of their transgression. JM seems more a rehearsed manipulator who shows no fear...and actually demonstrates her disdain for people who she has judged as stupid enough to fall for her untruths. My guess is she's done a lot of lying and she's learned to keep quiet and not show your cards. She deflects by focusing on how others are accusing her of lying. Right out the gate, she's playing the victim card. Literally, as soon as DeOrr disappears, she's introducing the idea that people don't trust her somehow. I'd say it's partly driven by her subconscious but maybe moreso it's a deliberate tactic used to solicit sympathy and to show that she doesn't fear the side eyes because she's innocent. She immediately establishes that bully people just gossip..she wraps her arm in his blanket for show expecting everybody will think.. look....she cannot part with his blanket...and she is too distraught to talk....she's the mama and mamas don't hurt their babies.

Ok, I've rambled long enough and not sure I even stayed the course of your questioning post. Jmo on all this and it doesn't lead me to any feasible scenarios so I'm as confused as others.

 

[persimmon]

Your theory is as good as anyone's and i guess anything is possible when we really don't know what happened.
I wonder who's cadaver dog they used and how does a cadaver dog distinguish between cerebal fluid, blood and cadaver?
I thought cadaver dogs were only used to detect cadaver only, and there are seperate dogs that detect blood evidence because blood evidence is different to cadaver.
I guess i'm thinking of Eddie & Keela dogs in the McCann case. One of them detected cadaver and the other blood evidence.

These are the kind of questions I have regarding Klein's statements. The obvious answer would be no, he did not access to physical evidence. What I imagine he did was interview dog handlers and searchers to arrive at that finding. I seriously doubt SB has shared much beyond the fact that VDK and JM are suspects. SB never indicated cadaver dogs hit on equipment publically. In fact, judging from what he has stated regarding dogs, I felt they came up cold. One dog was his and not a cadaver dog but he seemed genuinely surprised that his dog had no hits. He said he really should have. Idk...seems contradictory but perhaps one dog hit on something while the others didn't?

 

[Susjay]

I have been on this board since the very first thread. I am also the one that mistakenly used the word "months" instead of "almost a month and a half" when referring to how long it was before LE officially stated that the family did, in fact, arrive on Thursday evening. I was responding to someone else's post. I realize the subject has been discussed at length in previous threads ... DeOrr disappeared, VDK did not start with Thursday evening and their arrival at the campground. Instead he acted like he couldn't remember what day it was and then he proceeded to skip over everything and start with Friday's 911 call. Link: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/uncut-entire-interview-with-parents-of-deorr-kunz/

Yes, "rumors" started early on about them arriving... continually and consistently stated that the family arrived on Friday morning.

Then, on August 18th, SB finally confirmed...

So, it took 5.5 weeks for official confirmation that they arrived on Thursday, instead of Friday...

It took over 6.5 months until it was released that some of them went to the Silver Dollar on Thursday night...

I'd also like to note that I have no problem whatsoever with new (or old) followers of this case asking questions or discussing issues, even if they have already been discussed. Each person provides a unique perspective and you never know when two pieces of the puzzle might snap together.

Quote snipped for brevity Thanks desert-blue

Hey you Rock! Thanks for taking the time to write this. And if there is a test later. I want to study with you! And the puzzle analogy is apt. Trouble with this puzzle is everytime you think a piece might fit in morphs into a diffent looking piece. So doing a morphing puzzle is a challenge.

 

[Jackeee]

Thank you, your theory does make the most sense! But what I'm unable to understand: how did they (3 people) come to terms with this tragic accident (IF) in a very short time? Little Deorr was Vernal's "mini me" and Jessica's last child she would ever have given birth to. How can you not be in despair as a mother/father/GGP?

"Despair". That's what I've not seen on JM's face or heard in her voice! Maybe others here have but it hasn't come through to me. JMO.

 

[giagreen]

.

Here is a theory that would make the most sense.

Grandfather decides to move the Suburban or camper trailer a bit .... re-position it in a better spot around the campfire because they were expecting additional family to arrive later with their own tents or campers .

He was aware the the boy was around , but when he checked his mirrors and glanced outside the boy was no longer there , assumed he had gone down to the parents , and did not realize he had driven over , or parked on top of him.

The parents DID go exploring like they said ..... Grandfather DID know the boy was around the campsite ..... Grandfather DID look away for a few seconds and the child was gone ...... and when the parents came back the boy WAS MISSING like they said ... and Grandfather WAS genuinely shocked to hear the boy was not with them.

And the three of them DID do a frantic search and could not find the boy until they regrouped at the campsite and spotted him underneath the vehicle or the camper trailer.

That would also explain the blood or fluid residue the cadaver dogs alerted to on "equipment"

I think they are being truthful about all those things but they become untruthful after that and decided to cover it up for some reason. Issac is off fishing and unaware of what happened. Grandfather can rightly claim he did not do anything (he did not realize he did it) ... parents can rightly claim they did not do it ... there were no witnesses , and there was no crime until the cover-up began


(From the PI article)
“We believe it is important for the public to know that the cadaver dog did hit in three certain areas of the pieces of equipment which does indicate there was a death or there was some type of fluid, cerebral fluid, blood whatever it may be, that was in the location where the dog hit, and that we know there was a death,”
http://m.localnews8.com/news/private-investigator-cadaver-dog-proves-there-was-a-death/38307992

I could go with this theory. This is one of the very very few theories imo where most of the other pieces would fall into place then.

I would have to go back and look to what was exactly said. But from what I took from what SB said they both only failed the two questions that only suggest they new were DeOrr was. That's bothered me. I don't doubt they asked them if they were directly involved in an accident that caused their child's death also.

I think the theory you suggest could be the most likely. I beleive IR seen DeOrr after they got back from the store. I beleive IR is smart enough to know what time it was about without looking at a clock. I also beleive if IR seen DeOrr only sleeping that the parents would of been named suspects way sooner.

I think based on what IR has said. And a few comments from SB that either A) Deorr did wonder off. And he will be found this spring. (I know nobody agrees with me but I still think this is a possibility)
Or B) all 4 know something. If all 4 know then it's ggp they are covering for. IR has no reason to lie for VDK or JM as they don't have a reason to lie for him.

And that concludes my Saturday morning ramble. [emoji16]

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

 

[Mickshawn]

"Despair". That's what I've not seen on JM's face or heard in her voice! Maybe others here have but it hasn't come through to me. JMO.

I see NO "despair".....at all...ever.

 

[persimmon]

"Despair". That's what I've not seen on JM's face or heard in her voice! Maybe others here have but it hasn't come through to me. JMO.

Nope. No despair. I imagine she'd show despair and other emotions if she lost her iphone but her son fails to stir much. I think JM cares about JM and little else.

 

[Angiebla]

I see NO "despair".....at all...ever.

I would say there are 3 explanations for this, considering she is well aware Deorr is deceased (my opinion only)

1.) Denial-it's a pretty powerful thing, people live in denial for days/months/years (think of Cindy Anthony)

2.) she grieves in private, and is one of those people that doesn't want to show they are upset in public, for fear of being labeled "weak" (I don't think this one applies here)

3.) she has a personality disorder (most likely). People with PD will mimic what other say/do. In her last interview, her words and emotions didn't match up. Her fake crying reminded me of Terri Horman. This is issue with this theory is...she would probably be able to pass a lie detector test if she had ASPD.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Recently, there was a case where a stepmom put her stepson's legs into boiling water--killing him. She actually called 911. We see cases like that all the time, the child is killed through horrific abuse and the parent or caregiver are calling 911. In the boiling water case, I don't think the stepmom even tried to make up an excuse for it. Sometimes, they will try to claim it was an accident. Why can't the opposite be true? Why can't we have parents who accidentally kill their child hide the body? You can say that doesn't make logical sense but it also doesn't make logical sense to call 911 after you boil your stepson to death.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I could go with this theory. This is one of the very very few theories imo where most of the other pieces would fall into place then.

I would have to go back and look to what was exactly said. But from what I took from what SB said they both only failed the two questions that only suggest they new were DeOrr was. That's bothered me. I don't doubt they asked them if they were directly involved in an accident that caused their child's death also.

I think the theory you suggest could be the most likely. I beleive IR seen DeOrr after they got back from the store. I beleive IR is smart enough to know what time it was about without looking at a clock. I also beleive if IR seen DeOrr only sleeping that the parents would of been named suspects way sooner.

I think based on what IR has said. And a few comments from SB that either A) Deorr did wonder off. And he will be found this spring. (I know nobody agrees with me but I still think this is a possibility)
Or B) all 4 know something. If all 4 know then it's ggp they are covering for. IR has no reason to lie for VDK or JM as they don't have a reason to lie for him.

And that concludes my Saturday morning ramble. [emoji16]

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

BBM and in response to your options:

A) I would much prefer that DeOrr did in fact just wander off and fall asleep somewhere (a la Noah Chamberlin), rather than suffer at the hands of someone he loved. I think if SB hadn't named them suspects and outright liars then that's the theory I'd be going for. I just think SB knows something tangible enough to call them out.

B) I've also thought all along that if there was an incident/accident then GGP could be the one. I agree he's the most likely of the four that everyone would cover for. If we put the rumours together a reversing vehicle accident is possible.

Either way, whatever happened, little DeOrr's body is somewhere. And yes, I do believe he's dead. Until he's found it's going to be tricky to prove anything.

 

[Rayemonde]

I noticed she smiles in the first interview when Vernal starts crying. As if she's proud of him for giving such a good performance. Then she uploaded that missing poster to fb where a picture of Vernal crying is given pride of place.

She also does a weird smirk/ smile when asked how they've been coping.

 

[Rayemonde]

Recently, there was a case where a stepmom put her stepson's legs into boiling water--killing him. She actually called 911. We see cases like that all the time, the child is killed through horrific abuse and the parent or caregiver are calling 911. In the boiling water case, I don't think the stepmom even tried to make up an excuse for it. Sometimes, they will try to claim it was an accident. Why can't the opposite be true? Why can't we have parents who accidentally kill their child hide the body? You can say that doesn't make logical sense but it also doesn't make logical sense to call 911 after you boil your stepson to death.

That's the thing though, there are thousands and thousands of cases where someone abuses their kid to death, and then calls 911. Even vile, sadistic child abusers usually call 911 when they realise they've gone too far and the kid is dead or dying. You've got to be a special kind of person to go a stage further and hide a dead body, then lie about it to everybody for months... A special kind of evil.