ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #29

[desert-blue]

How deep do the roots of the trees go? There is a lot of vegetation thriving beside the creek.

https://youtu.be/izUz0Ul6N0g?t=22

Have you tried digging through tree roots? My husband had to use a pick ax to get through the tree roots when he put in our sewer line across the front yard. It took him days to dig the trench. We live in Idaho also and the ground in unirrigated areas is HARD, especially in July. The ground in the mountains is usually just sand and rocks for the most part - not much in the way of "soil" and it generally gets harder the deeper you dig. The only suspect, in my opinion, that could have dug a grave is Vernal and it probably would have taken him all night Thursday. Even if he used gloves, his hands would probably be blistered as well. I wonder if LE took note of the condition of everyone's hands? I think it's more likely that DeOrr was "hidden," like in a mine shaft, between some rocks or in a cave, or else dumped in a dumpster far far away from the campground. I think if they had put him in a body of water that his remains or something would have surfaced by now. This is such a morbid subject and my original point was just that I think it's impossible for IR to have dug a grave and buried DeOrr unbeknownst to everyone else. All MOO.

 

[Maggie_Mayz]

Have you tried digging through tree roots? My husband had to use a pick ax to get through the tree roots when he put in our sewer line across the front yard. It took him days to dig the trench. We live in Idaho also and the ground in unirrigated areas is HARD, especially in July. The ground in the mountains is usually just sand and rocks for the most part - not much in the way of "soil" and it generally gets harder the deeper you dig. The only suspect, in my opinion, that could have dug a grave is Vernal and it probably would have taken him all night Thursday. Even if he used gloves, his hands would probably be blistered as well. I wonder if LE took note of the condition of everyone's hands? I think it's more likely that DeOrr was "hidden," like in a mine shaft, between some rocks or in a cave, or else dumped in a dumpster far far away from the campground. I think if they had put him in a body of water that his remains or something would have surfaced by now. This is such a morbid subject and my original point was just that I think it's impossible for IR to have dug a grave and buried DeOrr unbeknownst to everyone else. All MOO.

Also if it was an accident or drowning etc why not just come out and say it? Like for real why make up an abduction or carry on a ruse. Why not just take the hit for child neglect, manslaughter or whatever charges happen if any and just go with it. Why say he was abducted? If they felt he was abducted why go back and keep searching the same place over amd over again. Jusy makes no sense.

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[koios]

Don't most toddler deaths by drowning occur in easily accessible water such as swimming pools & garden ponds?
At what stage in the trip, during which the parents behaved normally by purchasing candy at the store & then gas, would you consider a vehicle accident could have occurred?

1. Yes everywhere within small child walking distance (except at the ford) it looks like one has to go down a steep bank to get to the water. It is possible a fall down a steep incline might end up in the water?
2. To my knowledge, after the arrival back from the morning trip to town, and before the arrival of the first emergency response, there was only one moving vehicle within the radius of child walking distance. (I can find no report that the Suburban was driven during this period).

 

[misty48]

Also if it was an accident or drowning etc why not just come out and say it? Like for real why make up an abduction or carry on a ruse. Why not just take the hit for child neglect, manslaughter or whatever charges happen if any and just go with it. Why say he was abducted? If they felt he was abducted why go back and keep searching the same place over amd over again. Jusy makes no sense.

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For innocent parents whose child has seemingly disappeared into thin air and no trace ever found after repeated extensive searches, abduction is the most plausible scenario. Repeated searching of the last-known location of Deorr demonstrates that they do not know where he is imo.

 

[alexwood]

It doesn't appear that Jessica has paid off any of her judgments against her. She also apparently got evicted from her apartment. Seems like the money woes continue. Do you suppose the payments haven't started yet or are the parents just waiting until the dust settles to start spending? Wouldn't everyone (including investigators) be all over it if Jessica and Vernal (i.e. the suspects) at any point start making large purchases that are not in line with their incomes? Also, open adoption is perfectly legal. Why would they fake his disappearance and put themselves under a microscope for the rest of their lives? They could have combined a legal adoption with an illegal payment arrangement done in cash under the table and no one probably would have been the wiser. It certainly would not have drawn as much attention as pretending that your child mysteriously disappeared in the wilderness. Plus, wouldn't they have taken the time to carefully manufacture their stories so they matched and made sense? MOO.

All of your points are good ones, Desert. I really don't know what to think. Nobody seems to support the "vanished into thin air" theory. But what are they hiding? What could it possibly be that is so terrible that they couldn't admit, as far as an "accidental death" goes? I guess we've already orbited that circle many times. It just baffles me completely. How can they unanimously conspire to keep their mouths shut? I guess it could all come out "one day," years down the road. By then, who will remember?

 

[misty48]

1. Yes everywhere within small child walking distance (except at the ford) it looks like one has to go down a steep bank to get to the water. It is possible a fall down a steep incline might end up in the water?
2. To my knowledge, after the arrival back from the morning trip to town, and before the arrival of the first emergency response, there was only one moving vehicle within the radius of child walking distance. (I can find no report that the Suburban was driven during this period).

1. Yes, imo Deorr did slip down the bank & was either killed on the way down or was knocked unconscious & ended up face-down in the creek.
2. The only vehicle reported to have moved did so after Deorr was found to be missing. Is it reasonable to assume that, had this vehicle been involved in an accident with Deorr, the driver would not have phoned 911?

 

[KatieLiz]

So if he fell in the stream what's the first thing you do? Call 911.

As for being hit by a vehicle, I have said all along I think this is a strong possibility. But again, why not call 911? Because someone was drink-driving?

The million dollar question is, assuming either of those tragic and accidental events occurred, why are the Leadore Four going to such lengths to hide the truth? What are they hiding?

Exactly. None of us are saying Deorr's death was intentional or accidental. For the most part we all seem to weave back and forth on those two. But what the majority of us can agree on is that whether the death was accidental or intentional, to cover up has been intentional and deliberate and THAT is a problem as much as murder is.

 

[amateur sleuth]

So if he fell in the stream what's the first thing you do? Call 911.

As for being hit by a vehicle, I have said all along I think this is a strong possibility. But again, why not call 911? Because someone was drink-driving?

The million dollar question is, assuming either of those tragic and accidental events occurred, why are the Leadore Four going to such lengths to hide the truth? What are they hiding?

CoverMeCagney, PLEASE let me know if or when you get a STRAIGHT answer from certain posters who are having a heck of a time giving direct answers to direct questions! TIA! p.s. holding my breath!

 

[amateur sleuth]

Could not edit my comment to CoverMeCagney the regular way so I will just add that I meant to write....p.s. I won't hold my breath!

 

[Maggie_Mayz]

Could not edit my comment to CoverMeCagney the regular way so I will just add that I meant to write....p.s. I won't hold my breath!

I wont either.

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[amateur sleuth]

I can work with what you are saying here. I also think he drove off possibly a couple of times "that" day. I do not believe it was to call 911 and I too am not certain of the timing of his drive(s). He made such a point of mentioning his truck and driving away during his alibi building interview that it's certain the truck and driving was involved somehow in the story and he wanted to preemptively explain away why he was driving around. I believe he drove off to burn evidence or perhaps stash it somewhere.

Speaking of Vernal I wonder where he is. He has really fallen off the map it seems like just yesterday when he looked into the camera stammered, stuttered and eventually spit out something like "I will find you son, daddy will find you", I wonder how his personal search is going.

and he even had tears!!.....REAL ones!

 

[koios]

1. Yes, imo Deorr did slip down the bank & was either killed on the way down or was knocked unconscious & ended up face-down in the creek.
2. The only vehicle reported to have moved did so after Deorr was found to be missing. Is it reasonable to assume that, had this vehicle been involved in an accident with Deorr, the driver would not have phoned 911?

If he had accidentally died by drowning, or by falling, or by a combination of both, there would have been absolutely no motive for an adult to cover it up, In my opinion, because the only culpability there would be that of not constantly watching the child.

 

[KatieLiz]

For innocent parents whose child has seemingly disappeared into thin air and no trace ever found after repeated extensive searches, abduction is the most plausible scenario. Repeated searching of the last-known location of Deorr demonstrates that they do not know where he is imo.

But LE have said their stories are untrue. Anyone who has paid attention can tell the stories have changed multiple times. And it's quite obvious J doesn't think he was abducted since she did her recent search up the mountain. (Which IMO was all for show...)

 

[KatieLiz]

1. Yes, imo Deorr did slip down the bank & was either killed on the way down or was knocked unconscious & ended up face-down in the creek.
2. The only vehicle reported to have moved did so after Deorr was found to be missing. Is it reasonable to assume that, had this vehicle been involved in an accident with Deorr, the driver would not have phoned 911?

BBM- and then what happened?

 

[KatieLiz]

It's been awhile, but I think there's an edit signature feature under Settings.

Thank you!!

 

[misty48]

But LE have said their stories are untrue. Anyone who has paid attention can tell the stories have changed multiple times. And it's quite obvious J doesn't think he was abducted since she did her recent search up the mountain. (Which IMO was all for show...)

There are many people on here who are asserting that the ground is too hard & rocky to bury the body of a toddler at the campground. However, during the searches carried out by Klein Investigations/Tracy + Chance, the dog alerted to a spot where a searcher's dog was found to have been buried. If it is possible to bury a dog (apparently unnoticed by LE at the time) why is it not possible to bury a young child? I don't think the searcher would have been carrying grave-digging machinery with him.

 

[desert-blue]

There are many people on here who are asserting that the ground is too hard & rocky to bury the body of a toddler at the campground. However, during the searches carried out by Klein Investigations/Tracy + Chance, the dog alerted to a spot where a searcher's dog was found to have been buried. If it is possible to bury a dog (apparently unnoticed by LE at the time) why is it not possible to bury a young child? I don't think the searcher would have been carrying grave-digging machinery with him.

Do we know for sure when the dog was buried? The time of year would make a big difference. Also,the dog grave was found, DeOrr hasn't been. The allegation was that IR buried DeOrr so well that no dogs have been able to locate him....

 

[desert-blue]

Also if it was an accident or drowning etc why not just come out and say it? Like for real why make up an abduction or carry on a ruse. Why not just take the hit for child neglect, manslaughter or whatever charges happen if any and just go with it. Why say he was abducted? If they felt he was abducted why go back and keep searching the same place over amd over again. Jusy makes no sense.

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You're right - nothing about this case makes much sense... If it was an accident, though, I suspect there was some major negligence. I guess they decided to take their chances and cover-up their crimes - the burden of proof is on the state. Why fess up and go to jail? I think the abduction idea sort of fell in their laps because it was the only theory that didn't implicate them and would account for no trace of DeOrr being found. They kind of had to jump on that bandwagon. MOO.

 

[KatieLiz]

There are many people on here who are asserting that the ground is too hard & rocky to bury the body of a toddler at the campground. However, during the searches carried out by Klein Investigations/Tracy + Chance, the dog alerted to a spot where a searcher's dog was found to have been buried. If it is possible to bury a dog (apparently unnoticed by LE at the time) why is it not possible to bury a young child? I don't think the searcher would have been carrying grave-digging machinery with him.

I'm having a hard time following your theories...

What I'm taking away is you think the 4 adults are innocent and he was abducted. But you also think he wandered and was missed by all the searchers and dogs. But you also think IR somehow killed him even though he was with Jessica, and then buried him in the creek or the rocky terrain. But you also think he accidentally drowned. But you also think he fell down the hill and broke his neck. But that can't make sense because you believe the search is genuine and that Vernal did drive away for signal to call 911.

So.... im not sure how to follow this dialogue anymore.

 

[KatieLiz]

You're right - nothing about this case makes much sense... If it was an accident, though, I suspect there was some major negligence. I guess they decided to take their chances and cover-up their crimes - the burden of proof is on the state. Why fess up and go to jail? I think the abduction idea sort of fell in their laps because it was the only theory that didn't implicate them and would account for no trace of DeOrr being found. They kind of had to jump on that bandwagon. MOO.

I think it makes it even more sick if your child accidentally died and you can cover it up and go on with your life and allow your family to spend their time and resources searching and holding out hope that he is alive somewhere.... psychopathic behaviour IMO.