ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #29

[neesaki]

<modsnip> You think referring to the suspects/poi's statements as stories is unprofessional, should Klein refer to them as stone cold lead pipe locks? I mean we have such a collection of accurate historians on our hands, who is this trumped up PI to question the veracity of the words of these pillars of society? They are stories because the suspects are story tellers. Literally nothing they say is to be believed since they are suspects in a presumed homicide, <modsnip> criminals often LIE.

Speaking of criminals, IR has a fairly extensive rap sheet, all the way back to 1999 and probably earlier but there are three court records that are sealed. Was he a minor on all three, or did he just have had a good attorney, or does Idaho law lean towards protecting the criminals reputation? Anyone know? I just have a problem with the fact that he appears to have a little problem with not learning from his mistakes and continuing to break the law. If he has a problem with that, which according to court records, he does, then I have no reason to believe a word he says. JMO
https://www.idcourts.us/repository/start.do

ETA: hope this is ok to post since its of public record.

 

[haven71]

Sometimes it's a little difficult to keep this discussion going, based on how little factual info we know. So, just a couple things that crossed my mind this morning:

IIRC, Trina said that when Jessica called her, she was so upset she was nearly unintelligible (paraphrasing here). She couldn't understand what Jessica was saying. Do we know what time this call with her mother was, in relation to the 911 call? It seems odd that Jessica would be beside herself with hysteria when she called her mom, then so coherent and calm when she called 911. If it was a lot earlier, could she have been impaired by a substance? Sobered up before the 911 call? What time does Trina claim she actually talked to Jess? Immediately before 911? If so, was this verified by LE or Klein, like through phone records? I find it really odd that she would be freaking out about Deorr's disappearance only to call 911 and sound slightly shaky and distracted, but not out of her mind at all.

Secondly, how long after J and V filed the defamation suit against Klein did Klein announce the case was cold? I'm not looking to bash Klein, I think he is heroic for bulldozing through all the crap he has in search of the truth. Just wondering if there was any merit to the suit that may have warranted Klein stepping back a bit...

 

[Purplepixii]

RSBM

Secondly, how long after J and V filed the defamation suit against Klein did Klein announce the case was cold? I'm not looking to bash Klein, I think he is heroic for bulldozing through all the crap he has in search of the truth. Just wondering if there was any merit to the suit that may have warranted Klein stepping back a bit...

Klein and his team are bulldogs - PK himself more so. I am confident the "defamation suit" has little to do with him now referring to this as a "cold case". I think he's realised he's got as far as he can and by calling it a cold case this allows him, and other investigators/persons, to take a step back and re-evaluate the whole case from the beginning. Not a bad thing to do IMO as we're stuck on it with only a fraction of the information he probably has! Oh and last I heard, this "defamation suit" was just a pipe-dream of the POI's - nothing had been officially filed - but I haven't checked the repository for the past couple of weeks.

 

[haven71]

Speaking of criminals, IR has a fairly extensive rap sheet, all the way back to 1999 and probably earlier but there are three court records that are sealed. Was he a minor on all three, or did he just have had a good attorney, or does Idaho law lean towards protecting the criminals reputation? Anyone know? I just have a problem with the fact that he appears to have a little problem with not learning from his mistakes and continuing to break the law. If he has a problem with that, which according to court records, he does, then I have no reason to believe a word he says. JMO
https://www.idcourts.us/repository/start.do

ETA: hope this is ok to post since its of public record.

Sorry to say I don't have any answers about the justice system in Idaho, even though I lived there during high school, and now live in Boise.

However, I think Isaac gets the benefit of a doubt a lot, but not from me. Think of the first video, I was creeped out, he seemed to be high and out of it and I just had a general bad feeling about him. I don't think he alone did something to Deorr, but I think he may have some criminal culpability in Deorr's disappearance. I don't think of him as a good-hearted simple man...he may well be but I suspect there's a lot more to Isaac than meets the eye.

 

[jessie]

Sometimes it's a little difficult to keep this discussion going, based on how little factual info we know. So, just a couple things that crossed my mind this morning:

IIRC, Trina said that when Jessica called her, she was so upset she was nearly unintelligible (paraphrasing here). She couldn't understand what Jessica was saying. Do we know what time this call with her mother was, in relation to the 911 call? It seems odd that Jessica would be beside herself with hysteria when she called her mom, then so coherent and calm when she called 911. If it was a lot earlier, could she have been impaired by a substance? Sobered up before the 911 call? What time does Trina claim she actually talked to Jess? Immediately before 911? If so, was this verified by LE or Klein, like through phone records? I find it really odd that she would be freaking out about Deorr's disappearance only to call 911 and sound slightly shaky and distracted, but not out of her mind at all.
.

Can I piggyback your post please haven71.

Jessica made several calls to her mother that morning but couldn't get through.
Was it said that Jessica left messages about Deorr being missing when she didn't get through ?
Or did TBC just notice lots of calls from Jessica on her phone when she finished work, but not know the reason? TIA

 

[desert-blue]

Speaking of criminals, IR has a fairly extensive rap sheet, all the way back to 1999 and probably earlier but there are three court records that are sealed. Was he a minor on all three, or did he just have had a good attorney, or does Idaho law lean towards protecting the criminals reputation? Anyone know? I just have a problem with the fact that he appears to have a little problem with not learning from his mistakes and continuing to break the law. If he has a problem with that, which according to court records, he does, then I have no reason to believe a word he says. JMO
https://www.idcourts.us/repository/start.do

ETA: hope this is ok to post since its of public record.

I believe Idaho will seal court records that involve a minor child (such as custody cases and adoptions, etc.). I'm guessing that at least one or more of the sealed cases are related to Isaac's child (that he obviously does not have custody of). JMO.

ETA: and yes, it's possible the cases could also be from when Isaac himself was a minor. There are 4 more cases in a different county as well.

 

[desert-blue]

Klein and his team are bulldogs - PK himself more so. I am confident the "defamation suit" has little to do with him now referring to this as a "cold case". I think he's realised he's got as far as he can and by calling it a cold case this allows him, and other investigators/persons, to take a step back and re-evaluate the whole case from the beginning. Not a bad thing to do IMO as we're stuck on it with only a fraction of the information he probably has! Oh and last I heard, this "defamation suit" was just a pipe-dream of the POI's - nothing had been officially filed - but I haven't checked the repository for the past couple of weeks.

According to the repository, Klein still has not been served. There has been no activity since the day the case was filed on September 9th. I think the case is baloney and will go nowhere.... MOO.

 

[desert-blue]

Can I piggyback your post please haven71.

Jessica made several calls to her mother that morning but couldn't get through.
Was it said that Jessica left messages about Deorr being missing when she didn't get through ?
Or did TBC just notice lots of calls from Jessica on her phone when she finished work, but not know the reason? TIA

I got the impression she noticed a lot of missed calls while at work and originally thought it was probably something to do with her dad, so I'm assuming Jessica did not leave messages. Although it's odd she didn't send a text since she sent her texts earlier in the morning to tell her she was going to the store and that she got her feminine supplies. But apparently no text to alert her that baby DeOrr was missing. Strange.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Can I piggyback your post please haven71.

Jessica made several calls to her mother that morning but couldn't get through.
Was it said that Jessica left messages about Deorr being missing when she didn't get through ?
Or did TBC just notice lots of calls from Jessica on her phone when she finished work, but not know the reason? TIA

There is a video interview with Trina somewhere, in which she said that she finished her shift at work and noticed several missed calls from Jessica. When she finally called her back she told Jess off for not calling 911 already. They were then in contact by phone as Trina was driving up to Timber Creek. That's how I recall it anyway, I'm sure someone might kindly link it so we can clarify.

It does re-raise the issue of Jessica having perfectly good phone reception that afternoon and the subsequent necessity of Vernal "hauling up the road" to call 911.

 

[jessie]

I got the impression she noticed a lot of missed calls while at work and originally thought it was probably something to do with her dad, so I'm assuming Jessica did not leave messages. Although it's odd she didn't send a text since she sent her texts earlier in the morning to tell her she was going to the store and that she got her feminine supplies. But apparently no text to alert her that baby DeOrr was missing. Strange.

Thanks desert-blue and CmC - can't do multiple quotes !!

That's what I thought, but weird that Jessica didn't leave messages for her mum about something so serious as her child missing ?
Or a text of course, but seems - imo - natural to leave a voicemail in a desperate situation. Very, very strange.

 

[Maggie_Mayz]

I got the impression she noticed a lot of missed calls while at work and originally thought it was probably something to do with her dad, so I'm assuming Jessica did not leave messages. Although it's odd she didn't send a text since she sent her texts earlier in the morning to tell her she was going to the store and that she got her feminine supplies. But apparently no text to alert her that baby DeOrr was missing. Strange.

Maybe that was part of the "plan", as a way to say, it is done. I honestly feel like TBC knows more then she says and knew what happened and is protecting the 4.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Thanks desert-blue and CmC - can't do multiple quotes !!

That's what I thought, but weird that Jessica didn't leave messages for her mum about something so serious as her child missing ?
Or a text of course, but seems - imo - natural to leave a voicemail in a desperate situation. Very, very strange.

To do multi quotes click the "+ flag at the bottom right of each post, then scroll down to "reply to thread" bottom left. Hope that helps, it took me forever to work it out!

 

[koios]

1.5 km=less than 1 mile
The helicopter search for deorr had a 3 mile radius I believe.
Am I missing the connection? Or were you pointing out that the child was able the travel a mile while people were searching?

Yes, Issac Leuewenberger walked about 1.5km, over 16 hours, MOO while police and 70 volunteers and search dogs and 2 helicopters were searching for him. I guess he was probably sleeping much of that time?
And it wasn't the helicopters or tracker dogs that found him, it was a human searcher who heard rustling in the vegetation, only after they widened the search radius.
I believe that the IR equipment on helicopters can see into small bushes but not into forest.

 

[KatieLiz]

Yes, Issac Leuewenberger walked about 1.5km, over 16 hours, MOO while police and 70 volunteers and search dogs and 2 helicopters were searching for him. I guess he was probably sleeping much of that time?
And it wasn't the helicopters or tracker dogs that found him, it was a human searcher who heard rustling in the vegetation, only after they widened the search radius.
I believe that the IR equipment on helicopters can see into small bushes but not into forest.

I didn't read about the case you are referring too (which is odd since I live in Canada), did they use IR when searching for him? I ask because the distance he travelled would have been within the zone (3 mile radius) that the helicopter searched for Deorr. And to touch on your bush vs. forest comment- in your opinion would the Bush at timber creek be too thick?

I don't see why they would employ the IR method if they didn't think it would work in the bush. Isn't that what it's designed for?


IMO everyone involved in DeOrr's search (aside from family) must be satisfied that he isn't there, or else people would have remained out there looking.

 

[TxJan1971]

Can I piggyback your post please haven71.

Jessica made several calls to her mother that morning but couldn't get through.
Was it said that Jessica left messages about Deorr being missing when she didn't get through ?
Or did TBC just notice lots of calls from Jessica on her phone when she finished work, but not know the reason? TIA

Here's what Trina said:

TBC: Well, um, I was at work that afternoon and um, my phone is always on Silent, and I had taken a break and had noticed that her phone had called me several times, so I tried to call her, and call, and I couldn’t get through, and um …

<snip>
...and when I realized that the calls were so… (pause) there was so many of ‘em, I really was worried about my father.

<snip>

05:43
CB: Just to clarify though, so she called you and then she called 911, is that true?

TBC: That is true!


CB: And…um…why do you think she did that?

TBC: Because I don’t think that Jessica for a moment ever thought that we’d be where we are right now. I…I truly believe that, you know, she just needed… Mom, you know, Help me! What do I do here? Um… I…I think she was a 25-year-old young lady that…was scared, and was hoping that…just the calm…the, you know, the … talkin’ to her mommy

06:16
... whether anyone wants to believe it, you know, she wanted to talk to her mommy and hopefully, mommy would have that solution…and…you know, when mom couldn’t have that solution is when I said, you…you need to pick up… you’ve got to call 911. Have you called them? And that was her next phone call was to 911.

http://www.localnews8.com/news/exte...dma-of-missing-toddler-deorr-kunz-jr/39482978

 

[koios]

I do understand your thoughts koios, though I don't know how the landscape around BC Lake area compares to Timber Creek c/g- is BC Lake area fairly level, there appear to be hiking trails etc and many cleared areas ?.

Timber Creek appears to be a 'rougher' area from what I've read (willing to be corrected) . Steep banks to a sometimes fast flowing creek, stoney/boulderish ground, and probably large animals of prey - and again only from what I've read - the tree line appears to be across the creek from the c/g? I understand it is very difficult to track and find a small child in a forest, but if that occurred would little Deorr have to cross the creek to access a forested area.? I may sound confused, but I am honestly trying to "be there" in little Deorr's big boots..

Anyway - Deorr was reported missing on Friday 10 July.
3 days later (Monday 13 July) his parents say "He must have been abducted". The creek was searched again on Tuesday 14 July, and on Friday 17 July a dive team was called in to search the reservoir.

It really doesn't sit well with me that parents of a missing tiny child in such an area say 3 days later "he must have been abducted" when the largest body of water in the vicinity hasn't been investigated yet, and there is still a chance of taken by a mountain lion.

Also I am a bit suspicious of the parents telling us they left DK - who they tell us wouldn't leave their side (paraphrased) - while they explore in an unknown wild area and he was content to stay with GGP.? Odd but only imo.

I have rambled here, sorry all. Happy for Sillybilly to delete my post 'cos it makes little sense I suppose. I go over and over it all and this is written out of sheer sadness and frustration. All IMO, and JMO.

The route walked by the lost 2 year old in British Columbia was through forest, with less dense sagebrush type area nearby. I may post an image over on the IL thread as I do not want to post more IL stuff here, except to say this which is applicable to the DK case, that in forest it is possible for a lost child to be not found by helicopter IR, and to be not tracked by search dogs.

 

[Russian Blue]

There is a video interview with Trina somewhere, in which she said that she finished her shift at work and noticed several missed calls from Jessica. When she finally called her back she told Jess off for not calling 911 already. They were then in contact by phone as Trina was driving up to Timber Creek. That's how I recall it anyway, I'm sure someone might kindly link it so we can clarify.

It does re-raise the issue. You can dissect every statement her and it's crazy but the risk losing connection? JM was already connected if you got disconnected you would try back and if necessary "haul away". He is delusional that people are believing any of his/ thier stories.

 

[koios]

I didn't read about the case you are referring too (which is odd since I live in Canada), did they use IR when searching for him? I ask because the distance he travelled would have been within the zone (3 mile radius) that the helicopter searched for Deorr. And to touch on your bush vs. forest comment- in your opinion would the Bush at timber creek be too thick?

I don't see why they would employ the IR method if they didn't think it would work in the bush. Isn't that what it's designed for?


IMO everyone involved in DeOrr's search (aside from family) must be satisfied that he isn't there, or else people would have remained out there looking.

Here's a small area about 35metres x 35 metres of woods very close to the campground. Basicaly the bits of ground that are visible to you in this image are the bits of ground visible from a helicopter.

Therefore in the wooded areas most of the ground is invisible to a helicopter. The addition of IR technology doesn't help much in the woods because while it will see a child concealed in long grass or in a small bush, it won't see a child under tree cover MOO. My qualification is watching police chase programmes on TV, where the IR equipment can see a criminal hiding in long grass, in a shed, or in a small bush, but the criminal becomes invisible if he enters a wood.

 

[KatieLiz]

Here's a small area about 35metres x 35 metres of woods very close to the campground. Basicaly the bits of ground that are visible to you in this image are the bits of ground visible from a helicopter.

Therefore in the wooded areas most of the ground is invisible to a helicopter. The addition of IR technology doesn't help much in the woods because while it will see a child concealed in long grass or in a small bush, it won't see a child under tree cover MOO. My qualification is watching police chase programmes on TV, where the IR equipment can see a criminal hiding in long grass, in a shed, or in a small bush, but the criminal becomes invisible if he enters a wood.

Humm... do you have a link referencing IR technology failing in the bush?

I've watched a lot of crime show as well as hunting shows.... the hunting shows are interesting... the bush lights up with all the animals. Even small ones.

 

[neesaki]

Here's what Trina said:

TBC: Well, um, I was at work that afternoon and um, my phone is always on Silent, and I had taken a break and had noticed that her phone had called me several times, so I tried to call her, and call, and I couldn&#8217;t get through, and um &#8230;

<snip>
...and when I realized that the calls were so&#8230; (pause) there was so many of &#8216;em, I really was worried about my father.

<snip>

05:43
CB: Just to clarify though, so she called you and then she called 911, is that true?

TBC: That is true!


CB: And&#8230;um&#8230;why do you think she did that?

TBC: Because I don&#8217;t think that Jessica for a moment ever thought that we&#8217;d be where we are right now. I&#8230;I truly believe that, you know, she just needed&#8230; Mom, you know, Help me! What do I do here? Um&#8230; I&#8230;I think she was a 25-year-old young lady that&#8230;was scared, and was hoping that&#8230;just the calm&#8230;the, you know, the &#8230; talkin&#8217; to her mommy

06:16
... whether anyone wants to believe it, you know, she wanted to talk to her mommy and hopefully, mommy would have that solution&#8230;and&#8230;you know, when mom couldn&#8217;t have that solution is when I said, you&#8230;you need to pick up&#8230; you&#8217;ve got to call 911. Have you called them? And that was her next phone call was to 911.

http://www.localnews8.com/news/exte...dma-of-missing-toddler-deorr-kunz-jr/39482978

Re: bolded:

I truly believe that, you know, she just needed&#8230; Mom, you know, Help me! What do I do here? Um&#8230; I&#8230;I think she was a 25-year-old young lady that&#8230;was scared, and was hoping that&#8230;just the calm&#8230;the, you know, the &#8230; talkin&#8217; to her mommy

"Talking to her mommy"? Wow, what a contrast to the way she was talking to her "mommy" on FB. Just to recall, it was certainly nothing nearly so sweet. It wasn't even kind. Instead, it was F **** you TBC"... to her own mother !!! Please give us all a break, TBC, what type of daughter talks to their mother that way and then you, who are supposed to be a "mother" tries to excuse her and enable her more. This girl is insolent, profane and disrespectful. She needs no excuses, if anything she needs some tough love, aka Reality.

What TBC says and what really goes on between her and her daughter does not cohere. So as with IR, and all of the Campground Four, I don't believe anything she says anymore either. JMO

ETA: Nothing aimed towards you TxJan, I appreciate your excellent work in transcribing things for all of us here. You are a genuine asset. (((hug)))