ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #29

[haven71]

RSBM



My bolded. We really have no idea if Jessica was hysterical when she spoke to TBC though do we ? It's what TBC tells us, but where's the evidence ?
She could, possibly, have been angry that TBC wasn't picking up and let rip when they finally spoke. I just think if J was so hysterical about Deorr missing then why didn't she leave a message for TBC as it was urgent. OMOO

In essence, we don't know jack.:banghead:

 

[neesaki]

I see what you're saying. It is unlikely but not altogether impossible IMO. I'm thinking more that Jessica *could* have just LEARNED about Deorr's fate when she became hysterical. Maybe she figured out or was told he was dead and that's what set her off. Maybe she had hurt Deorr, and he didn't "make it". To be clear, I think Jessica is very guilty in this, but I am puzzled that she would be so incoherent on the phone, on purpose or not, and then be so indifferent sounding on the 911 call. And if her hysteria were to convince TBC that Deorr had just vanished, why wouldn't she use that same hysteria to render her more believable to LE?

My strongest theory is he was never at the campground, and in a way, that's the saddest theory. Because it makes finding Deorr a needle in a haystack, and if he was found, so much time would've passed that COD and other details may be impossible to ascertain. Therefore, thwarting proper justice.

Regardless of what was going on, whether devious and nefarious, or negligence or drunken/ drugged rage, I don't think little Deorr was supposed to die. So it's possible that the J was in a state of heightened anxiety or hysteria at one point. But by the time she called 911 it was more like she couldn't find her cat. JMO

 

[zencompass]

It is such an honor to read all of your posts. Your messages are filled with genuine compassion for little DeOrr.

I wish that his parents felt the same way but it is evident that was/is not the case.

If the parents came up with the idea of camping to steer law enforcement away from where and what actually occurred to this adorable little boy, then they succeeded.
But I hope and pray that this "success" does not last much longer!

Unfortunately for the parents, I still strongly believe that something will come up - either a family member who knows something will break down and tell the truth out
of genuine love for this little boy. Or there will be a clue somewhere, somehow.

I truly believe that the parents' "luck" will soon run out.

Little DeOrr deserves justice and his story to be told. God Bless you De'Orr. I am so sorry that strangers care and love you more than your parents did but
sometimes, tragically and heartbreakingly, that is the case. Rest in Peace.

 

[SubtleGrace]

The moment I heard V say that I thought, hang on, FLIR can't see through tree canopy. This is confirmed by the bold text which is a quote from a top expert at a leading FLIR manufacturer.
"a $225,000 infrared-camera system mounted in a Seminole County helicopter was no match for 11-year-old Nadia Bloom, who spent four nights in a swamp near her Winter Springs home. In fact, the inability to find Nadia in the wooded area — even in the middle of the night when she was the only person there"
"There is nothing presently available that would have allowed the infrared system to see through the tree canopy."
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...18_1_infrared-system-flir-systems-helicopters

That was 6 years ago.

From pr-infrared.com: "How is law enforcement using this technology? In a number of important ways. First, it helps police officers stay safe by spotting suspects hiding in bushes or in dark alleys — in fact it can “see” someone hiding behind an object like a box or trash can if that person radiates enough heat to cast a thermal image around the object. It assists police in pursuit. Thermal cameras can see people running in the night, even through the cover of trees."

No, FLIR isn't perfect, it can't see through every cover, but it is effective enough that it's apparently used in Lemhi County, and in Idaho. I seem to remember that Lemhi County has a pretty good track record on finding people missing in the wilderness. They must know what they are doing, eh?

 

[misty48]

That was 6 years ago.

From pr-infrared.com: "How is law enforcement using this technology? In a number of important ways. First, it helps police officers stay safe by spotting suspects hiding in bushes or in dark alleys — in fact it can “see” someone hiding behind an object like a box or trash can if that person radiates enough heat to cast a thermal image around the object. It assists police in pursuit. Thermal cameras can see people running in the night, even through the cover of trees."

No, FLIR isn't perfect, it can't see through every cover, but it is effective enough that it's apparently used in Lemhi County, and in Idaho. I seem to remember that Lemhi County has a pretty good track record on finding people missing in the wilderness. They must know what they are doing, eh?

In the 2014 manhunt for Eric Frein, the suspect managed to evade several US LE agencies plus thermal imaging by hiding in Pennsylvanian woods for 6 weeks.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-frein-manhunt-20141027-story.html

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Hi Misty. I take it you believe DeOrr simply wandered off and got lost in the woods - a belief that many members here held in the early days and many would still prefer to be the case. I'm intrigued to know what makes you NOT believe what the police say about that. When you know that the police department, the FBI lie detector guys and two PI's (both initially hired by the Kunz family) all stronglystate the parents are liars and know what happened to DeOrr, what makes you doubt that?

It is usual for people to be on the fence, I certainly am, I change my mind often about what happened and am open to ideas. I just don't think all those agencies would publicly and emphatically pronounce them fibbers so I'm genuinely wondering what it is you know or believe that makes you feel the parents are innocent.

 

[The Apparition]

In the 2014 manhunt for Eric Frein, the suspect managed to evade several US LE agencies plus thermal imaging by hiding in Pennsylvanian woods for 6 weeks.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-frein-manhunt-20141027-story.html

Ahem ah I believe it's time to cue up the definition of false equivalence, because that is what you are doing here. You can't compare a eagle scout, woodsman, purposely avoiding detection with a "hypothetical" scared 2.5 year old wandering around the forest.

I'm not saying any tech is foolproof it isn't, but we are 16 months out and there is no sign of this missing boy. If the infrared missed him you would think a searcher would find his non-hidden remains in one of the many searches of the woods.

 

[misty48]

Hi Misty. I take it you believe DeOrr simply wandered off and got lost in the woods - a belief that many members here held in the early days and many would still prefer to be the case. I'm intrigued to know what makes you NOT believe what the police say about that. When you know that the police department, the FBI lie detector guys and two PI's (both initially hired by the Kunz family) all stronglystate the parents are liars and know what happened to DeOrr, what makes you doubt that?

It is usual for people to be on the fence, I certainly am, I change my mind often about what happened and am open to ideas. I just don't think all those agencies would publicly and emphatically pronounce them fibbers so I'm genuinely wondering what it is you know or believe that makes you feel the parents are innocent.

Hi CoverMeCagney
Deorr wandering off into the woods & getting lost is one of the more likely scenarios (but doesn't follow with all my thinking). There are several cases where tracker dogs have failed to follow the scent of a child who went missing & was later found alive. (There was one in Ourem, Portugal just 2 days ago, 2 year old Martin who was found nearly 2km from place of residence). I am wondering if the tracker dogs in Deorr's case were actually tracking JA's scent rather than Deorr's - we don't know which "uncontaminated" item the dogs used for scenting.
The parents weren't the only people to fail the polygraphs, were they - all 4 parties did.? TBC, who wasn't even there, also failed one. Sometimes the police can be very good at distorting the truth into an apparent lie - it has happened often & innocent people have been wrongly accused. The Joanna Yates (Bristol UK) case is a prime example - fortunately for Christopher Jefferies the victim's body was found & DNA of the real killer identified, otherwise I dread to think what would have happened to that poor man.
My main concern is that Deorr allegedly disappeared during what seemed to be the first & only time period on the trip he was not under the watch of either parent. IMO he either fell or was taken down the bank, out of GPP's sight,. IMO IR holds the key as to where he was then taken & concealed.
Were there any firearms or axes found at the site, do you know?

 

[misty48]

Ahem ah I believe it's time to cue up the definition of false equivalence, because that is what you are doing here. You can't compare a eagle scout, woodsman, purposely avoiding detection with a "hypothetical" scared 2.5 year old wandering around the forest.

I'm not saying any tech is foolproof it isn't, but we are 16 months out and there is no sign of this missing boy. If the infrared missed him you would think a searcher would find his non-hidden remains in one of the many searches of the woods.

It is a fact substantiating that 2 years ago the FBI thermal imaging was not capable of picking out a grown man in woodland - that is all. The scared 2 year old may have sat down inside the surface roots of a large tree & fallen asleep, making him invisible to air-searchers. Once his body temperature had fallen below the ambient ground temperature, he would not have been located by IR technology.
Sometimes a missing person is found in a place which has been searched several times.

 

[KatieLiz]

I don't understand why SO MANY completely unrelated cases are being brought up here, as if trying to set some kind of precedent for LE and FBI and 2 PI'S and massive search teams to be wrong.

So far as I can see not one unrelated case mentioned accurately ties in to Deorr's case.

It's all smoke and mirrors. Distracting us. Spinning webs like J and V. I'm not falling for it and I continue to question to motivation...

 

[KatieLiz]

Hi CoverMeCagney
Deorr wandering off into the woods & getting lost is one of the more likely scenarios (but doesn't follow with all my thinking). There are several cases where tracker dogs have failed to follow the scent of a child who went missing & was later found alive. (There was one in Ourem, Portugal just 2 days ago, 2 year old Martin who was found nearly 2km from place of residence). I am wondering if the tracker dogs in Deorr's case were actually tracking JA's scent rather than Deorr's - we don't know which "uncontaminated" item the dogs used for scenting.
The parents weren't the only people to fail the polygraphs, were they - all 4 parties did.? TBC, who wasn't even there, also failed one. Sometimes the police can be very good at distorting the truth into an apparent lie - it has happened often & innocent people have been wrongly accused. The Joanna Yates (Bristol UK) case is a prime example - fortunately for Christopher Jefferies the victim's body was found & DNA of the real killer identified, otherwise I dread to think what would have happened to that poor man.
My main concern is that Deorr allegedly disappeared during what seemed to be the first & only time period on the trip he was not under the watch of either parent. IMO he either fell or was taken down the bank, out of GPP's sight,. IMO IR holds the key as to where he was then taken & concealed.
Were there any firearms or axes found at the site, do you know?

Are you for real?? IR? Alone??? Jessica admitted he was fishing at the creek with her and Vernal was the one not there. Not to mention IR had no access to a vehicle. Where is Deorr?? IR snuck the shovel away without 2 worried parents and GGP questioning where he was taking a shovel while Deorr is missing? And he buried him somewhere and so well that LE and searches didn't find recently disturbed ground?

Come on. That's not even plausible anymore with everything we now know.

 

[KatieLiz]

It is a fact substantiating that 2 years ago the FBI thermal imaging was not capable of picking out a grown man in woodland - that is all. The scared 2 year old may have sat down inside the surface roots of a large tree & fallen asleep, making him invisible to air-searchers. Once his body temperature had fallen below the ambient ground temperature, he would not have been located by IR technology.
Sometimes a missing person is found in a place which has been searched several times.

BBM-- But didn't you JUST say that "...IR holds the key to where he was then taken and concealed." You've also mentioned.many times about Deorr falling down the bank and been pretty positive that happened.

So... ?

 

[koios]

I consider it improbable in this case that any more than one of the adults knows what happened.

 

[neesaki]

Hi CoverMeCagney
Deorr wandering off into the woods & getting lost is one of the more likely scenarios (but doesn't follow with all my thinking). There are several cases where tracker dogs have failed to follow the scent of a child who went missing & was later found alive. (There was one in Ourem, Portugal just 2 days ago, 2 year old Martin who was found nearly 2km from place of residence). I am wondering if the tracker dogs in Deorr's case were actually tracking JA's scent rather than Deorr's - we don't know which "uncontaminated" item the dogs used for scenting.
The parents weren't the only people to fail the polygraphs, were they - all 4 parties did.? TBC, who wasn't even there, also failed one. Sometimes the police can be very good at distorting the truth into an apparent lie - it has happened often & innocent people have been wrongly accused. The Joanna Yates (Bristol UK) case is a prime example - fortunately for Christopher Jefferies the victim's body was found & DNA of the real killer identified, otherwise I dread to think what would have happened to that poor man.
My main concern is that Deorr allegedly disappeared during what seemed to be the first & only time period on the trip he was not under the watch of either parent. IMO he either fell or was taken down the bank, out of GPP's sight,. IMO IR holds the key as to where he was then taken & concealed.
Were there any firearms or axes found at the site, do you know?

No, the parents failed the polygraphs. The other two campers were inconclusive. Why? Because they are both most likely on medications that interfere with the polygraph results thus causing them to be inconclusive. Look up meds that taint polygraph tests. Here's one link of an example: https://www.reference.com/health/drugs-affect-lie-detector-test-fe6e6c1f1f543da2

That said, I still don't believe IR. Period. And GGP, well, let's just call him "the silent type"... no doubt for good reason. But between IR and the parents, their stories just don't match, they all have different versions. Several of them. Why, because they're not facts, they're fabrications.

BTW, how could anyone that's followed this case since the beginning not realize that this whole masquerade has been nothing but a collusion between the four of these "campers", regardless of the cause of Deorr's disappearance. In the beginning, we were all giving them the benefit of the doubt. We all thought he had wondered off and gotten lost, or taken by a mountain lion. Then there was the abduction story by the parents. But then, they didn't want to publicize it, have a hotline, or offer a reward. This is not what parents do who have a missing child. Period. Little Deorr's parents have never come out and begged for him back, they still aren't. You want to see what loving parents do when their child goes missing ? Just take a look at the Jacob Wetterling case, it's the difference in night and day.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?579-Jacob-Wetterling

ETA: misty48, I'd appreciate a response and explanation. Maybe it would help bring about some understanding, or not. TIA

 

[Onebest]

Its totally absurd to me that anyone would try to absolve JM-whatever her name is now and VK from allowing their precious baby to disappear off the face of the earth, for lying repeatedly to the FBI, LE, Investigators, the public who reached out to help them and their families who loved baby Deoor. It disgusts me to the core that they cannot seem to realize the horror of the crimes they have committed. THEY were responsible for his safety, his welfare and care. To blame anyone else is just reaching. I am not going in those circles of deceptive thinking and blame trying to take the focus off the two suspects. The parents were named suspects for a reason. Not GGP, not IR, not TBC but the parents. JMO.

 

[tlcya]

Going Off Topic for a sec

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[Onebest]

I consider it improbable in this case that any more than one of the adults knows what happened.

Well aparently JM whatever and VK disagree since they both tried to throw each other under the bus. I call that casting blame in the opposite direction to take the focus off themselves. Either way, it appears they're in total collusion with each other, which is why we still don't know what happened. JMO

 

[neesaki]

Are you for real?? IR? Alone??? Jessica admitted he was fishing at the creek with her and Vernal was the one not there. Not to mention IR had no access to a vehicle. Where is Deorr?? IR snuck the shovel away without 2 worried parents and GGP questioning where he was taking a shovel while Deorr is missing? And he buried him somewhere and so well that LE and searches didn't find recently disturbed ground?

Come on. That's not even plausible anymore with everything we now know.

BBM-- But didn't you JUST say that "...IR holds the key to where he was then taken and concealed." You've also mentioned.many times about Deorr falling down the bank and been pretty positive that happened.

So... ?

Exactly, KatieLiz. This kind of smoke and mirrors stuff, I don't buy into. JMO

 

[The Apparition]

I consider it improbable in this case that any more than one of the adults knows what happened.

And that is the line that broke Websleuths.

 

[neesaki]

Sorry to be Off Topic, and not to be offensive, but this is just about how I'm feeling right now.

[video=youtube;IH_dSlEAl0A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH_dSlEAl0A[/video]