ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow - Tylee Ryan - Tammy Daybell - Charles Vallow - *Arrests* #67

[Kemug]

It was his version of a standard divination tool used in folk magic, usually to help someone make a decision.

Though you could rig one up with a small rock and string, it’s now most often a crystal with a terminated (pointed) end, the other end fitted into setting that can be attached to fine jewelry chain. Depending on the length of the chain, it can also be a necklace.

The diviner holds it steady above a flat surface until it begins to move, swinging in one or another direction, or maybe going around in a circle, without his conscious intervention. It is usually stated at the beginning which direction is supposed to signify what. Chad used it to determine someone’s degrees of LIght or Dark.

Wow, I missed that! Did he also predict babies' genders at the same time?! He could have made a nice little living out of that. Though on second thoughts, that wouldn't have been a 100% success rate, unlike zombie decisions, which of course were 100%, surprisingly.

 

[CSIDreamer]

I guess the people who learned from Chad and his stolen necklace that they were Nephi or Isaac's mother or Joseph, father of Jesus, Maroni's nanny and stuff like that.....They could be decent jurors from his point of view- unless they have now realized that they lost their marriages and life savings and the world didn't end after all.

MOO

Who did he steal it from? I'm not remembering this.

 

[Ruminations]

Who did he steal it from? I'm not remembering this.

He found it cleaning a the church and did not turn it into the lost and found according to Shawn LB and Glatt. Instead, he used it just like the baby shower trick- but to confirm stuff like who was whom in previous lives.

(It occurred to me upon writing this that the veil apparently was only ripped enough to see what spirits did in this world and in some afterlife world. But not who people were on other planets. Because- duh- the history of other planets is not available at his local library or or searchable on google.)

MOO

 

[CSIDreamer]

He found it cleaning a the church and did not turn it into the lost and found according to Shawn LB and Glatt. Instead, he used it just like the baby shower trick- but to confirm stuff like who was whom in previous lives.

(It occurred to me upon writing this that the veil apparently was only ripped enough to see what spirits did in this world and in some afterlife world. But not who people were on other planets. Because- duh- the history of other planets is not available at his local library or or searchable on google.)

MOO

Thanks. That had went right over my head.

 

[Kemug]

So let's charge him with theft as well!

 

[CSIDreamer]

FYI

From Nate Eaton:

Need your help. We are exploring the possibility of hiring a sketch artist to be inside the courtroom at Lori Daybell's trial. This person needs to have experience as an artist and must be able to go to the Ada County Courthouse every weekday for up to 10 weeks. It's also very help if they live in the Boise area. If you know of someone, please send me a PM or email [email protected].

Nate Eaton - Reporter

Need your help. We are exploring the possibility of hiring a sketch artist to be inside the courtroom at Lori Daybell's trial. This person needs to have experience as an artist and must be able to go...

www.facebook.com

 

[indicolite22]

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/...cost-idaho-taxpayers-[I]over-3-6m-so-far/[/I]

EastIdahoNews.com asked Madison County, the city of Rexburg and Fremont County to provide an estimated cost of the cases between late 2019 and Dec. 2022.

• Madison County spent approximately $416,520
• The city of Rexburg spent approximately $1,465,701
• Fremont County spent approximately $1,750,000

 

[watergirl62]

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/...cost-idaho-taxpayers-[I]over-3-6m-so-far/[/I]

EastIdahoNews.com asked Madison County, the city of Rexburg and Fremont County to provide an estimated cost of the cases between late 2019 and Dec. 2022.

• Madison County spent approximately $416,520
• The city of Rexburg spent approximately $1,465,701
• Fremont County spent approximately $1,750,000

Maybe they should charge 0.50 a minute for that audio.

 

[fred&edna]

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/...cost-idaho-taxpayers-[I]over-3-6m-so-far/[/I]

EastIdahoNews.com asked Madison County, the city of Rexburg and Fremont County to provide an estimated cost of the cases between late 2019 and Dec. 2022.

• Madison County spent approximately $416,520
• The city of Rexburg spent approximately $1,465,701
• Fremont County spent approximately $1,750,000

I know the AG's office has been involved in the investigations... is that considered "taxpayer dollars" and reflected in these amounts? How does that work?

 

[887sMtreme]

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/...cost-idaho-taxpayers-[I]over-3-6m-so-far/[/I]

EastIdahoNews.com asked Madison County, the city of Rexburg and Fremont County to provide an estimated cost of the cases between late 2019 and Dec. 2022.

• Madison County spent approximately $416,520
• The city of Rexburg spent approximately $1,465,701
• Fremont County spent approximately $1,750,000

Do these figures include normal salaries of people assigned to the case And other operating funds?

 

[indicolite22]

Brian Entin interviewed a cult expert Rick Alan Ross who compares Chad to Charles Manson and Lori to Manson's follower Leslie Van Houten.

Ross: "I absolutely consider Chad Daybell a cult leader."

 

[pizzaman12]

Brian Entin interviewed a cult expert Rick Alan Ross who compares Chad to Charles Manson and Lori to Manson's follower Leslie Van Houten.

Ross: "I absolutely consider Chad Daybell a cult leader."

Sweet, a guy without access to actual evidence offering up a conclusion that CD was the mastermind and LV was a follower. (literally to the Mason/Van Houten extreme)

He keeps saying, "in my mind". I would love if anything he's saying would be supported with any facts as we're not trying this case in the court of public opinion.

Given how pathetically they used burner phones (I have a hard time calling them that when they utilized them in such an absurd manner) and what has been collected on a whole, I feel the forensic and digital evidence will be overwhelming. At this point, I'm more concerned about the state simply blowing this (IE, Barry Morphew).

Why in that last 3 years, we're now interested in what he has to say? I know he's spoken on Dr. Phil about cults and whatnot.

He reminds me of Sgt. Paul McManigal, who was the (in my opinion), one of the wildest "expert" testimonies I've seen. (Alex Murdaugh case)

All just my opinion but I think the evidence will be there

 

[indicolite22]

Sweet, a guy without access to actual evidence offering up a conclusion that CD was the mastermind and LV was a follower. (literally to the Mason/Van Houten extreme)

He keeps saying, "in my mind". I would love if anything he's saying would be supported with any facts as we're not trying this case in the court of public opinion.

Given how pathetically they used burner phones (I have a hard time calling them that when they utilized them in such an absurd manner) and what has been collected on a whole, I feel the forensic and digital evidence will be overwhelming. At this point, I'm more concerned about the state simply blowing this (IE, Barry Morphew).

Why in that last 3 years, we're now interested in what he has to say? I know he's spoken on Dr. Phil about cults and whatnot.

He reminds me of Sgt. Paul McManigal, who was the (in my opinion), one of the wildest "expert" testimonies I've seen. (Alex Murdaugh case)

All just my opinion but I think the evidence will be there

In the past Rick Ross also talked about this case on Court TV and on Nancy Grace's podcast. His 2014 book title is "Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out". Apparently he's an expert on deprogramming. He is quoted in Glatt's book about this case. Like with other experts and "experts" that appear in the media, you decide whether you agree with their opinion or not.

He made another comparison in early 2020:
"This reminds me of the Lundgren Group in Kirtland, Ohio when children disappeared, parents disappeared, and Lundgren later was convicted of murder, and he was executed in 2006," said Rick Ross. "Number one, that it’s a personality-driven group with a living leader who has absolute authority."

Expert: Mother of missing children and her new husband are part of a cult

It is known that Chad Daybell, the new husband of a woman whose children remain missing, is a religious author, but could he also be a cult leader? FOX 10's Justin Lum reports.

www.fox10phoenix.com

 

[Ruminations]

Sweet, a guy without access to actual evidence offering up a conclusion that CD was the mastermind and LV was a follower. (literally to the Mason/Van Houten extreme)

He keeps saying, "in my mind". I would love if anything he's saying would be supported with any facts as we're not trying this case in the court of public opinion.

Given how pathetically they used burner phones (I have a hard time calling them that when they utilized them in such an absurd manner) and what has been collected on a whole, I feel the forensic and digital evidence will be overwhelming. At this point, I'm more concerned about the state simply blowing this (IE, Barry Morphew).

Why in that last 3 years, we're now interested in what he has to say? I know he's spoken on Dr. Phil about cults and whatnot.

He reminds me of Sgt. Paul McManigal, who was the (in my opinion), one of the wildest "expert" testimonies I've seen. (Alex Murdaugh case)

All just my opinion but I think the evidence will be there

I believe it. I think Chad was manipulating Lori in an abusive cult-leader way.

I also think Lori is guilty of the crimes with which she is charged, and guilty of crimes with which she hasn't been charged. Some of those crimes had nothing to do with Chad. (ex. Creating illness in Tylee)

It is not as if Chad being a cult leader absolves Lori in any way. It's not as if acknowledging this is going to help her case.

On the other hand, refusing to acknowledge that Chad was manipulating Lori COULD help Chad's case.

That seems to be Chad's strategy. There was no cult. I am no cult leader, just a humble gawky guy. The mainstream LDS church knew what I was doing and tacitly supported it. Lori and Alex learned their spiritual justifications for murder from the LDS church.

Then they framed me.

Denying the cult leader qualities of Chad plays right into his defense.

(But this is complicated. I agree with the assertion that the LDS church did tacitly support Chad- even though they did stop selling his books at Deseret and ultimately excommunicated him. In spite of that tacit support, I still consider Chad a cult leader. The church tacitly supported Chads supporters and suppressed criticism such as by his SIL. The church was aware of his "teachings" from people such as his SIL. The problem is the church won't go all the way with quashing Church of the Firstborn tenets. LDS teaches that church leaders are literal prophets who have communicated in a literal way with God. That puts them in a bad position- current prophets lose their credibility if they question the credibility of previous prophets. Then cults easily spring up- citing prophets that taught things that the current church does not emphasize. But the current church does not divorce itself from old teachings, either. The only way out of being a cult factory for the church is to teach that prophets haven't literally communicated with God. Then they can move away from teachings they want to move away from, as culture evolves. I think the vast majority of LDS church members are unaware of the older de-emphasized teachings- and of course are overwhelmingly good people living good lives. But the church teachings, especially of old prophets, can and does get used to create cults and give them credibility.)

MOO

Edited for clarity. The edits probably didn't help. I'm not sure if I have adequately explained my complicated position.

1) The LDS faith facilitates the development of cults

2) Chad was indeed a cult leader, facilitated by the church

3) Denying that Chad is a cult leader helps Chad's defense

4) Denying that the LDS church facilitates the development of cults makes it impossible for the church to help prevent cults and related tragedies in the future

5) Chad's being a cult leader does not absolve Lori

6) LDS's facilitation of cults does not absolve Chad.

MOO

 

[indicolite22]

I believe it. I think Chad was manipulating Lori in an abusive cult-leader way.

I also think Lori is guilty of the crimes with which she is charged, and guilty of crimes with which she hasn't been charged. Some of those crimes had nothing to do with Chad. (ex. Creating illness in Tylee)

It is not as if Chad being a cult leader absolves Lori in any way. It's not as if acknowledging this is going to help her case.

On the other hand, refusing to acknowledge that Chad was manipulating Lori COULD help Chad's case.

That seems to be Chad's strategy. There was no cult. I am no cult leader, just a humble gawky guy. The mainstream LDS church knew what I was doing and tacitly supported it. Lori and Alex learned their spiritual justifications for murder from the LDS church.

Then they framed me.

Denying the cult leader qualities of Chad plays right into his defense.

(But this is complicated. I agree with the assertion that the LDS church did tacitly support Chad- even though they did stop selling his books at Deseret and ultimately excommunicated him. In spite of that tacit support, I still consider Chad a cult leader. The church tacitly supported Chads supporters and suppressed criticism such as by his SIL. The church was aware of his "teachings" from people such as his SIL. The problem is the church won't go all the way with quashing Church of the Firstborn tenets. LDS teaches that church leaders are literal prophets who have communicated in a literal way with God. That puts them in a bad position- current prophets lose their credibility if they question the credibility of previous prophets. Then cults easily spring up- citing prophets that taught things that the current church does not emphasize. But the current church does not divorce itself from old teachings, either. The only way out of being a cult factory for the church is to teach that prophets haven't literally communicated with God. Then they can move away from teachings they want to move away from, as culture evolves. I think the vast majority of LDS church members are unaware of the older de-emphasized teachings- and of course are overwhelmingly good people living good lives. But the church teachings, especially of old prophets, can and does get used to create cults and give them credibility.)

MOO

Edited for clarity. The edits probably didn't help. I'm not sure if I have adequately explained my complicated position.

1) The LDS faith facilitates the development of cults

2) Chad was indeed a cult leader, facilitated by the church

3) Denying that Chad is a cult leader helps Chad's defense

4) Denying that the LDS church facilitates the development of cults makes it impossible for the church to help prevent cults and related tragedies in the future

5) Chad's being a cult leader does not absolve Lori

6) LDS's facilitation of cults does not absolve Chad.

MOO

The Church was aware of Chad's apocalyptic novels. He claimed for a long time that they were fiction, which he later started touting as prophecies. Chad also made predictions for paying members on AVOW. Did the Church know of his prophetic claims? It seems to me that the rest of his beliefs (including multiple probations, labeling people light/dark, zombie proclamations) were not made known in public. I don't even know if Chad's family were told about zombies. IMO Chad's SIL (and the Church) likely knew some of his doctrine, but not the part which led to the murders. Chad and Lori would not have made news for their fringe beliefs alone. You are allowed to believe whatever you want, but you can't kill people.

 

[fred&edna]

The AZ bishop (and others within the temple) knew what C&L were teaching, sharing, etc... and I don't think anything was done about it.

jmo

 

[Ruminations]

The AZ bishop (and others within the temple) knew what C&L were teaching, sharing, etc... and I don't think anything was done about it.

jmo

Right. Charles was trying to bring attention by texting Tylee and other relatives about a "Group of people from our church," per Tylee. He tried to get the bishop to listen in on Lori and the only thing he would admit to observing being "off," was her willingness to leave her children.

Was it nefarious? I doubt it in most cases. In most cases it was probably more like how a person will perform mental gymnastics to prevent seeing all the evidence before them that a loved one is an alcoholic in spite of many people around them pointing out the evidence.

MOO

 

[fred&edna]

Right. Charles was trying to bring attention by texting Tylee and other relatives about a "Group of people from our church," per Tylee. He tried to get the bishop to listen in on Lori and the only thing he would admit to observing being "off," was her willingness to leave her children.

Was it nefarious? I doubt it in most cases. In most cases it was probably more like how a person will perform mental gymnastics to prevent seeing all the evidence before them that a loved one is an alcoholic in spite of many people around them pointing out the evidence.

MOO

I'm not sure Charles was his only source of info, but you could be correct. jmo

 

[Ruminations]

The Church was aware of Chad's apocalyptic novels. He claimed for a long time that they were fiction, which he later started touting as prophecies. Chad also made predictions for paying members on AVOW. Did the Church know of his prophetic claims? It seems to me that the rest of his beliefs (including multiple probations, labeling people light/dark, zombie proclamations) were not made known in public. I don't even know if Chad's family were told about zombies. IMO Chad's SIL (and the Church) likely knew some of his doctrine, but not the part which led to the murders. Chad and Lori would not have made news for their fringe beliefs alone. You are allowed to believe whatever you want, but you can't kill people.

Yes, agree you can believe what you want but you can't murder.

Luckily his beliefs didn't have to lead to murder. The body count is high enough, thank you.

He had/has fervent believers who did not murder- far outnumbering those who did. Some of them seem more broken up by what is happening to Chad and Lori then by what happened to their victims. But that is not murder, and that is not most of the followers.

MOO

MOO

 

[Teche]

If my math is even close that's $120 for 8 hours of audio files.

These journalists need to start blasting the airways and print media. Plus, the fees are ridiculous.