Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *Arrests* #52

[887sMtreme]

Anecdotally, everyone I know who has been on a jury has taken their oath seriously and abided by the rules. Also reading interviews of jurors after trials shows the same thing. People are respectful of the process. This is the bedrock of the rule of law.

That has been my takeaway from both observing court cases and sitting in juries (three of them to date). It is a solemn experience.

 

[887sMtreme]

DBM -duplicate

 

[newbe68]

Lori told other people (JJ's school and her neighbor) that JJ was with his grandmother. I think it was only when that excuse didn't work with police that she thew MG under the bus.

The timing of JJ's murder is intriguing. My guess is that they had other murders scheduled and couldn't wait until after the visit, but hiring a nanny for one time only could also indicate a change of plan.

MG probably knows more than we have been told. One would expect her to be questioned thoroughly so I doubt she could hide much from the FBI. It's surprising that we learned as much as we did from her even before her first court appearance.

I agree and I thought at first that MG and DW were going to be their alibi. "How could we have done that with people here?" The more I thought about it the more I thought that JJ was already deceased when Alex brought him back home and that MG and DW knew more than they were saying . JMO

 

[887sMtreme]

<snipped for focus>
Lori claimed on the recorded call (and in an earlier call) with MG that JJ had to be moved for his safety.

BBM
In the sick thinking of this whole “zombie” business, Lori could actually have thought (or expected MG to believe) that the only way JJ could be safe was for the dark spirit residing in his physical body to be made powerless over him through his death. Remember, they believed the soul of a person who had “gone dark” — that is, had become a “zombie” — remained in a kind of limbo until the death of their body released their soul to go on to whatever divine afterlife they were due, to safety, in other words. “Had to be moved” could in that sense mean “had to be REmoved.”

Wow. Forcing myself to think that way even for the time it took me to write that made me a little bit crazy. Imagine how unhinged someone could become from living with that kind of thinking for years.

 

[Sleeplessinaz]

I am not as trusting as you, especially when children are missing. The fact that she lied about the missing children says it all to me. Why would you do that?

At that point in time, Lori was MG's very best friend and I think she lied out of loyalty, believing in the stories that Lori had fabricated.
I like to think that very few people would go along knowingly with the cold blooded, premeditated murder of children. That's why this case is becoming so infamous. It is rare. Just my opinion.

 

[Sleeplessinaz]

The zombie thing is really just Chad and Lori borrowing a term to describe someone who is possessed, right?
I've heard stories of exorcism, but I've never heard of putting the victim to death for it. Has this idea ever been found anywhere else?

 

[indicolite22]

BBM
In the sick thinking of this whole “zombie” business, Lori could actually have thought (or expected MG to believe) that the only way JJ could be safe was for the dark spirit residing in his physical body to be made powerless over him through his death. Remember, they believed the soul of a person who had “gone dark” — that is, had become a “zombie” — remained in a kind of limbo until the death of their body released their soul to go on to whatever divine afterlife they were due, to safety, in other words. “Had to be moved” could in that sense mean “had to be REmoved.”

Wow. Forcing myself to think that way even for the time it took me to write that made me A little bit crazy. Imagine how unhinged someone could become from living with that kind of thinking for years.

IMO Lori only said that JJ needed to be moved because she was busted for lying that he was with Kay. She tried to cover up the lie by inventing "danger" from Kay. There was no mention of JJ being a zombie any more, only that Kay was dark. Lori's story didn't make logical sense. Who knows what she actually believed.

 

[887sMtreme]

IMO Lori only said that JJ needed to be moved because she was busted for lying that he was with Kay. She justified lying by inventing "danger" from Kay. There was no mention of JJ being a zombie any more, only that Kay was dark. Lori's story didn't make logical sense. Who knows what she actually believed.

Yeah, that’s my unhelpful burden in this whole thing: trying to find reason in the midst of madness.

 

[indicolite22]

The zombie thing is really just Chad and Lori borrowing a term to describe someone who is possessed, right?
I've heard stories of exorcism, but I've never heard of putting the victim to death for it. Has this idea ever been found anywhere else?

An expert answered this question in a recent article:

"It’s important to say that this is not an idea I’ve ever seen promoted by anyone else in any Mormon group. The idea that you could become possessed to the point that you would lose your full identity, and that an evil being could take over your body completely, is not a Latter-day Saint teaching. We see it in popular culture, in Massachusetts in the 1700s, and in some Pentecostal accounts."

Chad Daybell’s strange end-times beliefs are not Mormon theology, says historian

 

[Clair Louise]

At that point in time, Lori was MG's very best friend and I think she lied out of loyalty, believing in the stories that Lori had fabricated.
I like to think that very few people would go along knowingly with the cold blooded, premeditated murder of children. That's why this case is becoming so infamous. It is rare. Just my opinion.

But would you lie for a friend whose children were missing and who married a man eleven days after his wife had died suddenly? Wouldn't that give you pause for thought? So many red flags here that people just ignored because they believed the ridiculous stories of the world ending and zombies and other nonsense and these people are having duelling bible verses arguments? Lying about missing children on the one hand and on the other killing and burying them but still quoting Bible verses at each other.
It is unbelieveable that these people really believe that God is going to save them above all people on earth.

 

[indicolite22]

But would you lie for a friend whose children were missing and who married a man eleven days after his wife had died suddenly? Wouldn't that give you pause for thought? So many red flags here that people just ignored because they believed the ridiculous stories of the world ending and zombies and other nonsense and these people are having duelling bible verses arguments? Lying about missing children on the one hand and on the other killing and burying them but still quoting Bible verses at each other.
It is unbelieveable that these people really believe that God is going to save them above all people on earth.

MG knew about Chad and Lori's affair, that they anticipated Tammy's death and that they were planning on getting married. Whether she believed the predictions or knew that murder would take place is another matter. It was a similar situation with Charles' death.

 

[GRT]

The zombie thing is really just Chad and Lori borrowing a term to describe someone who is possessed, right?
I've heard stories of exorcism, but I've never heard of putting the victim to death for it. Has this idea ever been found anywhere else?

What I read leads me to understand that when a person is a "zombie," a dark spirit has taken over that person's body and the original spirit has been pushed out and can only exist in a limbo of some sort until the body dies, upon which time they are released and can move on to heaven.

That's convoluted thinking to be sure, but if CD convinced LV that it was really true (she'd have to be mentally deficient), it would stand to reason that she would no longer think of the "bodies" of the children as actually being her children and she might go along with killing them to release her own childrens' spirits.

Never having met LV, I cannot say if she really believed that, and MG is unclear as to whether she thinks LV believed that, although MG found it to be suspicious teaching.

This is such a complex case and so many people are involved in small or large ways that I wonder if we will ever get a good understanding of what the players really thought. JMOO

 

[dixiegirl1035]

The zombie thing is really just Chad and Lori borrowing a term to describe someone who is possessed, right? I've heard stories of exorcism, but I've never heard of putting the victim to death for it. Has this idea ever been found anywhere else?

Oh yes, there have been deaths from exorcism -->> CONVICTIONS

Murder trial involving Satan, crucifixes, exorcism ends with conviction

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...d-son-while-trying-cast-out-demon-police-say/

Md. mother pleads guilty to killing children in ‘exorcism’ | WTOP

15 Real Exorcisms Gone Terrifyingly Wrong

 

[lake daze]

Lori getting rid of JJ's service dog in August should have been a huge red flag to everyone. Supposedly the dog comforted JJ so he could sleep all night. What did Lori tell MG, or for that matter, how could she explain this to Tylee? You just don't give up a service dog because you are moving, IMO. Lori must have been an amazing liar and story teller to get away with so much for so long.

 

[Leader6518]

I agree it's a long shot, but they're murderers, so I don't think they'll have anything better. I think everything hinges on putting all of the blame on Alex. And, while I think his death is more than suspicious, the autopsy said it was natural (although it contains a disclosure that it could be changed if more evidence comes to light).

I'm not sure a change of venue will help either one of them since the people most likely to be sympathetic live in Rexburg. JMOO.

Alex probably didn't own any pets, but I don't think that will keep CD from claiming he asked to use the pet cemetery to bury a couple of dead animals.

We'll just have to wait and see I suppose, but CD looked as though he was confident and in control at his prelim, so I can't imagine he's going to plead guilty. He think's he can beat this--JMOO--and I don't see any defense other than throwing dead Alex under the bus.

I agree, they are limited on a defense. Frankly, I MO, it wouldn’t matter if they had video evidence of AC murdering the kids. They knew the kids were dead and buried in CD’s yard. They helped conceal their bodies and lied to everyone about them. In the case they are currently charged I don’t see them having any defense. Coupled with them being charged with conspiracy to conceal evidence (the kids bodies), I can’t see them getting off on the current charges if it goes to trial before other charges are brought.

I would not be surprised if they did take them to trial on these charges and then hit them with conspiracy to commit murder on a federal level with evidence of all the murders across the two states. In that scenario they would most likely be already convicted for conspiracy to conceal evidence in the kids death. AJMO

 

[Laughing]

That has been my takeaway from both observing court cases and sitting in juries (three of them to date). It is a solemn experience.

Veteran of 2 juries myself, not everyone is completely open & honest with the Court during selection....

Most do accept the responsibility set by the court.

JMHE YMMV LRR

 

[indicolite22]

What I read leads me to understand that when a person is a "zombie," a dark spirit has taken over that person's body and the original spirit has been pushed out and can only exist in a limbo of some sort until the body dies, upon which time they are released and can move on to heaven.

That's convoluted thinking to be sure, but if CD convinced LV that it was really true (she'd have to be mentally deficient), it would stand to reason that she would no longer think of the "bodies" of the children as actually being her children and she might go along with killing them to release her own childrens' spirits.

Never having met LV, I cannot say if she really believed that, and MG is unclear as to whether she thinks LV believed that, although MG found it to be suspicious teaching.

This is such a complex case and so many people are involved in small or large ways that I wonder if we will ever get a good understanding of what the players really thought. JMOO

Lori at one time believed that Tylee was a reincarnated version of her dead sister, so yes, IMO it's possible that she believed in zombies.

 

[Cryptic]

Many religions also venerate special visitations

In any of these religious contexts, someone whose head isn't bolted on securely might easily confuse someone like CD and LVD as visionaries worth at least a listen. They could then just get sucked in. People say that would never happen to them, and then it does.

Very good point.

In addition to Joseph Smith, I am a generally aware that the title of the head of the Mormon church is "Prophet and Revelator". Thus, mainstream Mormonism seems to have a tradition of special revelations extending beyond the founder.

In addition, I think an earlier rash of murders connected to the Mexico branch of Mormon fundamentalism might have been "justified" by the leader claiming to have continued revelations that demanded violence.

In short, there could be two very different models for how the group functioned:

A. A hierarchial model where CD and LVD are seen as bonafide visionaries by the group. Once CD and LVD are accepted as "visionaries", the affirmation by the group of all "teachings", including zombies, is mandatory.

B. A looser "coalition model" where people who share general interests gather. Autonomous members then place various beliefs on a spiritual "buffet table". Leaders get to place larger portions in more prominent positions.

Members then sample the portions and accept the ideas that appeal to them. Though criticizing another member's "dish" is not a good idea, one does not need to accept every teaching.

 

[887sMtreme]

That has been my takeaway from both observing court cases and sitting on juries (three of them to date). It is a solemn experience.

Just had to correct a typo.

 

[indicolite22]

Very good point.

In addition to Joseph Smith, I am a generally aware that the title of the head of the Mormon church is "Prophet and Revelator". Thus, Mormonism seems to have a tradition of special revelations extending beyond the founder.

In addition, I think an earlier rash of murders connected to the Mexico branch of Mormon fundamentalism might have been "justified" by the leader claiming to have continued revelations that demanded violence.

In short, there could be two very different models for how the group functioned:

A. A hierarchial model where CD and LVD are seen as bonafide visionaries by the group. Once CD and LVD are accepted as "visionaries", the affirmation by the group of all "teachings", including zombies, is mandatory.

B. A looser "coalition model" where people who share general interests gather. Autonomous members then place various beliefs on a spiritual "buffet table". Leaders, of course, get to place portions in more prominent positions.

Members then sample the portions and accept the ideas that appeal to them. Though criticizing another member's "dish" is not a good idea, one does not need to accept every teaching.

I think A is how Chad's mini cult operated and B is how PAP operated.