Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *Arrests* #54

[DI_Isokawa]

Historically there were at least two Churches of Firstborn, one polygamous (LeBaron) and the other not (Morrisite).

The term Church of Firstborn (transitioning church) also features in Chad's friends' doctrines/beliefs, for eample JR's. She isn't into polygamy as far as I can tell. Her and Chad's friend ES recently wrote a book about the church.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Forever Young]

Officially, 1890. Unofficially... there continued to be polygamous marriages performed by the church for at least 13 years after that, despite their prophet Joseph Fielding Smith testifying in court in 1904 that "There never has been a plural marriage by the consent or sanction or knowledge or approval of the church since the manifesto." ("The Manifesto and the End of Plural Marriages" from LDS.org)

Prior to 1890, LDS leaders taught that polygamy was essential for full exaltation:

"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, p.268 - p.269, Brigham Young, August 19, 1866)

IMO, it's very easy to see how CD could have viewed taking more than one wife as a return to the church's original teachings. This is very common among LDS offshoot groups.

I was researching polygamy and exaltation yesterday and came across something I had not heard about before.

Apparently, according to doctrine, children who die before the age of 8 have not yet reached the age of accountability and will go on to grow and mature during the millennium.

Boys who die before the age of 8 will go on to plural marriage and exaltation.

The question was raised as to where will all the girls for the plural wives come from? You would need at least 2 girls who died before the age of 8 for each boy.

It was also brought up that the more wives, the higher the exaltation. So two is minimal, but it is better to have more.

Source is Sunstone magazine podcast beginning around the 15 minute mark:

Is Plural Marriage Required For Exaltation?

 

[squareandrabbet]

If AC was killing JJ, it seems odd to bring him back to #175, unless that was specifically to create the illusion, in front of MG and DW, that things were OK, IMO. If LDV killed JJ later, it is odd that no one heard anything. IMO. This subject is really gruesome. I cannot think of any murder in which the deed was specifically done in front of, or directly behind the backs of, house guests.

I'll raise you one better, with the story of a woman who separately murdered her three (!) children with the father in the house, all the while giving benign explanations for where the children were:

'I can't get the picture out of my head': Father of murdered children says | 12newsnow.com

Ariz. Mom Allegedly Sang to Kids During Smothering Murders, as Boy, 3, Fought Her to Save Siblings

This whole thing is screwy but I'd lean towards #1 or #2. DW said it appeared that JJ was sleeping on AxC's shoulder but was he actually sleeping? If JJ was already dead but then, why would he bring JJ back to the townhouse unless it was because he wanted witnesses to see JJ? Then LV made the excuse of JJ climbing on cabinets and that AxC took him. That would have been LV's excuse if MG/DW would have heard some sort of ruckus whether it be JJ being murdered there or being taken back to AxC's in the middle of the night while still alive. Peeling duct tape is real noisy and I can't see AxC/LV messing with plastic bags and duct tape at the townhouse with people over so at that part of the job had to be done at AxC's place.

Here's another thing. Since MG and DW were there the night JJ was murdered, why wouldn't AxC/LV have simply waited a day or two later after they left. Perhaps TD or the Daybell kids would have been home after the next few days and a hole had already been prepared. Maybe that was the only time for disposal of the body.

Lots of questions and theories. Hopefully more evidence will help expalin all this.

Didn't DW stress somewhere (Dateline?) that he "insisted" upon trying to see JJ after hearing the nonsense "crawling upon cabinetry"?

I mean, he clearly didn't "insist" very hard and was put off fairly easily; but it's also clear unless simply a massive case of CYA, that he was sketched out by something that he had seen in connection with JJ that weekend, because it seems a strange asseveration on the part of Lori, yes; but your mind doesn't automatically jump straight to "make sure the kid is unharmed/still alive", unless you've been privy to some information that leads you to believe that erasing the existence of a "demon-possessed" kid is possible on the part of the person claiming it. What could that information/evidence be?

 

[Satchie]

Didn't DW stress somewhere (Dateline?) that he "insisted" upon trying to see JJ after hearing the nonsense "crawling upon cabinetry"?

I mean, he clearly didn't "insist" very hard and was put off fairly easily; but it's also clear unless simply a massive case of CYA, that he was sketched out by something that he had seen in connection with JJ that weekend, because it seems a strange asseveration on the part of Lori, yes; but your mind doesn't automatically jump straight to "make sure the kid is unharmed/still alive", unless you've been privy to some information that leads you to believe that erasing the existence of a "demon-possessed" kid is possible on the part of the person claiming it. What could that information/evidence be?

RSBM
In his testimony, DW states he "asked to see" JJ.
https://www.youtube.com/watchv=3VMrCv4nwNo

I don't agree with your reasoning. He could just be the type of person who wanted to say goodbye to everyone who lived in the house where he stayed for the weekend. It is considered good manners and a social duty, even if the person is an autistic child, to acknowledge your contact with them by saying goodbye and wishing them well. He could have felt sorry for JJ.

ETA: I noticed in his testimony that on the Sunday, he says he spoke to Chad, asking him about his wife.

The fact that people were getting concerned about CD's adultery could have had an impact on the date of JJ's murder. Perhaps there was pressure to get it done from CD.

 

[squareandrabbet]

RSBM
In his testimony, DW states he "asked to see" JJ.
https://www.youtube.com/watchv=3VMrCv4nwNo

I don't agree with your reasoning. He could just be the type of person who wanted to say goodbye to everyone who lived in the house where he stayed for the weekend. It is considered good manners and a social duty, even if the person is an autistic child, to acknowledge your contact with them by saying goodbye and wishing them well. He could have felt sorry for JJ.

ETA: I noticed in his testimony that on the Sunday, he says he spoke to Chad, asking him about his wife.

The fact that people were getting concerned about CD's adultery could have had an impact on the date of JJ's murder. Perhaps there was pressure to get it done from CD.

Yes, well, "my" reasoning was based on DW's own words:

To find JJ's body, police tracked data from Lori's brother Alex Cox's phone. Family friend David Warwick testified on Tuesday that on September 22, the last day JJ was seen alive, Vallow asked her brother Alex to come and collect JJ.

'She said JJ was being a zombie. He was out of control so she had Alex come get him,' he told the courtroom in Idaho.

Lori had complained that JJ was climbing the cabinets and the refrigerator, and that he had smashed a photograph of Jesus.

Warwick testified that he and his girlfriend, Melanie Gibb, were at Lori's home to record a podcast and that they last saw JJ being carried by Cox. He looked like he was sleeping, he said.

Link is here:

Lori Vallow sent son to brother's home night before he vanished | Daily Mail Online

DW's own words scream that he was worried about JJ, IMO; not that he "thought it was polite" to say goodbye to everyone.

 

[Colorado303]

This is in reply to @JolietJake ‘s post on the previous page. Apparently I deleted the post link when snipping.

SBBM

Here's another thing. Since MG and DW were there the night JJ was murdered, why wouldn't AxC/LV have simply waited a day or two later after they left. Perhaps TD or the Daybell kids would have been home after the next few days and a hole had already been prepared. Maybe that was the only time for disposal of the body.
[/QUOTE]

That’s an excellent question and the answer would tell us a lot. It can’t be they needed to kill him that night because a hole had just been dug— Chad was well aware LV had houseguests that weekend. And if Lori simply wanted witnesses who saw JJ alive she could have paraded him through the complex or taken him any number of places that would have a record he was there. Even if Tammy were away that weekend, Garth still lived at the house and Emma across the street. Risk of discovery would be high with or without Tammy.

To me there are four possibilities that make sense (as much sense as anything in this case):

1. JJ was killed that weekend because M and D participated in the crime.

At first glance this would be a logical explanation, but after seeing their media interviews and testimony in court it’s hard to believe Melanie and Dave were involved. Of course, they could be lying. Only LV (and possibly Chad) would know it and they couldn’t expose the lies without incriminating themselves. But IMO Melanie and Dave seemed believable on the stand. I’d be surprised to learn they were aware of what happened.

2. JJ started saying alarming things about Tylee’s disappearance and needed to be silenced immediately.

It’s easy to imagine JJ saying things he shouldn’t, either on his own or when questioned about Tylee. But that wouldn’t require the risk of killing him immediately. Alex could just keep JJ away from the apt until the guests were gone.

3. LV lost her temper and killed JJ in a fit of rage.

Completely possible and not inconsistent w/AC’s phone records. As you point out Alex could have come back without his phone to get JJ’s body, or Lori could have brought JJ to Alex. However, since Alex was only at the Daybell home for short time the next day, popular opinion is Chad pre-dug the grave. For that to happen Lori or Alex would have to have called him in the middle of the night and tell him to start digging. Possibly w/Tammy right there. Would be interesting to see a record of LV and AC’s outbound calls in those early morning hours.

4. JJ wasn’t killed that weekend after all

This possibility didn’t occur to me until you asked “Why that weekend?”.

What proof do we have that JJ was buried that Monday morning? Can someone remind me if satellite photos show the earth was disturbed on Monday 9/23?

If not, this is a real possibility. Alex was at Chad’s for about a half-hour that morning. About the time it would take to break the news another body is coming and discuss logistics/location of an upcoming burial. Alex’s phone didn’t ping there later that week but that doesn’t mean Alex didn’t come back without his phone. Or LV could have driven the body over without Alex. Chad could even have driven to pick the body up himself.

Unless there’s evidence apart from pings that he was buried that day, I think it’s quite likely that JJ was still alive when Melanie and David left that morning.

 

[indicolite22]

4. JJ wasn’t killed that weekend after all

IIRC on September 23 Alex's phone pinged near the tree in Chad's backyard where JJ was later found buried. There were no satellite images available for September 23. Out of four Alex's visits to Chad's place, two were to the grave locations.

 

[lonetraveler]

There has been no indication so far that Alex could have been the ringleader or an ideologue who had a hold over others. On the contrary, evidence and testimony show that he was Lori's "protector" and a follower of Chad's doctrine. He did not stand to profit from murdering the children. Even if he did kill the children on his own accord, Lori's (non)reaction to it and continuous deception make no sense, especially after Alex's death. Alex's role in the group and absence of a personal motive don't speak in favor of him acting alone. (IMO)

I totally believe that if Alex murdered the children, it was at the direction of Lori. I do believe that she decided to kill off the children because they were in her way of being with Chad. Chad, IMO, gave her the indication that he was not interested in helping raise children, period. Lori 'conveniently' talked with others about the children being zombies. Well, we've learned what happens to zombies. This is why I believe that Chad wants a separate trial from Lori.
I truly hope that investigators can prove all the murders of the people involved.

ETA: I also truly believe that Lori was directly involved with the children's murders and may have even carried out at least one of the murders herself and helped with the other one.

 

[lonetraveler]

I'm guilty of that, as well as going on a deep dive over something relatively trivial, especially when the news is slow, in an effort to help keep the thread active.

I suppose threads go inactive all the time, but I'm not quite ready for it yet!

This case is going to be going on for many months. It's a good thing we continue to "live" together and not forget the real objective here.

Heck, sometimes it's literally years before a case goes to trial. I keep hoping for multiple charges for murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

 

[887sMtreme]

snipped for focus

I know strokes take a terrible toll. Both my sisters and my brother had strokes.

I’m sorry you and your family have suffered this way. {{{hugs}}}

 

[indicolite22]

Plus Chad put the White Camps in FLDS polygamy country, not Idaho or Missouri. Just hints, not solid facts.

Personally I find more indicative who Chad was associating with (PAP/AVOW crowd, JR/ES, etc). While some of his friends mention tent cities, I haven't come across anyone with connections to FLDS.

 

[Colorado303]

IIRC on September 23 Alex's phone pinged near the tree in Chad's backyard where JJ was later found buried. There were no satellite images available for September 23. Out of four Alex's visits to Chad's place, two were to the grave locations.

After the apparent issues they had with Tylee’s remains, I can see them having a pow-wow to discuss how and exactly where they would dispose of JJ. So Alex standing by the tree before the time of burial wouldn’t surprise me.

 

[887sMtreme]

Chad's doctrine has been summarized in IP's document. We also learned about it from MG. There was no mention of polygamy.

Good point. But Chad was pretty obsessed with telling women he was attracted to that they had been married in past lives. Maybe he liked the idea of “polygamy” as a long-term cumulative matter. Both he and LV seemed to think their plan could not proceed while their respective spouses still lived, with divorce not, apparently, an acceptable option.

 

[indicolite22]

I totally believe that if Alex murdered the children, it was at the direction of Lori. I do believe that she decided to kill off the children because they were in her way of being with Chad. Chad, IMO, gave her the indication that he was not interested in helping raise children, period. Lori 'conveniently' talked with others about the children being zombies. Well, we've learned what happens to zombies. This is why I believe that Chad wants a separate trial from Lori.
I truly hope that investigators can prove all the murders of the people involved.

ETA: I also truly believe that Lori was directly involved with the children's murders and may have even carried out at least one of the murders herself and helped with the other one.

Chad was awating Tammy's death for years. It was him who labeled Tylee dark from the start. He was the one who condemned Charles as a zombie. Chad participated in the attack on BB. Lori's kids were in the way - they could interfere with (or witness) the gang's plans to murder BB and Tammy. Chad wants to separate himself from the crimes because he doesn't think there's enough proof against him.

 

[Love Never Fails]

snipped for focus

I’m sorry you and your family have suffered this way. {{{hugs}}}

Thank you for caring.
I know so many have suffered worse. It’s just life and dying and it’s very hard. It’s good to listen to people who have been there and keep your BP in check and eat right etc. It is my belief God is in control.

 

[lonetraveler]

Chad was awating Tammy's death for years. It was him who labeled Tylee dark from the start. He was the one who condemned Charles as a zombie. Chad participated in the attack on BB. Lori's kids were in the way - they could interfere with (or witness) the gang's plans to murder BB and Tammy. Chad wants to separate himself from the crimes because he doesn't think there's enough proof against him.

So, according to your words, Chad is the 'Charles Manson' of the Manson cult.

 

[indicolite22]

So, according to your words, Chad is the 'Charles Manson' of the Manson cult.

You mean of his cult. As long as the ideology that justified murders came from him, then yes.

 

[indicolite22]

Good point. But Chad was pretty obsessed with telling women he was attracted to that they had been married in past lives. Maybe he liked the idea of “polygamy” as a long-term cumulative matter. Both he and LV seemed to think their plan could not proceed while their respective spouses still lived, with divorce not, apparently, an acceptable option.

Would divorcing/widowing and then remarrying several times count as cumulative polygamy?

 

[Kemug]

the nonsense "crawling upon cabinetry"?

Well, I was a bit of a climber as a kid, and that's something that I did, so I don't think that climbing up cupboards is odd at all. I also well remember sitting on my Dad's drop-down desk flap, which of course immediately tipped over. Fortunately I landed on the floor next to the desk, and realising that I would be in awful trouble, ran to my room and hid. My poor mother, running to the scene after hearing the crash, naturally thought that I was squashed underneath. Anyway, I soon emerged, and I wasn't punished at all, as she was so happy to see me in one piece. I wasn't pronounced to be a zombie, and have gone on to lead a normal life.

 

[Kemug]

If she did, I imagine she’d have given it up when she decided she was a goddess. On the other hand, maybe she’d have then thought she was creating scripture. Ugh.

No, the question was if Tammy had kept a journal.