Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 #5

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  • #741
If those "followers" have not broken the law, then they are whacky, but not part of this particular case. Look into the followers, sure... but I saw a disturbing trend in people being annoyed because they want the church to do something more than they are doing. They really can't do anything because they know only as much as we do.
Their followers may also be helping them, which is why there are WS people going down the LDS Freedom Forum Rabbit hole to pick up on that nuance. And as a fully active member myself I think our leaders *could* do more than they’re doing to indicate the fringe stuff is not acceptable, and to message to the people in their pews that if any of their members are helping CD/LV, to please assist law enforcement (also to stop hoarding ammo etc.); but for the most part they keep a don’t ask don’t tell policy until their hand is forced (a la Julie Rowe 4 years ago and her exing this year).
 
  • #742
Based on some timeline things, I think it's likely Chad did have a disciplinary council last spring, though it's unclear if it led to excommunication, disfellowshipment, probation, unofficial probation, or no disciplinary action. If it did happen, it could definitely be a factor in the events that have ensued. The rest of this is just for people who are curious about the LDS church and how it affects and intersects with this case. All MOO.

Members of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints often think or say the beliefs of splinter groups are far afield from those of the mother church, but there's ample evidence that many of these groups have in fact gone deeper into the lesser-known doctrines of the church, rather than astray from them. Unfortunately these doctrines can be misinterpreted, misapplied, or latched onto with an overly strong grip. *Or* can be accurately applied, as to their original/historical intent--the original intent now being downplayed/ignored by the main church (instead of outright disavowed by the church, which would be most helpful).

The church has made huge efforts toward mainstream acceptance, and this tends to ratchet some people in the opposite direction. Seeing as the church was founded by a visionary boy/man who was given special knowledge about the establishment church(es) had gone astray, the ground is very fertile for others to think the same thing is happening to them.

A useful site for understanding topics and trends within the church is the General Conference Corpus, where one can search nearly 200 years of church leaders' General Conference speeches (public twice-a-year conference where all high-up leaders speak), by word Corpus of LDS General Conference Talks, 1851-2019.

For starter searches applicable to this case, try "prepare" "last days" "second coming" "youth battalion" "persecution" "the veil" (as well as the prevalent older spelling of this term "the vail") "earthquake" "earthquakes" "year 's supply" (has to be searched that way, with the space before the apostrophe) etc. You'll see that these topics have been prevalent throughout the life of the church, with peaks around the early founding, before the turn of the century (late 1800's), and before the turn of the millennium (late 1900s), continuing to now.

Church members are in general kind, generous, good, trusting, and perhaps a little naive. As a whole, the membership of the main church is more aware of what the church has told them about the history and doctrines of church than the actual history. Over time, a clean and accessible narrative was deliberately chosen and taught in church curriculum, obscuring some of the messier aspects of the past.

Access to the internet has started to change that, and the church in 2015 released a series of essays tackling many controversial church topics, available here on the church website Gospel Topics Essays. Unfortunately the leadership has elected not to encourage awareness of this resource among the general membership. If any member reads these essays, consider chasing down the references in the footnotes as well to be sure you agree with how the essay writers interpreted the original words.

I saw a post on LDS Freedom Forum that really accurately portrayed what happens with those who go to the fringe and gain followers. "Apostasy" in this case refers to going against the church and putting yourself above the main church's higher leaders. It's one of the offenses that can lead to excommunication. This is from the LDSFF post about Chad Daybell's dream:

"After observing the likes of Denver snuffer, Chad Daybell and Julie Rowe over the past few years, I've gotten a better picture of how members of the church slide into apostasy.

At first the message is safe and simple : Follow the prophet, but hey, you know what happened to me?

Then it evolves into: I had an experience that makes me special, but you should still follow the Prophet.

Then: I have been given hidden knowledge concerning your safety or salvation, but you should pray about it and follow the prophet.

Then: I've been called on a mission to wake people up with secret information that is too dangerous for the prophet to say, so still follow the prophet, but pay attention to what I have to say.

Then: The Prophet has turned his back on my message because we must learn not to be spoon fed the gospel. God, in times of need gives revelation to those outside the system, in order to wake up the people.

Finally: The Prophet is fallen and lost. I have been commanded to right the ship. Follow me."
 
  • #743
Their followers may also be helping them, which is why there are WS people going down the LDS Freedom Forum Rabbit hole to pick up on that nuance. And as a fully active member myself I think our leaders *could* do more than they’re doing to indicate the fringe stuff is not acceptable, and to message to the people in their pews that if any of their members are helping CD/LV, to please assist law enforcement (also to stop hoarding ammo etc.); but for the most part they keep a don’t ask don’t tell policy until their hand is forced (a la Julie Rowe 4 years ago and her exing this year).
They HAVE said that - in general conference no less. Not sure if people care to pay attention to that, but they HAVE said it, more than once.

LDS freedom forum is a mess of angry bickering people. I know, I've been on that board for ages. Not sure how you're going to find out any of their identities though. I agree that there are a few there that I'd definitely classify as supporters.

What is it you think that the leadership could actually do rather than repeat themselves, that they are not doing?
 
  • #744
Can we please NOT attempt to somehow blame an entire church for the ridiculous choices of a handful of people who may or may not even still be members of said church in good standing? A lot of horrible people were Catholic, or various other types of Christians - do we simply blame Christianity for their decisions? C'mon.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
 
  • #745
They HAVE said that - in general conference no less. Not sure if people care to pay attention to that, but they HAVE said it, more than once.

LDS freedom forum is a mess of angry bickering people. I know, I've been on that board for ages. Not sure how you're going to find out any of their identities though. I agree that there are a few there that I'd definitely classify as supporters.

What is it you think that the leadership could actually do rather than repeat themselves, that they are not doing?

I think PR could comment and say “we are concerned for this family and their children — we do not endorse nor support their teachings or ideas, even if they’ve been in our pews — and would hope that if any of our members have information about the children that they’d cooperate with law enforcement.” I think they don’t because they don’t want to be associated with the story with any way in the press.
 
  • #746
I think PR could comment and say “we are concerned for this family and their children — we do not endorse nor support their teachings or ideas, even if they’ve been in our pews — and would hope that if any of our members have information about the children that they’d cooperate with law enforcement.” I think they don’t because they don’t want to be associated with the story with any way in the press.
Or perhaps LE has asked them not to step forward right now. We simply don't know.
 
  • #747
Or perhaps LE has asked them not to step forward right now. We simply don't know.
Are you saying you think it’s possible law enforcement asked the church to not make a comment? Not To encourage cooperation with them? When one of the only sources of information these people follow is the church? I’m not sure if thats what you’re mean.
 
  • #748
New video: Lawyers say husband of Lori Vallow made prediction on who will kill him months before he died

It has the story about CV's lawyers filing an order of protection against Lori but also a new interview with an employee of the hotel where Charles was staying. The employee expected CV and JJ to return to the hotel for breakfast on July 11 but instead police came to the hotel and informed her CV was dead. The lawyers say they could not find Lori in Feb 2019 in order to serve her with the order of protection papers and they even tried looking for her in Idaho because she had a talk or something with PAP. CV not only predicted his own death would be at the hands of Lori and Alex but he also had fears about Lori taking the children out of state. Lori had called JJ's school one day to find out if he was present. CV was afraid she would come get him so he went and got JJ out of school first.
 
  • #749
  • #750
They HAVE said that - in general conference no less. Not sure if people care to pay attention to that, but they HAVE said it, more than once.

LDS freedom forum is a mess of angry bickering people. I know, I've been on that board for ages. Not sure how you're going to find out any of their identities though. I agree that there are a few there that I'd definitely classify as supporters.

What is it you think that the leadership could actually do rather than repeat themselves, that they are not doing?

I'd suggest that when asked for comments that Mr Hawkins, rather than doing a Sgt Schultz imitation say something like "this group has no official connection with the LDS church, however we understand that many of our members are associated with the organization and would encourage anyone, whether LDS or not, who knows anything that might help law enforcement find these kids to contact the appropriate authorities."

Would it do any good? Probably not, but it might. It certainly wouldn't hurt.
 
  • #751
Are you saying you think it’s possible law enforcement asked the church to not make a comment? Not To encourage cooperation with them? When one of the only sources of information these people follow is the church? I’m not sure if thats what you’re mean.
No. I'm saying they may be asked to hold back right now for reasons we don't know about. I say we go back to focusing on finding a couple of kids.
 
  • #752
I think PR could comment and say “we are concerned for this family and their children — we do not endorse nor support their teachings or ideas, even if they’ve been in our pews — and would hope that if any of our members have information about the children that they’d cooperate with law enforcement.” I think they don’t because they don’t want to be associated with the story with any way in the press.

I should have looked down a bit more. You'd make a better PR guy than I would. :)
 
  • #753
Or perhaps LE has asked them not to step forward right now. We simply don't know.

I don't think anyone seriously thinks law enforcement has been in contact with the bigwigs in Salt Lake saying anything about this to them.
 
  • #754
Adam Herbets‏Verified account @AdamHerbets

A spokesperson with the Gilbert Police Department says the autopsy of Alex Cox will be finished approximately 3 months after his death on December 12, 2019.

Adam Herbets on Twitter

5:47 PM - 8 Jan 2020

Adam Herbets‏Verified account @AdamHerbets

Adam Herbets Retweeted Adam Herbets

Fremont County Sheriff's Office says the autopsy of Tammy Daybell will be finished potentially within 2-3 weeks. Could be longer or shorter.

Adam Herbets on Twitter

5:47 PM - 8 Jan 2020
 
  • #755
For those on here trying to defend or discredit the church take that to Facebook. I said it has everything to do with the church and I stand by that statement. That is not saying they hold any fault. When this is all over I think we will all see how big the churches influence can be in peoples lives and how it can effect what people do in these cases. To find these kids you have to understand WHY these people are doing this and to do that I think you have to understand the connection to the LDS church. Your church will look bad because of this case. It will be worse than the Lafferty brothers. Deal with it. Help find these kids. If your leader would come out and tell the AVOW followers to turn these people in, someone just might do it. Probably be as good of a shot as the $20,000. MOO.

Utah v. Lafferty - Wikipedia
 
  • #756
Adam Herbets‏Verified account @AdamHerbets

A spokesperson with the Gilbert Police Department says the autopsy of Alex Cox will be finished approximately 3 months after his death on December 12, 2019.

Adam Herbets on Twitter

5:47 PM - 8 Jan 2020

Adam Herbets‏Verified account @AdamHerbets

Adam Herbets Retweeted Adam Herbets

Fremont County Sheriff's Office says the autopsy of Tammy Daybell will be finished potentially within 2-3 weeks. Could be longer or shorter.

Adam Herbets on Twitter

5:47 PM - 8 Jan 2020

3 months? Any theory on why so long? I know nothing about the potential process, but am guessing the tests and such that might be done to Alex's body are more extensive because it hadn't been spending months decomposing before they got whatever samples they could. Is that possibly why or is it that whoever does this in Gilbert that far behind or prioritizing this so low that it will be that long? MOO
 
  • #757
Any word on JJ's biological mom or dad? Any mention of them yet by MSM?
 
  • #758
For those on here trying to defend or discredit the church take that to Facebook. I said it has everything to do with the church and I stand by that statement. That is not saying they hold any fault. When this is all over I think we will all see how big the churches influence can be in peoples lives and how it can effect what people do in these cases. To find these kids you have to understand WHY these people are doing this and to do that I think you have to understand the connection to the LDS church. Your church will look bad because of this case. It will be worse than the Lafferty brothers. Deal with it. Help find these kids. If your leader would come out and tell the AVOW followers to turn these people in, someone just might do it. Probably be as good of a shot as the $20,000. MOO.

Utah v. Lafferty - Wikipedia

Which is more likely? That Lori and Chad found some official, mainstream LDS doctrine that led them to hide or harm children or that Lori has a psychological problem that leads her to make the claims she has made and take the actions that she has taken? Chad, is more of a mystery, but it is 100% certain that whatever drives him is not informed by mainstream, official LDS doctrine. He may have started there, but he has gone a long distance from the "iron rod" and the "narrow way".

If the children are to be found, and we all hope they are found alive and well, it will be by putting ourselves into the mind of a mentally ill mother that uses religious, apocalyptic writings to provide a narrative to account for the emotions and thoughts of a mind that is not well.

Since Lori references the "interlude", I went and looked at the Gospel Doctrine lessons related to the Book of Revelation. The authors have take a decidedly symbolic interpretation. If your supposition is true, surely the authors of the official lesson material would have take a more futuristic, prophetic interpretation; which they did not.

Disclaimer -- I am not LDS, nor do I believe in a God or in Gods. I am neither a defender, nor apologist, nor attacker of the LDS faith, or any other faith good people find helpful in living good and useful lives.

== edit / additional information ==

After posting my reply, I did a quick Google search and found an article in the Salt Lake Tribune that also tried to make sense of the LDS lesson on the Book of Revelation.

Jana Riess: What do Latter-day Saints do with the Book of Revelation?
 
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  • #759
She hasn't said when and if Chad showed up, at least in her facebook post. My guess is, not very soon.
Or however long it takes to change out of all-black gear, put on normal clothes and walk out to the front yard...
 
  • #760
Can I post a blogger that seems to belong to Melani's new husband, or is that a violation?

No. Sleuthing, linking to and discussing the social media of anyone other than the immediate victims (the missing children Joshua Jaxon and Tylee Ashlyn Ryan) and officially named POIs (Lori Norene Vallow & Chad Guy Daybell) is not allowed.

The Rules can be found here and are also linked in my signature line.
 
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