Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 #5

[Rockyboy]

The word cult has been used a lot in this case by the media and on WS posts but there has been little to no evidence provided showing there was an actual cult. The Idaho police even said as much in one of their statements.

Does anyone have any real evidence of either of them trying to run a cult or to acquire a cult-like following?

It is clear they both held uncommon beliefs but running a cult seems to be a huge stretch.

Chad Daybell absolutely had a very large following as does Julie Rowe. For those who are not Mormon it’s almost impossible to wrap your head around the culture. For all of them, Russell M Nelson is their prophet and leader. They have most likely never talked to him nor will they because LDS leaders are not accessible on any type of personal level to any of the members outside of their daily security circle. So Chad, Julie, etc. show up and have amazing insights and “knowledge” and becomes accessible to these people. None of them would ever admit to following Chad but they do.......100,000 people in the AVOW group he moderated and ran did follow him. I don’t think it became a cult status within the AVOW group, but this summer it appears Chad, Julie, and Lori took it to that level. Juli was excommunicated in April, Chad sometime this fall, not sure about Lori. Those excommunications coincide with this ratcheting up in early 2019. I would be very surprised if those excommunications didn’t lead to supporters looking to Chad as a new leader being persecuted by the false prophet who presides over those who kicked him out. They all flocked to Idaho to follow Chad = cult to me. MOO

End-Times Visionary Julie Rowe Excommunicated

 

[spandangly]

The word cult has been used a lot in this case by the media and on WS posts but there has been little to no evidence provided showing there was an actual cult. The Idaho police even said as much in one of their statements.

Does anyone have any real evidence of either of them trying to run a cult or to acquire a cult-like following?

It is clear they both held uncommon beliefs but running a cult seems to be a huge stretch.

I think it's an issue of semantics and perspective. They would probably view themselves as "elite" Mormons, a sort of vanguard in the lead-up to the Second Coming. I'm not sure they're collecting followers so much as letting like-minded believers in on their "special knowledge".

An average member of the LDS see these people as just completely off their rockers. Though they built their crazy on LDS teachings, they're far afield at this point. Although I certainly think the LDS Church needs to recognize how their teachings might play into and even enable delusions and abuse of this type, I would generally agree that there isn't any real relation to the greater LDS church.

I absolutely think any congregation in ID, UT, AZ (at least)should pass out missing children flyers with their Sunday programs, at the very least to increase pressure on anyone in congregations who hasn't come forward with information.

 

[jjenny]

So sounds like at some point Lori told JJ he is going to go visit grandma. Because neighbor claims JJ was the one who told them he is going to go visit grandma. Neighbor also thinks he saw Lori and Alex packing when they took off, not Lori and Chad. So where was Chad?

 

[BigAl16]

...
Interested readers could take a look at this four-page profile of the True and Living Church (TLC), an LDS splinter group that started in the 1990s (https://www.watchman.org/staff/jwalker/ProfileTLC.pdf). It shows the progression of a splinter cult, and you'll find that many of their end-times beliefs mirror things you've heard about from AVOW/PAP and their chosen visionaries (including the one with the crazy podcast episode many of us watched). This profile was written in 1999, and 20 years later people are still getting airtime for the same end-times bogeymen.

That's some wild stuff. MOO.

 

[tresir2012]

Has anyone heard the PAP talks that Chad, Lori, and others gave at conferences? Or read transcripts?

 

[Chewy1972]

deleted

I think it's an issue of semantics and perspective. They would probably view themselves as "elite" Mormons, a sort of vanguard in the lead-up to the Second Coming. I'm not sure they're collecting followers so much as letting like-minded believers in on their "special knowledge".

An average member of the LDS see these people as just completely off their rockers. Though they built their crazy on LDS teachings, they're far afield at this point. Although I certainly think the LDS Church needs to recognize how their teachings might play into and even enable delusions and abuse of this type, I would generally agree that there isn't any real relation to the greater LDS church.

I absolutely think any congregation in ID, UT, AZ (at least)should pass out missing children flyers with their Sunday programs, at the very least to increase pressure on anyone in congregations who hasn't come forward with information.

I agree with you. I was born in to the LDS faith however I currently would be considered "inactive" These individuals would be considered to be delusional and a lot of members of the church would stay away from these types of people however there are those few that would follow and as you said "play into" their delusions IMO... especially in Rexburg and Sugar City and surrounding areas... Just my opinion

 

[Ohmeohmy]

UPDATE 1/8/2020

Video/Interview with Charles Vallow's attorneys Arizona


Lawyers for Charles Vallow claims he predicted that Lori Vallow and Alex Cox will kill him

 

[BigAl16]

Chad Daybell absolutely had a very large following as does Julie Rowe. For those who are not Mormon it’s almost impossible to wrap your head around the culture. For all of them, Russell M Nelson is their prophet and leader. They have most likely never talked to him nor will they because LDS leaders are not accessible on any type of personal level to any of the members outside of their daily security circle. So Chad, Julie, etc. show up and have amazing insights and “knowledge” and becomes accessible to these people. None of them would ever admit to following Chad but they do.......100,000 people in the AVOW group he moderated and ran did follow him. I don’t think it became a cult status within the AVOW group, but this summer it appears Chad, Julie, and Lori took it to that level. Juli was excommunicated in April, Chad sometime this fall, not sure about Lori. Those excommunications coincide with this ratcheting up in early 2019. I would be very surprised if those excommunications didn’t lead to supporters looking to Chad as a new leader being persecuted by the false prophet who presides over those who kicked him out. They all flocked to Idaho to follow Chad = cult to me. MOO

End-Times Visionary Julie Rowe Excommunicated

100,000 people? Where did you get that number as AVOW people following Chad?

 

[j55stand]

From the link:
EXCLUSIVE: The former attorneys of Charles Vallow speak to Fox 10. “Steve, I want to make sure that everyone knows that if something happens to me, Lori & Alex did it.” 5 months later, Lori Vallow’s brother Alex shoots Charles to death & claims self-defense. More to come.
Justin Lum Fox 10 on Twitter

Also from Fox 10 Phoenix:
Good Lord, this story just gets deeper and deeper. Lori Vallow ex husband’s attorney speaks exclusively to our @jlumfox10 in regards to fear of his life. Stay tuned today @FOX10Phoenix to hear what this attorney has to say. #fox10phoenix

Alfredo Kaspar FOX10 on Twitter

Please Please focus on finding the children. I don't care about cults or mormons. Get word out and find those kids.

 

[Idaholocal]

Exactly - the apologists are too far in to comprehend how bizarre this relatively new ideology is and how they own all the splinters. I’ve learned a lot from the more level headed discussions with the ExMo community.

Wow I missed this whole “cult” discussion, huh? For the most part exmos have no problem describing the LDS church as a cult, they’ve been harmed by it and leaving is usually difficult and traumatic and they lose a bunch of friends and community and sometimes are shunned by family. I’m an active progressive member that sees cult-like tendencies (especially in the culture) that are repeated in other religions sometimes too. I do think regular church/members need to own that there are those aspects that have led to there being over 400 schisms/branches of the Mormon faith and that lead to stuff like this. In a way CD & LV & JRowe hold some basics of LDS beliefs and then just put them on steroids.

 

[155etta]

I have a question I hope hasn't been already addressed.

Can someone actually be hit in the head with a baseball bat (I'm presuming it wasn't a light tap) and have the presence of mind to grab a firearm and shoot someone in self defense?

IMHO, this does not pass the smell test. Has this crossed anyone else's mind?

He then also called 911 and performed CPR on Charles. Amazing isn't it? MOO.

 

[janewall]

If he started twitter in 2012, that would make sense. He'd be referring to Tylee. I haven't read so far, that he ever got married again.

Maybe Joe Ryan decided one marriage was enough after being put through the wringer by a narcissistic psycho! JMO; (sort of) j/k.

Case of 2 missing kids grows to include deaths, cult rumors

SBM

The 'other' JR, the visionary one who talks to angels, is referenced and quoted in this article. Does that mean she's now sleuthable?

 

[LHS]

This case has everything to do with the Church. Lori may well have went nuts and harmed her children regardless, but she would not have convinced people to support her without the church related cult stuff. Those people would have most likely had her committed rather than following her. This many people don’t all go insane all at once without an external factor and in this case it is completely their religion. MOO.

Nope. Sorry, this really does not have something to do with the LDS church. I'm an active LDS member, and I'm nowhere near as whacky as Lori is. She's taken doctrine from this church and twisted it into her own delusions. That's not about the church, it's about delusions. The church didn't abduct the children, or even remotely encourage any harm to these kids. They don't know anything about what happened to them. What is it you all expected them to say? They are likely hearing about this the same way we are - the news.

 

[LHS]

What some organization or group being a cult means is tricky.

He're the first paragraph in wikipedia:

In modern English, a cult is a social group that is defined by its unusual religious, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs, or by its common interest in a particular personality, object or goal. This sense of the term is controversial and it has divergent definitions both in popular culture and academia and it has also been an ongoing source of contention among scholars across several fields of study. It is usually considered pejorative.

Cult - Wikipedia
*****

By that definition most if not all religions meet the definition. Mormonism for sure does and the addition of more beliefs or an increased common interest in "a particular personality, object or goal" makes the group (whether AVOW or just Chad, Lori, Melanie, et al) even more clearly one.

I've seen another more useful and stringent definition formulated by an academic. This had some very specific requirements and at least the evaluation I saw that looked at Mormonism thought they crossed the line, but it was a much closer call.

But IMO, even if you say Mormonism isn't a cult, any reasonable definition is going to encompass whatever it is that Lori and Chad are reported to be engaged in and believe, assuming all the things that have been reported are basically true.

Actually ANY religion falls under the definition of cult if you go by that. No... cults very often have a very distinct and unusual goal from others, and they tend to ward secrecy and isolation. They also sometimes have charismatic leaders. I have said from the outset this is more like an extremist group and not a cult at this point, but it's a fuzzy line. However, I don't believe the point here is to try to vilify the LDS church who has NOTHING to do with what Chad and Lori may or may not have done. They don't advocate for ANY of these recent choice that this couple has made. This is NOT normal, and all of us LDS members are just as horrified as anyone else.

 

[LHS]

Can we please NOT attempt to somehow blame an entire church for the ridiculous choices of a handful of people who may or may not even still be members of said church in good standing? A lot of horrible people were Catholic, or various other types of Christians - do we simply blame Christianity for their decisions? C'mon.

 

[Gardener1850]

SBM

The 'other' JR, the visionary one who talks to angels, is referenced and quoted in this article. Does that mean she's now sleuthable?

We can only sleuth Julie R if is she is named a POI by LE. However, we can discuss whatever she says in MSM/News articles. It says there:

Julie Rowe, a self-described “visionary” and “energy worker” who says she has long been friends with Daybell, uploaded a video on her website defending him and claiming his innocence in the children's disappearances and the death of his previous wife. She said Daybell repeatedly told her he had a vision of Tammy’s death. Rowe claimed to have the same vision.

“My angels tell me that Chad Daybell is being falsely accused of the suspicious death of his wife,” she said in the video. “I have talked to Tammy’s spirit.”

Case of 2 missing kids grows to include deaths, cult rumors

I wish her "angels" would talk to the FBI and tell them where JJ and Tylee are located!

MOO.

 

[Chewy1972]

The flavor isn’t the issue when they’re all problematic. However, I’m perplexed as to why only glowing posts and apologetics are acceptable. Why can we only discuss one narrative?

I completely agree with you 100% .

 

[Idaholocal]

Can we please NOT attempt to somehow blame an entire church for the ridiculous choices of a handful of people who may or may not even still be members of said church in good standing? A lot of horrible people were Catholic, or various other types of Christians - do we simply blame Christianity for their decisions? C'mon.

I see very few people blaming a whole religion, but this isn’t an isolated incident unrelated to their religious beliefs—which from all accounts started mainstream for both and they leaned fringe until they fell off the pier. If we ever do find out the details I’m sure it will be religiously and financially based, I’m not even sure if the people involved can separate the two. I think discussing aspects giving context is fine and answering people’s questions. very few people are being derogatory about mainstream beliefs. But you have to admit This is different than just another religious person doing a bad thing — and if these people still have followers showing up sundays in full fellowship it’s fair game to look into what’s happening. and who knows, if mormon culture we’re willing to own the toxic parts that lead to stuff like this maybe we could rein it in and it’d happen less often. MOO

 

[Chewy1972]

I see very few people blaming a whole religion, but this isn’t an isolated incident unrelated to their religious beliefs—which from all accounts started mainstream for both and they leaned fringe until they fell off the pier. If we ever do find out the details I’m sure it will be religiously and financially based, I’m not even sure if the people involved can separate the two. I think discussing aspects giving context is fine and answering people’s questions. very few people are being derogatory about mainstream beliefs. But you have to admit This is different than just another religious person doing a bad thing — and if these people still have followers showing up sundays in full fellowship it’s fair game to look into what’s happening. and who knows, if mormon culture we’re willing to own the toxic parts that lead to stuff like this maybe we could rein it in and it’d happen less often. MOO

As I have stated previously I grew up and was raised LDS and have seen good and bad and ugly ...

 

[LHS]

I see very few people blaming a whole religion, but this isn’t an isolated incident unrelated to their religious beliefs—which from all accounts started mainstream for both and they leaned fringe until they fell off the pier. If we ever do find out the details I’m sure it will be religiously and financially based, I’m not even sure if the people involved can separate the two. I think discussing aspects giving context is fine and answering people’s questions. very few people are being derogatory about mainstream beliefs. But you have to admit This is different than just another religious person doing a bad thing — and if these people still have followers showing up sundays in full fellowship it’s fair game to look into what’s happening. and who knows, if mormon culture we’re willing to own the toxic parts that lead to stuff like this maybe we could rein it in and it’d happen less often. MOO

If those "followers" have not broken the law, then they are whacky, but not part of this particular case. Look into the followers, sure... but I saw a disturbing trend in people being annoyed because they want the church to do something more than they are doing. They really can't do anything because they know only as much as we do.