Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #44

[Knox]

I haven’t been able to post in a while, but having been keeping up consistently.

I truly don’t know if AC actually killed the children, it could go either way, and I understand why some think he may not have done the deed.

However, I go back to the beginning with everything we know now, and I can see how maybe he was the hit man.
- AC is said to be alone with sister SC when she died, using her credit cards.
- AC has been said to have ventured to other countries for prostitution purposes (these were mentioned in Gray Hughes videos early on)
- AC tasered JR and actually tried to get someone to finish the job while in prison
-AC was said to be LVDs protector from many sources at different times during the investigation.
-AC admittedly killed CV in “self defense”
-AC followed LVD to Rexburg
-AC was with MP trying to get kids when she was arrested and then bailed her out
-AC has been seen at storage unit on camera
-AC is suspected of trying to kill BB
-AC has electronic evidence against him in the case of Tammy Daybell (per a media source)
-AC is at the location where both kids where buried

Does all of this mean he killed the children? I don’t know, but when you look at it in totality, it doesn’t look good. JMO.

Oh wow, this is very compelling when you look at the totality of it all.

I would add:
-One of the last known people to be with Tylee & JJ just prior to their respective deaths (outside of Lori).

 

[gumchew]

RSBM

Exactly—- I remember in the very beginning when I was looking at the archived versions of Chad‘s books and websites. I know they’re still in the media thread. I first commented that I didn’t find him very religious because of the way he talked about ex girlfriends and told stories of the cemetery dates and so forth. You could say, in my opinion, that a very religious person would not put themselves in a position to spend the night in a situation like that. And I mean that from Chad‘s perspective and also all the other women that stayed. Along those lines I can’t help if what might have been embarrassing to Melanie wasn’t even mentioned in her interview. I can’t help but wonder if polygamy wasn’t discussed and/or brought up in these “small group” meetings.

Precisely. Given his previous status in his local ward, maybe someone should have explained that he was taking the term "lay leader" a little too literally.

 

[Knox]

This article has a lot of detail.

Unsealed court document details final days of Vallow children

One thing, JJ was up in the space between the ceiling and the kitchen cabinetry. MOO that is a child trying to get away, not a tantrum pulling everything out and open, although that may have happened first.

I'm scratching my head on how he could get from the kitchen counter top to the space about the cabinets? In my kitchen that would be impossible.

 

[The First Article]

This article has a lot of detail.

Unsealed court document details final days of Vallow children

One thing, JJ was up in the space between the ceiling and the kitchen cabinetry. MOO that is a child trying to get away, not a tantrum pulling everything out and open, although that may have happened first.

Could be.

The complaint she gives about him she is clearly trying to set up a "baby crawling on the ceiling" demon possession story. But yeah, if he was up there he may have been trying to hide.

If he didn't have a reason to hide yet, then I'm wondering if enough of his body is left to check him for sexual assault. If this wasn't just him on the counter getting morning snacks for watching the TV and then knocking off a picture because he was a kid, then this suggests pure terror. What was happening that MG and DW didn't hear anything but JJ was this terrified? Hiding after sexual assault after being drugged? Or what was Lori doing that was this terrifying to a young boy?

She thinks she was giving a good possession story that supported why she would do something horrifying to him - but in fact I think she is admitting to doing something terrifying to this child and then following it up by duct taping him then suffocating him to make him pay for being terrified.

Be Careful Mr Means, very careful.

From his body language with her in the second court appearance with him, I think he is afraid of her.

 

[vislaw]

Um, no. Attorney client privilege.

This topic is worth discussing so people can understand the issues:

1) Attorney client privilege simply means that what an attorney discusses with a client is protected and can't be revealed or put into evidence during a trial. A privilege (like husband/wife or priest/confessor) simply protects that communication.
2) Attorneys may NOT knowingly permit a client to testify falsely. This has nothing to do with privilege and, instead, is part of an attorney's oath whereby he/she may not suborn perjury or permit a fraud upon the court. An attorney may strongly suspect a client is lying, but that is different from knowing. If a client says to his/her attorney "I did it" the attorney cannot put the client on the stand if the client is going to deny it under oath. This is why most defense attorneys will tell clients up front "I do not want to know if you did it or not. Do not tell me." This gives the attorney cover technically. As you might expect, smart criminals figure this out and listen to their lawyers for cues to help develop a story. Criminals lie and it is important to realize that, even so, they are entitled to a defense. This is for the protection of all of us. We MUST insist that a prosecutor proves every element of a crime in order to have a rule of law that protects the innocent. Although we all believe Lori and Chad are guilty, we should understand that it is the job of the prosecution to PROVE it.
3) Our system is not infallible. Juries can do stupid stuff (i.e., Casey Anthony and O.J. Simpson cases, most will agree). Nevertheless, I truly believe it is the best system in the world because it does protect the innocent and most juries will try to apply the law as it is given to them.

 

[The First Article]

I'm scratching my head on how he could get from the kitchen counter top to the space about the cabinets? In my kitchen that would be impossible.

We used to do this in our places when I was a kid playing hide and seek. Usually you'd get up on the counter, then use the fridge to get up above the cabinets.

 

[KonaHonu]

@indicolite22 this is not directed at you, but your comment provides me a convenient opportunity to say this, so please know this is aimed at pretty much all of us:

I feel as if we all need to try to salvage a little empathy from the middle of our scorn and anger and outrage. It is very easy to dislike these folks or assign some evil to them by association. It's easy to say that anyone who is or has ever been on Team Lori and expresses support for her is either stupid or evil themselves.

RSBM

Let's not forget that, while he may not have been on "Team Lori," even Sheriff Humphrey's statement on December 20 suggests LE believed the kids were alive at that time and possibly just being hidden. So that belief was not unreasonable at one point. I admit I thought they were hidden.

At this point though it's hard to defend any thoughts that Lori is not responsible. Even her family members are turning on her. I personally would not blame they if the continued to support her and believe that she is just mentally ill. It's not a legal defense in Idaho but I personally san see how it could be a moral defense for her family.

 

[KonaHonu]

Oh, I most certainly agree it would have been a great idea and, obviously, would have borne fruit. However, I say that with the benefit of hindsight. The only issue is whether LE and the prosecution could present sufficient information to obtain a search warrant to search Chad's property. If they did not have Alex's cell phone data analyzed I don't believe they would have had enough basis (at least according to what info we are aware of). Back in December would they have had sufficient basis to dig up the yards of all the family members and Chad's close associates? Clearly not (in my opinion). Maybe it would help me if you write a simple paragraph that you would have presented to the judge supporting a warrant allowing them to dig up the yard without the cell phone data. You may be able to convince me. Give it a shot!

It's also important to note that the search in January is believed to have been related to Tammy's death. They were not looking for the kids. Clearly everything is connected with this group. But it was actually a separate case.

 

[gumchew]

Oh, I'm with you there. The other poster just noted they wanted to deep dive the OPPs for possibilities and I was hoping to make it a more streamlined path for them than to confront a wall of science that is a lot to digest at once (three mixed metaphors in one sentence - I KNEW I was off my game today! ).

The big question would be if it's merely a pulmonary embolism or a "pulmonary embolism secondary to ______."

I have a neighbor who's a pathologist who sometimes walks his dog when I walk mine. If I run into him anytime soon, will ask his opinion. My dog likes his dog and vice versa, so we might have a few minutes to chat sometime.

That would be so cool! Even better, get him interest in WS!

 

[Springb16]

I don't think JJ was really climbing on the cabinets. No one saw him doing that Lori claimed he was because she wanted MG and DW to think he was a zombie. In the most recent Dateline episode DW talked about this and said to him it didn't look JJ had caused the damage Lori claimed he did and the Dateline producer also tweeted this fact during the show.
https://twitter.com/DatelineNBCProd/status/1275256376189521922

 

[Michael0808]

This topic is worth discussing so people can understand the issues:

1) Attorney client privilege simply means that what an attorney discusses with a client is protected and can't be revealed or put into evidence during a trial. A privilege (like husband/wife or priest/confessor) simply protects that communication.
2) Attorneys may NOT knowingly permit a client to testify falsely. This has nothing to do with privilege and, instead, is part of an attorney's oath whereby he/she may not suborn perjury or permit a fraud upon the court. An attorney may strongly suspect a client is lying, but that is different from knowing. If a client says to his/her attorney "I did it" the attorney cannot put the client on the stand if the client is going to deny it under oath. This is why most defense attorneys will tell clients up front "I do not want to know if you did it or not. Do not tell me." This gives the attorney cover technically. As you might expect, smart criminals figure this out and listen to their lawyers for cues to help develop a story. Criminals lie and it is important to realize that, even so, they are entitled to a defense. This is for the protection of all of us. We MUST insist that a prosecutor proves every element of a crime in order to have a rule of law that protects the innocent. Although we all believe Lori and Chad are guilty, we should understand that it is the job of the prosecution to PROVE it.
3) Our system is not infallible. Juries can do stupid stuff (i.e., Casey Anthony and O.J. Simpson cases, most will agree). Nevertheless, I truly believe it is the best system in the world because it does protect the innocent and most juries will try to apply the law as it is given to them.

Nicely put! I bolded the area I am exploring to look for strategies that either LVD or CD’s attorneys may take that may hint that one or the other confessed to them. That was the main reason for my initial post.

 

[gumchew]

Thanks! Has it ever been established who was supposedly threatening Lori? Is there reason to believe that she made the threats up?

Q: How do you know when Lori's lying?
A: Her lips are moving!

 

[The First Article]

I don't think JJ was really climbing on the cabinets. No one saw him doing that Lori claimed he was because she wanted MG and DW to think he was a zombie. In the most recent Dateline episode DW talked about this and said to him it didn't look JJ had caused the damage Lori claimed he did and the Dateline producer also tweeted this fact during the show.
https://twitter.com/DatelineNBCProd/status/1275256376189521922
View attachment 252718

Getting up on the counter really doesn't cause any damage. Knocking a picture down off a fridge isn't pandemonium.

I'm sure that Lori sold that as something showing how he was a zombie, but I doubt there would be any damage. Pick the picture up. Done.

It sounds like her coming up with reasons as to why what she did was necessary, but I'm willing to believe her that he was acting like a kid and she felt that was a good enough reason to suffocate him to death and this was her partial admission.

 

[Gigi3]

Next >

I'd like to know more about the marriage and ZP. Why do you suppose ZP thought AxC wanted to take her last name? We've seen all the key and some not so key players interviewed. Everyone but ZP, why is that?

I agree with you, I'm starting to have some doubts about his role in killing Tylee & JJ too.

I’ve wondered the same about ZP and AC.

It’s been discussed many times about the name change, but I thought maybe because he was trying to hide his identity in all this. JMO.

 

[vislaw]

Nicely put! I bolded the area I am exploring to look for strategies that either LVD or CD’s attorneys may take that may hint that one or the other confessed to them. That was the main reason for my initial post.

I've known and worked with many defense attorneys and prosecutors. Both sides suffer from the curse of being human. One of the more provocative and thoughtful statements on the subject of representing guilty people I've read is here: Why Defense Lawyers Defend Killers and Rapists.

 

[Michael0808]

I've known and worked with many defense attorneys and prosecutors. Both sides suffer from the curse of being human. One of the more provocative and thoughtful statements on the subject of representing guilty people I've read is here: Why Defense Lawyers Defend Killers and Rapists.

That is a really, really great read. Thank you for sending it my way

 

[KonaHonu]

MP and IP were witnesses. And ZC and AxC reciprocated.

MP and IP were not at the AC/ZP wedding.

 

[RickshawFan]

I've wondered about the possibility of late-onset schizophrenia and/or the possibility of hormone flux causing some of the more rash behavioral changes in LVD.

Here's a link to a NIH paper documenting three such cases of menopausal onset schizophrenia:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3GQXEAx5LHsOBNrHKII7fe

On the upside, odds are good she will be far too vain to ever admit she was pre-menopausal or menopausal, so that can probably be ruled out as a defense.

Excessive levels of estrogen, such as that encountered on the menopause roller coaster can also increase libido in women, which might explain some other seemingly out of character/new behaviors in 2018 or so?

Add those conditions to existing patterns of behavior, and you most definitely get a whirling dervish that would be difficult to contain?

She's only just 47... And a hormone rush, even if LV was an "early adopter" wouldn't persuade you to kill or even to have sex hither and yon (which might not be the case here, either). At any rate, let's not pathologize menopause. No doubt, there are plenty of other more likely reasons for LV to do what she did.

 

[newsjunkie]

I'm scratching my head on how he could get from the kitchen counter top to the space about the cabinets? In my kitchen that would be impossible.

He might have opened the cabinet door and climbed up the shelves inside the cabinet like a ladder.

 

[gumchew]

Lori's sister (SS) suggests Kay Woodcock requested a welfare check out of revenge:

SS: She was being threatened... she was being followed.
SS: Kay was threatening her.
SS: I feel that Kay could have handled this a lot of different ways.... She did this very strategically and deliberately... This is a revenge situation. This is something that could have been settled much quieter and calmly... Lori should not have been forced to do any of the things she has been asked to do.

She also suggests that Charles had bad intentions and says that she was greateful for the outcome:

SS: If Alex hadn't been there, I think Lori and Tylee would have been in the news for a very different reason.
SS: I asked Alex the day before Charles was coming if he would please go stay with Lori... I didn't feel safe Charles coming to town...
SS: I was grateful also. It would have been a very different outcome had Alex not been there... He (Charles) was here with an agenda... He was here causing the trouble... He was here bugging her.

Unedited interview:

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Thanks. I understand your interpretation but I feel it falls well short of any reasonable person's understanding of the definition of slander. This is a woman who has been subjected to gaslighting by her sister. She had a lot of apprehension about her in-laws that was completely planted there by Lori and her narrative. The majority of her comments all include the words "I feel", "I think", etc, or are statements that do not implicate Kay or Larry in illegal or immoral behavior.

Forgive me but I guess my former Christian values are hard to shake. I just can't summon the moral superiority to judge this woman who has lost so much that is tangible through this series of events, while I have lost nothing here. I have suffered extreme loss and I know I didn't behave well in either the lead-up or the aftermath. I did and said things I still can't explain. I'm so grateful I didn't have the world's eyes on me.

ETA: I'm realizing "reasonable person" up above might imply I don't think you're a reasonable person. Rest assured I'm not saying that. It's more a reference to a "reasonable person" test (i.e. would someone not familiar with the detail of this case, and not emotionally invested in it, read those statements as false and damaging in the tortious sense?)