IDI: Whats your problem?

[BBB167893]

Yo! One second, please. They ended up everywhere. Not selling it. Those fibers could do nothing else but follow the law of averages. If they found them in those 4 places, it follows that they had to be found in numerous other places. Unless someone planted them.

Then I'd say the "planted" argument is your best bet! And that has a whole set of problems all its own.

Where were Patsy's tears found?

Excuse me?

 

[BBB167893]

Four (4) fibres consistent with the jacket worn by PR, on the tape touched by JR and FW (twice), following their contact with PR that morning.

Right.

Numerous other fibres on the tape, in the garrotte, etc, unsourced in the house.

There were no other fibers tied into the garrote knots that I'm aware of.

Nothing provided by the investigators to prove any of PR fibres found anywhere other than the tape or JR fibres found in underwear (just questions during an interview).

And yet not only does PR confirm they were hers, it conflicts with what her own book says happened to boot. Mm, mm, mm...

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Excuse me?

What, you didn't hear what WF typed?

And, what is RDI's explanation for PR's tears? In IDI, PR tears are not a phenomenon. In RDI they are, and as such require an explanation.

 

[MurriFlower]

There were no other fibers tied into the garrote knots that I'm aware of.
.

"Brown cotton fibers on JonBenet's body, the paintbrush, the duct
tape and on the ligature were not sourced and do not match anything in the Ramsey home.
(SMF 181; PSMF 181. )"

And yet not only does PR confirm they were hers, it conflicts with what her own book says happened to boot. Mm, mm, mm..

Keh??

 

[WHITEFANG]

And they only ended up on these four things? Not buying it, Fang. Sorry.

Don't take my word for it, Fang. Someone asked that exact question a few years ago, and a defense attorney said exactly the same thing I said. "Good faith."

Perchance, did he represent the fuzz? They have a "duty of care" as a public entity, to perform their job responsibilities to a certain standard. They could be shown not to have met their burden, IMO.

Just so I have this right, you're accusing an entire force based on the statements of ONE person?

Super, I referred to the leaks, too. When you sue say CBS News, you don't sue the cameramen.

The pervasive attitude among a number of the force was they were guilty from the start, which fostered an adversarial relationship, and hurt deeply the family of the murdered child.



.

 

[BBB167893]

What, you didn't hear what WF typed?

I'm not blind.

And, what is RDI's explanation for PR's tears? In IDI, PR tears are not a phenomenon. In RDI they are, and as such require an explanation.

I don't know about "RDI's explanation." As for myself, there are one of several possibilities:

1) She was already all cried out by the time the cover-up got underway (which is my take on it).

2) She was in such a state that her emotions couldn't come out yet. (Speaking from experience, when my mom died, I didn't cry at all until hours after the funeral.)

3) Don't forget: tears are water-based and there was time to evaporate.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I'm not blind.



I don't know about "RDI's explanation." As for myself, there are one of several possibilities:

1) She was already all cried out by the time the cover-up got underway (which is my take on it).

2) She was in such a state that her emotions couldn't come out yet. (Speaking from experience, when my mom died, I didn't cry at all until hours after the funeral.)

3) Don't forget: tears are water-based and there was time to evaporate.

Are you claiming that PR produced no tears following the death of her daughter?

 

[BBB167893]

"Brown cotton fibers on JonBenet's body, the paintbrush, the duct tape and on the ligature were not sourced and do not match anything in the Ramsey home.
(SMF 181; PSMF 181. )"

I should have figured THAT was your source. Leaving aside how outdated that information might have been at the time, it doesn't establish that they were from that night at all.

Keh??

That's right, mate. Here's the statement PR made that I keep referencing, from October 2002:

“When I - after John discovering the body, and she was brought to the living room, when I laid eyes on her, I knelt down and hugged her. But I was, had my whole body on her body. My sweater fibers, or whatever I had on that morning, are going to transfer to her clothing, OK?”

Ah, but there's a BIG problem with that. This is what JR said two years earlier in Death of Innocence:

Instantly, I rip the tape off her mouth, begging her to talk to me. I pull the blanket off her. I pick her up...run to the stairs...to the living room and lay JonBenet on the floor in front of the Christmas tree...Patsy is coming in the room...She must not see JonBenet like this. I get a blanket to cover Jonbenet. I lay the blanket over her.

JR establishes that JB was already covered before PR even came into the room. A FOXNews account (which I'll find--don't worry!) bears that out. Now, PR's story would explain how her fibers got on THAT blanket. It does not explain how they got into the cord knots, which she didn't touch, or the basement items, since she claimed she hadn't been in the basement. According to FOXNews, she didn't even lie on top of JB's top half.

Veteran Boston area prosecutor Wendy Murphy had this to say:

"For Patsy's fibers to transfer would require flat-out magic."

 

[MurriFlower]

I'm not blind.

I don't know about "RDI's explanation." As for myself, there are one of several possibilities:

1) She was already all cried out by the time the cover-up got underway (which is my take on it).

2) She was in such a state that her emotions couldn't come out yet. (Speaking from experience, when my mom died, I didn't cry at all until hours after the funeral.)

""Patsy was coming towards the body Of JonBenet, walking with the Assistance of Rev. Hoverstock, and her friends, the Whites and the Fernies. When she entered the hallway where JonBenet lay, she rushed to her and laid down on top of her dead child. Barbara picked up a gray sweatshirt lying on a chair and placed it over the child’s exposed bare feet. Arndt told the family and friends to gather in a circle around JonBenet while Rev. Hoverstock lead them in a prayer. In spite of the numbing shock and grief felt by everyone in the room, they joined Rev. Haberstock in reciting "The Lord's Prayer" as Patsy lay on top of JonBenet crying and moaning. Suddenly, Patsy raised herself onto her knees, lifted her arms into the air and prayed, "Jesus you raised Lazarus from the dead, raise my baby from the dead''
"

"Patsy also was unable to sleep even though heavily medicated. She constantly would get up, pace the floor and sob, “Why did they do this, why did they do this.”

3) Don't forget: tears are water-based and there was time to evaporate.

I think there might be more to tears than just water, so some trace would have been left. But like a lot of things to do with this case, 'innocent' evidence goes unremarked whilst anything remotely incriminating of the R's is blown out of all proportion.

 

[BBB167893]

Perchance, did he represent the fuzz?

Number one, the fact that you use the term "the fuzz" tells me a lot.

On to business. It wasn't a he, it was a she. And as I said, this was a DEFENSE lawyer, someone whose livelihood depends on trashing cops. Also, she wasn't involved with this case at all. So, no.

They have a "duty of care" as a public entity, to perform their job responsibilities to a certain standard. They could be shown not to have met their burden, IMO.

Sounds like you're describing the DA's office, not them.

Super, I referred to the leaks, too. When you sue say CBS News, you don't sue the cameramen.

From what I understand, there was a free-for-all of leaks from EVERYONE involved.

The pervasive attitude among a number of the force was they were guilty from the start, which fostered an adversarial relationship, and hurt deeply the family of the murdered child.

Chicken or egg, Fang? Seems to me the adversarial relationship was the fault of the family.

 

[BBB167893]

Are you claiming that PR produced no tears following the death of her daughter?

Don't put words in my mouth! I didn't say anything of the kind.

 

[BBB167893]

""Patsy was coming towards the body Of JonBenet, walking with the Assistance of Rev. Hoverstock, and her friends, the Whites and the Fernies. When she entered the hallway where JonBenet lay, she rushed to her and laid down on top of her dead child. Barbara picked up a gray sweatshirt lying on a chair and placed it over the child’s exposed bare feet. Arndt told the family and friends to gather in a circle around JonBenet while Rev. Hoverstock lead them in a prayer. In spite of the numbing shock and grief felt by everyone in the room, they joined Rev. Haberstock in reciting "The Lord's Prayer" as Patsy lay on top of JonBenet crying and moaning. Suddenly, Patsy raised herself onto her knees, lifted her arms into the air and prayed, "Jesus you raised Lazarus from the dead, raise my baby from the dead''
"

"Patsy also was unable to sleep even though heavily medicated. She constantly would get up, pace the floor and sob, “Why did they do this, why did they do this.”

I don't understand how this fits into the question.

I think there might be more to tears than just water, so some trace would have been left.

True, IF any got onto her. PR had a full face of makeup when she met the cops at the door. That tells me a lot.

But like a lot of things to do with this case, 'innocent' evidence goes unremarked whilst anything remotely incriminating of the R's is blown out of all proportion.

We haven't even scratched the surface, and you're already making a big deal out of it. Yeah, there's a lot of blowing things out of proportion, but it's not on my side, I can tell you that.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Don't put words in my mouth! I didn't say anything of the kind.

I phrased that as a question.

To rephrase: Did PR produce tears, and if so how does RDI explain that?

 

[DeeDee249]

When did she bring that clothing into her house?

Not sure what you mean , but I will go with what I THINK you mean.

Patsy has admitted owning the jacket from which the fibers found on tape and cord were found to be "consistent with". In one of her interviews she discusses it, and that she bought it at Marshall's. I don't recall if she mentioned when she bought it. So it is assumed she brought it into the home after she bought it, and since she wore it that Christmas, it had to be before that. As far as JR's shirt, he also admits owning the shirt that was "consistent with" fibers found on JB's panties, so I think what you are saying is that the clothing may have been in the house a while. Still doesn't explain to my satisfaction what those fibers were doing in those 3 places.

 

[BBB167893]

I phrased that as a question.

To rephrase: Did PR produce tears, and if so how does RDI explain that?

Personally, I explain it that by the time the cover-up got underway, she had cried herself out.

 

[DeeDee249]

I am sure Patsy cried buckets of tears. But if you mean the alleged lack of tears that day I can compare it to a situation I found myself in long ago.
A cousin of mine, age 23, was shot and killed by an intruder who pushed her into her apartment when she got home from work late that night. She had a roommate who was known to the intruder. He shot both girls in the head, the roommate in the mouth (she survived, though he left her for dead) and my cousin, who was shot in the head from about 3 inches away as she was pushed into a chair. When I got the phone call from a cop I was friends with (he had responded to the call about gunshots being heard), I was the one who went the next day to the morgue to identify the body (not easy with a gunshot to the head) so her parents wouldn't have to do it. In those days (and maybe now, too) once the police remove that yellow crime tape, you are on your own for clean-up. The landlord already had the place rented and wanted it clean ASAP, so there we were (the cousins) with paper towels and windex, cleaning her brains off the walls, floor, etc. Though all of this, I don't remember crying a single tear. It was as if it was a movie I was in, or a dream we were all sleepwalking through. After the funeral, it hit me- I cried for days and days.
I think when there is a horrific event like this, your body goes on automatic pilot and you just walk though it like a dream.

BTW, LE got the perp- who walked on a technicality. Three weeks later he was dead. (Ya gotta love New Jersey- they know how to deal with stuff like this).

 

[MurriFlower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
""Patsy was coming towards the body Of JonBenet, walking with the Assistance of Rev. Hoverstock, and her friends, the Whites and the Fernies. When she entered the hallway where JonBenet lay, she rushed to her and laid down on top of her dead child. Barbara picked up a gray sweatshirt lying on a chair and placed it over the child’s exposed bare feet. Arndt told the family and friends to gather in a circle around JonBenet while Rev. Hoverstock lead them in a prayer. In spite of the numbing shock and grief felt by everyone in the room, they joined Rev. Haberstock in reciting "The Lord's Prayer" as Patsy lay on top of JonBenet crying and moaning. Suddenly, Patsy raised herself onto her knees, lifted her arms into the air and prayed, "Jesus you raised Lazarus from the dead, raise my baby from the dead''
"

"Patsy also was unable to sleep even though heavily medicated. She constantly would get up, pace the floor and sob, “Why did they do this, why did they do this.”
I don't understand how this fits into the question.

OK well the question was did she shed tears. Whilst these quotes don't actually count the number tears shed, 'crying' and 'sobbing' would tend to indicate tears IMO.

Quote:
I think there might be more to tears than just water, so some trace would have been left.
True, IF any got onto her. PR had a full face of makeup when she met the cops at the door. That tells me a lot.

Ok, again 'evidence' pointing towards PR's guilt, explained quite innocently. She got up, put on her make-up before she went downstairs and found the note. It there in the interviews, but if you doubt it, I'll find it for you.

Quote:
But like a lot of things to do with this case, 'innocent' evidence goes unremarked whilst anything remotely incriminating of the R's is blown out of all proportion.
We haven't even scratched the surface, and you're already making a big deal out of it. Yeah, there's a lot of blowing things out of proportion, but it's not on my side, I can tell you that.

Hmm, well I don't suppose you actually participate in all of it, but your 'side' was getting quite a roll on about her supposed UMI yesterday!!
__________________

 

[DeeDee249]

Murriflower, from where did you get that account of PR's encounter with JB's body?

 

[BBB167893]

OK well the question was did she shed tears. Whilst these quotes don't actually count the number tears shed, 'crying' and 'sobbing' would tend to indicate tears IMO.

Right, but that was after everything had gone down.

Ok, again 'evidence' pointing towards PR's guilt, explained quite innocently. She got up, put on her make-up before she went downstairs and found the note. It there in the interviews, but if you doubt it, I'll find it for you.

I doubt its veracity. Supposedly, she put on that makeup only a few moments before she found the note, got hysterical, etc., then greets the cops without an eyelash out of place? It doesn't wash.

Hmm, well I don't suppose you actually participate in all of it, but your 'side' was getting quite a roll on about her supposed UMI yesterday!!

That's not blowing things out of proportion, though. I started that thread purely as a "what if."

 

[MurriFlower]

Murriflower, from where did you get that account of PR's encounter with JB's body?

ACR http://www.acandyrose.com/s-fleet-priscilla-white.htm