IDI: Whats your problem?

[MurriFlower]

Dr. Spitz put the time of death at around 12:30 AM.

While searching for information about rigor mortis and time of death, I came across this:

Rigor Mortis

Rigor mortis occurs because metabolism continues in muscles for a short while after death. As part of the metabolic activity, adenosine triphosphate (ATP) is produced from the metabolism of a sugar compound called glycogen. ATP is a principal energy source for muscular activity. As long as ATP is present, muscles continue to maintain their tone. As the store of glycogen is exhausted, ATP can no longer be made and its concentration decreases.
One of the consequences of ATP depletion is the formation of abnormal links between two components of muscle tissue, actin and myosin. The leakage of calcium into the muscle cells also contributes to the formation of abnormal actin-myosin links. The abnormality produces the stiffening of the muscle, which persists until the links are decomposed.

This reminded me of something I read in regards to the action of stun guns:

How Stun Guns Work
When the electrical energy is 'dumped' into the muscles of the attacker, a number of effects are given. These are mixed, including the following:
· communication between the brain and muscles is momentarily 'scrambled.' Electrical signals from the brain are mixed with the 'noise' of the electrical charge. It's roughly the same effect some electrical signals have on some TV screens. The regular neurological impulses are compromised significantly.
· the stress on muscles converts their regular source of energy, blood sugar, into lactic acid. Without any source of energy, the muscles are instantly disabled.
· muscles are forced to do an enormous amount of work in a very short time. They are exhausted virtually instantaneously.
The net effect of this is essentially harmless. After the electricity leaves the body, muscle and neurological activity return to normal. This is why Tasers release intermittent blasts of electricity to keep the assailant incapacitated. After repeated shocks, the assailant may be exhausted but not permanently harmed.


If a stun gun of some kind was used it appears this may have affected the onset of rigor mortis and confused the time of death.

I've never been completely convinced that there was no stun gun used, even by people who say they have used them on themselves, to test if marks would be left.

My reasons are that: JBR was a small child and would have be more susceptible; you would not hold a stun gun on yourself for any length of time (at least not till you were disabled); stun guns are simple to build so there is no need to match the marks on JBR to any product on the market; home built stun guns could use excessive 'power'; cattle prodders are easily obtainable and one of these could have been used.

 

[madeleine]

Hi Madeline

I'd be interested to hear (sorry if this has already been done) what caused you to turn from RDI to IDI?

I wasn't satisfied with my RDI theories and started over.

 

[MurriFlower]

I wasn't satisfied with my RDI theories and started over.

Which theories in particular were you dissatisfied with?

 

[madeleine]

Which theories in particular were you dissatisfied with?

the bed wetting theory
PDI in general

 

[madeleine]

And
the garrote + sexual assault really bother me.
I can't fit those into any RDI theories,I tried.I can't.It seems that the only RDI explanation is that they didn't know she was still alive when they strangled her and assaulted her as part of the staging.I just CAN'T believe that.I CAN'T.That's why I always thought that maybe it was a game gone wrong (BR or JR) but this doesn't explain lots of other things...why leave the murder weapon there if so...(garrote) and so on.I also considered that maybe it was planned,PR being jealous&needing attention.Doesn't explain lots of other things either.
It's annoying to go back and read that for ex. JR was "cleared" in ST's mind and PR was targeted just because of the bed-wetting rumors.ST kept telling JR well,you can't know,you weren't there,implying that she did it all by herself.Hard to believe.
Maybe their only fault was that they were living in that house.Cause it's so easy to say,well they WERE THERE/it automatically raises a red flag...

And then there's everything else re LE...

 

[MurriFlower]

And
the garrote + sexual assault really bother me.
I can't fit those into any RDI theories,I tried.I can't.It seems that the only RDI explanation is that they didn't know she was still alive when they strangled her and assaulted her as part of the staging.I just CAN'T believe that.I CAN'T.That's why I always thought that maybe it was a game gone wrong (BR or JR) but this doesn't explain lots of other things...why leave the murder weapon there if so...(garrote) and so on.I also considered that maybe it was planned,PR being jealous&needing attention.Doesn't explain lots of other things either.
It's annoying to go back and read that for ex. JR was "cleared" in ST's mind and PR was targeted just because of the bed-wetting rumors.ST kept telling JR well,you can't know,you weren't there,implying that she did it all by herself.Hard to believe.
Maybe their only fault was that they were living in that house.Cause it's so easy to say,well they WERE THERE/it automatically raises a red flag...

And then there's everything else re LE...

Thanks Madeline, I was just curious about what changed your mind. Of course, IDI isn't an easy theory to defend either, with precious little information available about employees/neighbours/friends/family, really anyone else but the R's. I'm trying to be 'flexible' and consider a number of options rather than just grab onto something that seems likely. Unfortunately, even in a normal sized house, there are still home invasions and children stolen from their beds and murdered.

 

[madeleine]

Thanks Madeline, I was just curious about what changed your mind. Of course, IDI isn't an easy theory to defend either, with precious little information available about employees/neighbours/friends/family, really anyone else but the R's. I'm trying to be 'flexible' and consider a number of options rather than just grab onto something that seems likely. Unfortunately, even in a normal sized house, there are still home invasions and children stolen from their beds and murdered.

@bold
I totally agree.And whose to blame that there is so little information.The ones that didn't bother to check further.I am not going to defend IDI cause there are things that bother me re IDI as well(you won't hear me say "the DNA belongs to the killer and period").I am just not going to defend RDI anymore.

There is not enough evidence in this case.You have some fibers and some DNA but both could have an innocent explanation.

Maybe the RN is the key but the experts managed to make a circus out of it and I will never ever trust any of them .Not when it comes to THIS case.

 

[madeleine]

Someone who didn't know anything about this case asked me some time ago....why is it that you suspect the parents?
Well..........their behaviour is suspicious.
And?
And there are some incriminating fibers at the scene.
That's it?
And it seems that the mother wrote the note.
Says who?
Well X,Y and Z.
Who are those people?
Well .................... :waitasec: You are right,WHO are these people...

 

[MurriFlower]

Someone who didn't know anything about this case asked me some time ago....why is it that you suspect the parents?
Well..........their behaviour is suspicious.
And?
And there are some incriminating fibers at the scene.
That's it?
And it seems that the mother wrote the note.
Says who?
Well X,Y and Z.
Who are those people?
Well .................... :waitasec: You are right,WHO are these people...

Yes, there are so many variables that it seems impossible to come up with something that fits. Some are red herrings. I'm trying to list all the different pieces.

The Ransom Note
The Head Bash
The Garrotte
The Tape on her mouth
The Hands tied and Wrapping up in a blanket
The Pineapple
The Fibers
The DNA
The Suitcase under the window
The Footprints in the wine cellar
The sexual assault with stick
The wiping and re-dressing of the body
The leaving of the body at the house
The prior sexual assault
The ????

There are a couple of things that seem to fit together, a bit like when you do a jigsaw on the computer and you hear that satisfying 'click' when a piece drops into place, but there seems to be a lot of pieces missing.

 

[WHITEFANG]

And
the garrote + sexual assault really bother me.
I can't fit those into any RDI theories,I tried.I can't.It seems that the only RDI explanation is that they didn't know she was still alive when they strangled her and assaulted her as part of the staging.I just CAN'T believe that.I CAN'T.That's why I always thought that maybe it was a game gone wrong (BR or JR) but this doesn't explain lots of other things...why leave the murder weapon there if so...(garrote) and so on.I also considered that maybe it was planned,PR being jealous&needing attention.Doesn't explain lots of other things either.
It's annoying to go back and read that for ex. JR was "cleared" in ST's mind and PR was targeted just because of the bed-wetting rumors.ST kept telling JR well,you can't know,you weren't there,implying that she did it all by herself.Hard to believe.
Maybe their only fault was that they were living in that house.Cause it's so easy to say,well they WERE THERE/it automatically raises a red flag...

And then there's everything else re LE...

Madeleine, you go girl. You are hot on the trail of solving this mess.
Somehow, P amd J were deeply devoted, loving parents, loving their children with all their beings, made a terrible mistake by smashing in Joni's skull in a fit of rage, and then suddenly became monsters. Wonderful, sweet, loving parents like they were do not necessarily become deviant predators after losing it for a split second. BTW, there is no proof her skull injury resulted from such an event, anyway. There is no evidence that P created enough torque as such a tiny woman in a confined, small space to cause that much damage. There is no proof that it was P, no proof how it happened, if that's what happened, etc.
But the necessary metamorphosis from loving parent to that of an absolutely fiendish monster, tightening a garrote by hand, leaving proof of the brutality, defies their own arguments.
Thus the exercise of writing down P's thoughts and feelings as she winds the stick around her neck reduces the greatest love known to mankind to disposing of garbage. Yet, trying to put down on paper imagined ideas flowing through her head was difficult or impossible to do in realistic terms.

 

[madeleine]

Yes, there are so many variables that it seems impossible to come up with something that fits. Some are red herrings. I'm trying to list all the different pieces.

The Ransom Note
The Head Bash
The Garrotte
The Tape on her mouth
The Hands tied and Wrapping up in a blanket
The Pineapple
The Fibers
The DNA
The Suitcase under the window
The Footprints in the wine cellar
The sexual assault with stick
The wiping and re-dressing of the body
The leaving of the body at the house
The prior sexual assault
The ????

There are a couple of things that seem to fit together, a bit like when you do a jigsaw on the computer and you hear that satisfying 'click' when a piece drops into place, but there seems to be a lot of pieces missing.

I think "the boot print belongs to BR" is another myth.So what if he owned a pair.First of all,the print found in the basement was from a shoe owned by an adult.B was 9 years old.

 

[madeleine]

Madeleine, you go girl. You are hot on the trail of solving this mess.
Somehow, P amd J were deeply devoted, loving parents, loving their children with all their beings, made a terrible mistake by smashing in Joni's skull in a fit of rage, and then suddenly became monsters. Wonderful, sweet, loving parents like they were do not necessarily become deviant predators after losing it for a split second. BTW, there is no proof her skull injury resulted from such an event, anyway. There is no evidence that P created enough torque as such a tiny woman in a confined, small space to cause that much damage. There is no proof that it was P, no proof how it happened, if that's what happened, etc.
But the necessary metamorphosis from loving parent to that of an absolutely fiendish monster, tightening a garrote by hand, leaving proof of the brutality, defies their own arguments.
Thus the exercise of writing down P's thoughts and feelings as she winds the stick around her neck reduces the greatest love known to mankind to disposing of garbage. Yet, trying to put down on paper imagined ideas flowing through her head was difficult or impossible to do in realistic terms.

Let's take a look at our own life experiences.
Maybe you'll laugh or roll your eyes now,but yesterday I ran over a pigeon.I was a mess all day long,still am.Don't tell me that parents who killed their child (ACCIDENT,not planned) can survive the guilt and mock everybody on national TV.If it was an accident they would have been devastated,ESPECIALLY after finding out that she was still alive when they finished her off with the garrote.
Okay,maybe they covered up for BR,I could understand why they would wanna protect him,still,put a cord around her neck and pull and then sexually assault her?Nope.
IMO they would have found other ways to divert attention.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Thanks Madeline, I was just curious about what changed your mind. Of course, IDI isn't an easy theory to defend either, with precious little information available about employees/neighbours/friends/family, really anyone else but the R's. I'm trying to be 'flexible' and consider a number of options rather than just grab onto something that seems likely. Unfortunately, even in a normal sized house, there are still home invasions and children stolen from their beds and murdered.

OK so we can't peer into AG, LM, neighbors, friends, employees. What CAN we do?

 

[WHITEFANG]

What else does DNA tell us, besides a person's gender? This DNA revealed it came from a male. Can it tell us anything else about him? Race, approximate age, physical characteristics, ancestral connections, vulnerabilities to disease or disorders, genetics?

Can the cops demand that all males who lived, attended school, worked or came into that vicinity (within a given radius) of the Ramsey home in Boulder at that time be required to give a DNA sample?

Is there a reward available? Can it be increased and promoted again? Has this crime been featured on AMW where they ask for viewers with any information to call, anonymity guaranteed?

Can a new team of investigators be assigned to review all the data? They could start from the beginning and be given subpoena power. Since the formal apology, does Colorado have any responsibility, legally, to reinvestigate the case? In light of the admission that the Ramseys were unfairly targeted as the suspects, causing untold suffering, doesn't the state owe some kind of restitution to them?

 

[madeleine]

Can a new team of investigators be assigned to review all the data? They could start from the beginning and be given subpoena power. Since the formal apology, does Colorado have any responsibility, legally, to reinvestigate the case?

Excellent points but don't forget who chief of police is,same old Beckner.And even if he said they rely on the new DNA evidence and linguistics,do you really think he changed?He first must admit what went wrong back then,I don't see him doing that,he's got too much to lose,why would he open up the can of worms,think he cares about JB or her family....

 

[WHITEFANG]

OK so we can't peer into AG, LM, neighbors, friends, employees. What CAN we do?

Some believe that her murder was not premeditated. Isn't that nice?

Nevertheless, according to this theory, she had to make a conscious decision to fake the cause of her death. To accomplish this task, right after she killed her daughter, took much effort, thought and careful planing.

Remember, first she had to get past the shock and horror of this unbelievable tragedy. Then, she had to conceive a plan out of nothing, with no experience, to disguise the real cause of death convincingly.

Her eyes, her little cheeks, her beautiful head of hair, tiny JB, motionless and quiet. No more smiles, never again the sleepy sounds, "mommy, daddy." Just stillness and silence. There but gone, gone for good, in a split-second flash moment and it was all over.

And now, to simulate a death from a different wound. I've seen the word "flair" used to incorporate the special styling Patsy would apply to the staging.

To me this was worse than a simple murder. Rather than doing everything she could to resuscitate her, she concocted a scheme to disguise what just happened. To pass muster with cops, she strangled her.

No Premeditation?

 

[my_tee_mouse]

The subject of whether or not PR ever came in direct contact with the body was recently discussed. I happened upon the Walters R interview. Note what PR says:

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/03172000ramseyonbarbarawalters.htm

PATSY RAMSEY I remember walking in and seeing her lying there in front of the Christmas tree. And I looked at John and he said, 'She's dead.'(PAUSE) And it's...nothing felt real. I felt like it was um&my life was in slow motion and this was not really happening. I knelt down over her and just laid my body on her body and my cheek against her cheek and it was cold. And I just kept saying, 'No no.' You know, ask God… ask God to… raise her. (CRYING)

Interesting.

 

[WHITEFANG]

JOHN RAMSEY Well, that's absurd. This was done by a terrible person. The garrote...was deeply embedded in JonBenet's throat. Her hands were tightly bound, I couldn't get the knot untied, I tried to get it untied, even before I brought her upstairs, The fundamental issue is no logic has been applied to any of this case. Why would I for example have staged this horrible scene, and then disturbed it myself, pulled the tape off her mouth, carried her upstairs, tried to untie the hands before I brought her upstairs. If I'd have staged it, I would've wanted the police to see it as I staged it. It's not logical. Makes no sense.

 

[BBB167893]

Lets suppose the RN author named the foreign faction, and its a known entity. What happens then?

What do you think happens?

 

[BBB167893]

Well HOTYH - I've always thought of the idea of the 'small foreign faction' as, well, small - i.e., underground, etc. or, well, a small group of people - I would have a freakin' name! Most of those groups do, and whether it's smart or not to 'crow' about it, they do - 'cause they are full of themselves, want attention, etc. I mean, wouldn't part of the point be that they are known - like a name for their 'group' that doesn't trace to them or identify them per se - but, allows for others to know what they stand for?

Precisely. Historically, these organizations have always attributed their name to their actions. They WANT you to know who did it because that's how they spread fear.