IDIs On This Forum?

[Ames]

You are just good AMES.

LOL...thank you.

Does anyone know where John's study was located? I have seen a bluerprint of their house, but I can't remember.

 

[Solace]

I was searching through JR's interview..and trying to find the part about the robe...he is shown a picture of a robe too, and I found this.

7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)
8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her
9 hands tied closely together or were they wide
10 apart?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.
12 MIKE KANE: There were crossed like that.
13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands
14 were close together.

The ME said that her wrists were tied apart...with something like 15 inches of cord between them. And if you look at the pictures of the cord, you can see the loops were her wrists were, and just how much cord there is between each loop.

Does anyone have any thoughts on why John would insist the hands were tied close together when they were obviously free of eachother with a lot of room in between.

 

[Ames]

The bathrobe was found on the floor of John's Study...which was located on the first floor of the home, near the garage....far, far away from John's bathroom, in which he was getting ready. So, how is it possible, as Patsy says...that John could have been putting it on, when he came out of the shower...and dropped it when he heard her scream, and went runnng down the stairs? The robe was found on the 1st floor, the bathroom where he was taking his shower is on the third. Unless, of course, it had magical powers..and got up on its on and landed on the floor of his first floor study. IMO...the bathrobe was the item used to wipe her down with.


http://crimeshots.com/RamseyFloor.html

 

[Ames]

"EXTERNAL EXAM: The decedent is clothed in a long sleeved white knit
collarless shirt, the mid anterior chest area of which contains an
embroidered silver star decorated with silver sequins. Tied loosely
around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white
cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in
length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5
inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord
is also frayed. There are no defects noted in the shirt but the upper
anterior right sleeve contains a dried brown-tan stain measuring
2.5x1.5 inches, consistent with mucous from the nose or mouth. There
are long white underwear with an elastic waist band containing a red
and blue stripe. The long underwear are urine stained anteriorly over
the crotch area and anterior legs. No defects are identified. Beneath
the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the
words "Wednesday" on the elastic waist band. The underwear is urine
stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas
of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch maximum dimension."


http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote5.jpg

This is a picture of the wrist ligature....(even though its labeled garrote)....(note the double loop at one end...just as the autopsy report says)....

And this would be the picture of the garrote that was around her neck....notice the hair caught in it....

http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote4.jpg


Looking at the picture of the wrist ligature, I have no clue how John could say that her wrists were crossed, when he found her...there is way too much cord between the loops.

 

[Toltec]

JonBenet's body was in full rigor....so my question is, wouldn't her hands be together if they were tied that close?

We do not have pictures of her full body post-mortem so can anyone explain to me if it is at all possible that her hands remain close together in full rigor?

 

[coloradokares]

And JR's BLUE bathrobe was found on the floor, Patsy says that he was probably about to put it on when she screamed for him, and he dropped it....problem with THAT is...it was found in the wrong part of the house...not the bedroom or bathroom...where John would have accidently dropped it, if that had of been the case.

Also the den referred to was on the main level not upstairs if I am following this line of thought correctly

 

[Ames]

Also the den referred to was on the main level not upstairs if I am following this line of thought correctly

Yep...you are right on track...

 

[coloradokares]

LOL...thank you.

Does anyone know where John's study was located? I have seen a bluerprint of their house, but I can't remember.

I am chiming in late but main floor if my memory serves me right

 

[Ames]

JonBenet's body was in full rigor....so my question is, wouldn't her hands be together if they were tied that close?

We do not have pictures of her full body post-mortem so can anyone explain to me if it is at all possible that her hands remain close together in full rigor?

I found these definitions....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

"Rigor mortis is one of the recognizable signs of death (Latin mors, mortis) that is caused by a chemical change in the muscles after death, causing the limbs of the corpse to become stiff (Latin rigor) and difficult to move or manipulate."


http://chemistry.about.com/cs/biochemistry/a/aa061903a.htm


What Causes Rigor Mortis?

From Anne Marie Helmenstine, Ph.D.,
Your Guide to Chemistry.
FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now!
Chemistry of Muscle Fibers

A few hours after a person or animal dies, the joints of the body stiffen and become locked in place. This stiffening is called rigor mortis. Depending on temperature and other conditions, rigor mortis lasts approximately 72 hours. The phenomenon is caused by the skeletal muscles partially contracting. The muscles are unable to relax, so the joints become fixed in place.


So, IMO....the answer to your question would be YES....


http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenethandright.jpg

Check out this picture of ONE of JB's wrists....if her hands had of been tied together, crossed in front of one another, as John says in his interview...or even touching....then they would have "frozen" in place this way, due to rigor mortis. Where is her other hand and wrist, in the picture??

 

[Ames]

I am chiming in late but main floor if my memory serves me right

You are right, CK...I found the house plans...and the John's Study was right beside the garage, on the first floor. Far away from the bathroom that he was getting ready in....on the THIRD floor. So, he couldn't have thrown it down on the floor, when he heard Patsy scream, as Patsy stated in her interview. He wasn't even no where NEAR his bathrobe....

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

But in your equation, you left out the immense risk kidnappers would take in such a situation:
- The risk of getting caught while writing the ransom note in the victim's home.
- The risk of not finding the other items needed fast enough.
- The risk of getting caught while molesting and garroting the victim (the molesting and a garroting scenario contradicts a kidnapping anyway).

And if the intruder was so concerned about reducing his chances of being linked to the crime, then surely he would have taken his ransom note with him - after all, he would have left "his" handwriting behind there ...

Jmpo, but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to come to the conclusion that neither a Small Foreign Faction nor a sexual predator was responsible for JonBenet's death.

"- The risk of not finding the other items needed fast enough. "

Thats why the perp brought the cord and tape with him. He likely would not risk not finding these items. Thats why investigators couldnt find any trace of these items anywhere else in the house.

There's too much unsourced speculation going on on artwork transportation, receipts with 'the exact same amount from the exact same department'.

Face it, JR and PR aren't going to lie about not buying the cord and tape, because they could simply say the perp used what they had bought, originally intending to use it to mark a beauty pageant floor (thats rich! who made that one up?). Truth is, neither JR or PR bought the cord or the tape. The perp did.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Two types of fibers were found in JonBenet's genital area:

1) Navy-blue cotton fibers consistent with a washcloth, towel or bathrobe werefound in her vaginal area.
In all probabilty, JB was wiped with an item consisting of these fibers.

2) Black wool fibers consistent with the shirt John Ramsey had been wearing to the Whites' party were found in the crotch area of her underwear.

(Source: Bonita Papers and interview (2000) with John Ramsey).

I know JR isn't a fiber expert, but where is the fiber expert in the Bonita Papers. I'm sure the 'consistent with a washcloth' or 'the shirt JR was wearing' was determined by a fiber expert, right?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdon,

What mystifies me is the fact that most IDI theorists have not completely read up on the Ramsey case;otherwise, post such as Dee's regarding the tape and cord would have been answered already for you. I too have read this. It is in both books on the case. Also, the fact that you quote Austin and Grey re the dna leads me to believe you are not fully informed on all the facts. I am not making it up. The scientists comes out and says it is not a definite.

This is not to say you are wrong in your opinion. I believe you are, but there is that very slim scintilla of a chance you are right. But at the very least why are you arguing with things that are proven. I just don't understand that. It does not make your case any more convincing.

Uh, IMO the tape and cord were bought by the perp and brought with him in a botched kidnapping turned murder.
The DNA isn't a definite, but it could be forensic evidence someday. Most RDI are claiming that 'no forensic evidence exists' because the DNA just doesn't fit the RDI scenario, does it.

. But at the very least why are you arguing with things that are proven. I just don't understand that. It does not make your case any more convincing.

I would like to know what it is you consider to be 'proven'? That PR bought cord or tape? That fibers came from JR's shirt?

 

[Ames]

I know JR isn't a fiber expert, but where is the fiber expert in the Bonita Papers. I'm sure the 'consistent with a washcloth' or 'the shirt JR was wearing' was determined by a fiber expert, right?

Hi..HOTYH....
I know that none of these posts were directed at me...and I have posted this before, but maybe this might answer you question.

From John Ramsey's 2000 interview....

21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is
22 our belief based on forensic evidence that
23 there are hairs that are associated, that the
24 source is the collared black shirt that you
25 sent us that are found in your daughter's
0058
1 underpants, and I wondered if you --
2 A. . I don't believe that.
3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to
4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
6 disgrace --
7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I
8 think you are. That's disgusting.


<SNIPPED for length)


6 MR. LEVIN: Let's move on to
7 another topic.
8 THE WITNESS: If the question is
9 how did fibers of your shirt get into your
10 daughter's underwear, I say that is not
11 possible. I don't believe it. That is
12 ridiculous.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Ames, I don't think this interview qualifies as a source for an expert opinion that the unidentified dark fibers found on JBR by the coroner were from JR's shirt.

I was thinking that certainly a more professional comparison was done of fibers from these two sources, but I have yet to find it or have anyone post a link to it.

 

[BOESP]

Ames, I don't think this interview qualifies as a source for an expert opinion that the unidentified dark fibers found on JBR by the coroner were from JR's shirt.

I was thinking that certainly a more professional comparison was done of fibers from these two sources, but I have yet to find it or have anyone post a link to it.

"Forensic evidence" would be defined as evidence of such quality as to be admissible in a court of law. The depo implies Mr. Levin has access to that type knowledge. I seriously doubt it could be classed as forensic evidence if it was not based on expert opinion. I suppose the real question is if the public received an accurate typescript of the transcript as stated above.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

"Forensic evidence" would be defined as evidence of such quality as to be admissible in a court of law. The depo implies Mr. Levin has access to that type knowledge. I seriously doubt it could be classed as forensic evidence if it was not based on expert opinion. I suppose the real question is if the public received an accurate typescript of the transcript as stated above.

The depo doesn't 'imply Mr. Levin has access to that type of knowledge'.

The depo makes it very clear Mr. Levin claimed to have a report on fiber evidence that he had refused to share. What you had in 2000 and appear to be relying on today is just somebody's word there is a match.

What you don't have is an impartial scientific comparison. Somebody's word isn't a valid source for a scientific match from one item to another.

 

[BOESP]

The depo doesn't 'imply Mr. Levin has access to that type of knowledge'.

The depo makes it very clear Mr. Levin claimed to have a report on fiber evidence that he had refused to share. What you had in 2000 and appear to be relying on today is just somebody's word there is a match.

What you don't have is an impartial scientific comparison. Somebody's word isn't a valid source for a scientific match from one item to another.

Why bother posting here then since all this chit-chat is just that ... somebody's word .... it means nothing concerning anything about JonBenet's death as far as being forensically reliable. For the purposes of discussing the case on this board, I will assume Mr. Levin is truthful until shown otherwise.

 

[Ames]

Ames, I don't think this interview qualifies as a source for an expert opinion that the unidentified dark fibers found on JBR by the coroner were from JR's shirt.

I was thinking that certainly a more professional comparison was done of fibers from these two sources, but I have yet to find it or have anyone post a link to it.

Oh well...I don't know about that. All I know is that the words.."forensic evidence" is used in the interview. Which...I understand to mean...a Forensic expert ran some tests, and they matched the fibers in the underwear. IMO

 

[Ames]

"Forensic evidence" would be defined as evidence of such quality as to be admissible in a court of law. The depo implies Mr. Levin has access to that type knowledge. I seriously doubt it could be classed as forensic evidence if it was not based on expert opinion. I suppose the real question is if the public received an accurate typescript of the transcript as stated above.

Sorry, I just now read your post..I basically just posted the same thing that you did.