IDIs On This Forum?

[JMO8778]

Who said "you're going to be finding her body' and to whom was it said? Source,, please?

look back to SD's post : I'm afraid you're wrong there, sir. There was an FBI agent there at the scene THAT MORNING who looked the note over and said it was a fake. His name is Ronald Walker.

'you're going to be finding her body',was said to Boulder LE.
He was on courttv too,and he repeated what he'd said that morning,upon reading the note: ....'you're going to be finding her body'.

Anyway, they could've still concluded RDI and declared the RN fake before JBR was found. Its still carriage before horse.

seems he knew a fake RN when he saw one..horse did come b/f carriage,horse was right all along.

 

[UKGuy]

The FBI didn't first recognize the RN as a fake, and then suspect the R's, as you imply. They said the same day 'look at the family', right?

It seems RDI was decided on the first day. Then, the RN was considered fake, and the crime scene declared staged, right? But isn't this putting the carriage before the horse?


-------------------------------------

I'm sorry, but I wasn't able to find any Dr. McCann autopsy report. Is there a source that shows this physician even attended JBR at any point? Or is this another expert called in after the fact to look at second hand information?

Holdontoyourhat,

As usual you are promoting fallacies, snakeoil is always the best cure for the truth.

The FBI didn't first recognize the RN as a fake,

They took a look at the crime-scene instead.

Debating the finer points of the ransom note will move nobody forward, it will not tell you who killed JonBenet, but you might be able to decide who wrote it?

The ransom note is staging, plain and simple, why because, nobody was kidnapped, JonBenet was killed and a crime-scene created to cover up what really occurred!

Ramsey warrant dated January 30, 1997

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

...

Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's pubic area having been wiped by a cloth.

That is the pathologist conducting the autopsy, he was present, held the view that moments prior to her death JonBenet had been subjected to sexual contact, digital penetration of her vagina., and that the pubic area having been wiped by a cloth removed the evidence.

So not finding any semen does not mean it was never there, or that a sexual assault never took place!

If you apply the kiss principle, then interpreting the crime-scene is not rocket science. Someone was molesting JonBenet, killed her, then cleaned her body up, and fabricated a crime-scene, including a ransom note, to hide the details of what can only represent a case of incest?

As I stated before there is not one item of evidence that has been linked to any external intruder.

Conversely there are a mountain of links connecting the Ramseys with the staged wine-cellar crime-scene, Columbo would have a field day!


.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Things that would've helped RDI:

1. A physician attending JBR, either living or at autopsy, that voiced the opinion JBR was abused prior to the night she died. Not an armchair expert hired by a tabloid that used second hand info.
2. Injuries to PR or JR consistent with a struggle.
3. Rope or tape rolls, or any other use of these items actually found in the house. It seems they came and went with the murder, doesn't it?
4. Some prior domestic violence, some violent movies in the house collection, consistent with the violence depicted in the RN and/or on JBR herself. It seems the level of violence came and went with the murder.
5. A consensus of handwriting experts that decided PR and RN author's handwriting are one and the same. There was never any consensus. The reason there was no consensus is because there's too many differences.
6. Forensic evidence of a very incriminating nature found on JBR, linking an R to the murder. A smoking gun.
7. Having not found foreign male DNA mixed with JBR's blood would've helped RDI.

 

[Ames]

Holdontoyourhat,

As usual you are promoting fallacies, snakeoil is always the best cure for the truth.


They took a look at the crime-scene instead.

Debating the finer points of the ransom note will move nobody forward, it will not tell you who killed JonBenet, but you might be able to decide who wrote it?

The ransom note is staging, plain and simple, why because, nobody was kidnapped, JonBenet was killed and a crime-scene created to cover up what really occurred!

Ramsey warrant dated January 30, 1997

That is the pathologist conducting the autopsy, he was present, held the view that moments prior to her death JonBenet had been subjected to sexual contact, digital penetration of her vagina., and that the pubic area having been wiped by a cloth removed the evidence.

So not finding any semen does not mean it was never there, or that a sexual assault never took place!

If you apply the kiss principle, then interpreting the crime-scene is not rocket science. Someone was molesting JonBenet, killed her, then cleaned her body up, and fabricated a crime-scene, including a ransom note, to hide the details of what can only represent a case of incest?

As I stated before there is not one item of evidence that has been linked to any external intruder.

Conversely there are a mountain of links connecting the Ramseys with the staged wine-cellar crime-scene, Columbo would have a field day!


.

UKGuy...
Do you think that it is possible that John was molesting JB, without Patsy's knowledge? Maybe the paintbrush insertion was HIS idea, because he wanted to disquise the fact that she had been molested. Maybe the molestation by the "intruder" was all HIS idea...and Patsy...just went along with it, not knowing the real reason behind it.

 

[Ames]

Things that would've helped RDI:

1. A physician attending JBR, either living or at autopsy, that voiced the opinion JBR was abused prior to the night she died. Not an armchair expert hired by a tabloid that used second hand info.

It was an expert that stated this....that is why it was brought up during the interviews with the Ramsey's. I don't believe that they would have brought it up, if it had of been a "expert" hired by a tabloid. I would hardly call someone hired by a tabloid, an expert.

2 Injuries to PR or JR consistent with a struggle.

Its hard to struggle with someone when you are unconscious.

3.Rope or tape rolls, or any other use of these items actually found in the house. It seems they came and went with the murder, doesn't it?

It seems that they came and went inside of John's golf bag. If an intruder did it, why wouldn't he have left these things behind?? Why bother crawling out the window, trying to carry all that stuff? Why not just leave it all behind??


4. Some prior domestic violence, some violent movies in the house collection, consistent with the violence depicted in the RN and/or on JBR herself. It seems the level of violence came and went with the murder.


There was no history or violence with Susan Smith and her children. In fact, I know someone that knows her....I hate to admit. She just snapped...(as I believe that Patsy did)...and put her kids in a car and let it roll into the lake. There doesn't have to be a history of violence, in order for someone to just SNAP..and do the unthinkable. And...there is ALWAYS a first time.

5.A consensus of handwriting experts that decided PR and RN author's handwriting are one and the same. There was never any consensus. The reason there was no consensus is because there's too many differences.

I believe that ten expert opinions is pretty much a consensus, but that's just me.


6. Forensic evidence of a very incriminating nature found on JBR, linking an R to the murder. A smoking gun.

Like what....Patsy's clothes fibers found entwined in the garotte? In the paint tray? On the tape that was covering her mouth? Or do you mean...like...John's shirt fibers being found on her crotch area?? That pretty much sounds like a smoking gun to me...along with all of the other evidence.

7.Having not found foreign male DNA mixed with JBR's blood would've helped RDI.

It was found on the panties....and it was degraded, MEANING...that it had been there for awhile. If it was a new pair of panties, the only way for it to have gotten there, was when they were being made in the factory. It was OLD....DEGRADED. An intruder that came in THAT night, would not deposit OLD DNA.

My responses are written in red....

 

[Rino]

Things that would've helped RDI:

1. A physician attending JBR, either living or at autopsy, that voiced the opinion JBR was abused prior to the night she died. Not an armchair expert hired by a tabloid that used second hand info.
2. Injuries to PR or JR consistent with a struggle.
3. Rope or tape rolls, or any other use of these items actually found in the house. It seems they came and went with the murder, doesn't it?
4. Some prior domestic violence, some violent movies in the house collection, consistent with the violence depicted in the RN and/or on JBR herself. It seems the level of violence came and went with the murder.
5. A consensus of handwriting experts that decided PR and RN author's handwriting are one and the same. There was never any consensus. The reason there was no consensus is because there's too many differences.
6. Forensic evidence of a very incriminating nature found on JBR, linking an R to the murder. A smoking gun.
7. Having not found foreign male DNA mixed with JBR's blood would've helped RDI.

1. Why?
2. There was no struggle, that is why Jonbennet had no self defense wounds while she was slowly strangled. Why should an adult in control of the situation show more signs of a struggle than the victim?
3. Yep, they went out with many other items either with the sister in law or John himself when he went "missing" for a short period of time, or any other time...
4. Thats a red-herring. Any other reported abuse would be nice, but they were obviously careful
5. Patsey could not be excluded, thats pretty all there is to it but "A" for effort for keeping that myth alive
6. John tampered with the scene, the body and the crime as soon as humanly possible while still posing as the greifing father.
7. Same response as 5, but only a "C-" this time. That is now just a made up fact you choose to hold on to.

 

[coloradokares]

The FBI didn't first recognize the RN as a fake, and then suspect the R's, as you imply. They said the same day 'look at the family', right?

It seems RDI was decided on the first day. Then, the RN was considered fake, and the crime scene declared staged, right? But isn't this putting the carriage before the horse?


-------------------------------------

I'm sorry, but I wasn't able to find any Dr. McCann autopsy report. Is there a source that shows this physician even attended JBR at any point? Or is this another expert called in after the fact to look at second hand information?

Or hitcing the right horse up to the ?right carriage to use your anology

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy...
Do you think that it is possible that John was molesting JB, without Patsy's knowledge? Maybe the paintbrush insertion was HIS idea, because he wanted to disquise the fact that she had been molested. Maybe the molestation by the "intruder" was all HIS idea...and Patsy...just went along with it, not knowing the real reason behind it.

Ames,

Its possible but unlikely, remember how she publicly defended him against allegations of molesting JonBenet because Nedra was sleeping in the same room?

Maybe the paintbrush was never inserted, maybe the forensic evidence is from Patsy's fingers after she constructed the garrote?

From memory the birefringent foreign material itemised in the autopsy was found on JonBenet's eroded hymen not inside her vagina, but I may be corrected on this?

If you give it some thought, Patsy may have actually inserted the paintbrush prior to JonBenet's death?

It is more likely that John vetoed any sexual predator staging since he would be first on the suspect list.

This might explain why JonBenet may have had the paintbrush, or Patsy's finger inserted, then it was all cleaned up and hidden beneath her clothing and blankets?

My preferred explanation is that JonBenet bled from an initial sexual assault which escalated into her death, subsequent staging and cleanup then makes sense. Patsy's contribution may have been to attempt to mask all of this by inserting the paintbrush?

The problem for most RDI theories is that they assume John alone did it, or Patsy alone did it, this then generates contradictions and inconsistencies, because both John and Patsy left forensic evidence on JonBenet, so the simplest explanation must be that they were both knowingly involved, particularly Patsy.


.

 

[Ames]

Ames,

Its possible but unlikely, remember how she publicly defended him against allegations of molesting JonBenet because Nedra was sleeping in the same room?

Maybe the paintbrush was never inserted, maybe the forensic evidence is from Patsy's fingers after she constructed the garrote?

From memory the birefringent foreign material itemised in the autopsy was found on JonBenet's eroded hymen not inside her vagina, but I may be corrected on this?

If you give it some thought, Patsy may have actually inserted the paintbrush prior to JonBenet's death?

It is more likely that John vetoed any sexual predator staging since he would be first on the suspect list.

This might explain why JonBenet may have had the paintbrush, or Patsy's finger inserted, then it was all cleaned up and hidden beneath her clothing and blankets?

My preferred explanation is that JonBenet bled from an initial sexual assault which escalated into her death, subsequent staging and cleanup then makes sense. Patsy's contribution may have been to attempt to mask all of this by inserting the paintbrush?

The problem for most RDI theories is that they assume John alone did it, or Patsy alone did it, this then generates contradictions and inconsistencies, because both John and Patsy left forensic evidence on JonBenet, so the simplest explanation must be that they were both knowingly involved, particularly Patsy.


.

From Patsy's 98 Interview...

25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are
0581
1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal
2 intrusion on JonBenet?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
4 Prior to the night she was killed?
5 TOM HANEY: Correct.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.
9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.
11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.
13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.
15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have
16 been violated like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This
18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.


I think that you are right. This part of the interview, along with Patsy's comment about Nedra sleeping in JB's room, and Nedra's comment about JB being "just a little bit" molested, sounds suspicious to me.

 

[BOESP]

I know that Steve Thomas thinks that John is innocent in all of this, but I don't believe that at all. I don't think that there would have been any way in the world for Patsy, to have pulled this off alone. I think that their original plan, when they left JB alone under the Christmas tree...was to leave that house, and to NEVER, EVER come back. John had lots of money, their material things could have been replaced. I think that they were just going to leave it all behind....including their baby girl. I believe that the minute that Patsy and John finished killing her off...they distanced themsleves from her, as though she never existed at all. I think that was their way of coping with what they had done.

Hi Ames,

I sit on the fence about John. His shirt fibers are said to have been found on JonBenet so question is would Patsy have planted the fibers or were the fibers on Patsy's clothing and transferred to JonBenet accidentally, or was John involved?

At times I wonder if he may have done it and Patsy had no knowledge. Her fibers could have been on him as well and transferred that way.

Wish we had access to all the evidence. I am a RDIFS because I can't quite decide who did what. I like Steve Thomas's scenario because he had access to all the evidence and because the Ramsey vs Thomas suit was settled out of court without requiring Thomas to do anything except not discuss the terms of the settlement.

 

[JMO8778]

UKGuy...
Do you think that it is possible that John was molesting JB, without Patsy's knowledge? Maybe the paintbrush insertion was HIS idea, because he wanted to disquise the fact that she had been molested. Maybe the molestation by the "intruder" was all HIS idea...and Patsy...just went along with it, not knowing the real reason behind it.

I've wondered that,too.JR seems to have done an awful lot of hiding behind Patsy..she being the theatrical person of the house,maybe this is why?She made the hysterical (fake hyperventilating),theatrical 911 call,she wrote the RN,yet the content..(setting up former AG employees)...seems to have come from JR.And then JR takes a shower,Patsy does not and even stays in the same clothes..did he set her up,perhaps?He was the crime reader of the family..JAT.She seemed to be acting,not feeling, on tv as well.

Only thing I would add is the ligature staging seemed to be staged in a sexual way...bondage/control of sorts.I think it's much more likely JR did that.And then,for some reason (he meant to restage her ,perhaps?),he was afraid of that being shown to be the case upon finding the body,so he lied and said her arms were tied tightly,as if being kidnapped instead.

**I didn't put that ! sign in the corner up there on purpose.I must have hit it by mistake.sry..

 

[Ames]

Hi Ames,

I sit on the fence about John. His shirt fibers are said to have been found on JonBenet so question is would Patsy have planted the fibers or were the fibers on Patsy's clothing and transferred to JonBenet accidentally, or was John involved?

At times I wonder if he may have done it and Patsy had no knowledge. Her fibers could have been on him as well and transferred that way.

Wish we had access to all the evidence. I am a RDIFS because I can't quite decide who did what. I like Steve Thomas's scenario because he had access to all the evidence and because the Ramsey vs Thomas suit was settled out of court without requiring Thomas to do anything except not discuss the terms of the settlement.

There are too many inconsistancies...and weird answers in Patsy's interview, for John to have done it without her knowledge. IMO

I was on the fence about the molestation....but, after re-reading Patsy's portion of her interview about it, and remembering what she said about John not being able to molest JB, because Nedra slept in JB's room, and would have protected her, and the fact that Nedra says that JB was a little bit molested....it makes me wonder if I should crawl down from the fence, and slide on over to the John molested JB side. I still don't believe that is why she was killed though....I still believe it was a bed-wetting incident, that turned into rage by Patsy. They might not have wanted to take her to the ER, because they were afraid of what she might say, if and when she came out of unconsiousness.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

My responses are written in red....

Your responses can't be responded to using your format, same as SD.

The reason the perp chose to take the cord and tape rolls with him is because they can be sourced. If they can be sourced, then the seller may remember what the perp looked like.

The perp probably did not want to risk not finding these items in the house, so he brought them in.

This is a valid explanation as to why the perp would take the cord and tape rolls with him, and not leave them there. The fact that both the tape and cord rolls were never found should be a sign that JBR was killed by an intruder.

 

[Ames]

Your responses can't be responded to using your format, same as SD.

The reason the perp chose to take the cord and tape rolls with him is because they can be sourced. If they can be sourced, then the seller may remember what the perp looked like.

The perp probably did not want to risk not finding these items in the house, so he brought them in.

This is a valid explanation as to why the perp would take the cord and tape rolls with him, and not leave them there. The fact that both the tape and cord rolls were never found should be a sign that JBR was killed by an intruder.

Nah, it just means that the Ramsey's somehow got them out of the house. Probably when PP went in for the few funeral clothes, and came out with John's golf clubs and bag....among many other items.

 

[DeeDee249]

PR also wore a big fur coat out that night. They ALL wore coats, and I can't believe that they left to stay at the Fernie's without packing a bag....

The tape and cord were sourced to the local hardware store. Bought recently. The tape was sourced to a specific manufacturer and they were even able to determine when it was made (not that long before the murder).

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The tape and cord were sourced to the local hardware store.

I'm not so sure about that. I know PR had a receipt that had $2.29 on it so everybody figures that is cord or tape. I know the local hardware store sold the same type of cord or tape, but I don't think the tape and cord were definitively sourced to the local hardware store. They could've come from another store. I believe investigators were checking out an army surplus store also.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, that is true. But usually, things are what they seem. The hardware store sold tape and cord, at the exact prices shown on the R receipt and from the exact departments. The Army surplus may have sold those items, but possibly the price would have been different (I don't think I've ever seen anything about this). And the fact is that the Rs DID have a receipt from the hardware store showing that items matching that price and department were bought.

If it walks like a duck...

 

[coloradokares]

I'm not so sure about that. I know PR had a receipt that had $2.29 on it so everybody figures that is cord or tape. I know the local hardware store sold the same type of cord or tape, but I don't think the tape and cord were definitively sourced to the local hardware store. They could've come from another store. I believe investigators were checking out an army surplus store also.

They were sourced but the way the register was then was a real sweet deal for PR, they were not itemized at that time and I Shop McGuckins and I KNOW that as a fact. Even went

 

[UKGuy]

Your responses can't be responded to using your format, same as SD.

The reason the perp chose to take the cord and tape rolls with him is because they can be sourced. If they can be sourced, then the seller may remember what the perp looked like.

The perp probably did not want to risk not finding these items in the house, so he brought them in.

This is a valid explanation as to why the perp would take the cord and tape rolls with him, and not leave them there. The fact that both the tape and cord rolls were never found should be a sign that JBR was killed by an intruder.

Holdontoyourhat,

The reason the perp chose to take the cord and tape rolls with him is because they can be sourced. If they can be sourced, then the seller may remember what the perp looked like.

This you making it up as you go along? Why, because the virtual perp' left cord around JonBenet's neck and wrists, and tape on her mouth, did he forget to take these items with him too?

This is a valid explanation as to why the perp would take the cord and tape rolls with him, and not leave them there. The fact that both the tape and cord rolls were never found should be a sign that JBR was killed by an intruder.

Sounds almost biblical, e.g. the perp' left a sign, and of course as usual your explanation is not valid, because 1. the perp left both cord and tape evidence behind, and 2. there is the alternative explanation that the perp' may have sourced the cord and the tape in the house, why because he was a nasty perp' and decided, at the last minute, against kidnapping JonBenet in favor of molesting her.

Unfortunately for the IDI theorists, there is no forensic evidence that links to an external intruder.

.

 

[Ames]

Holdontoyourhat,

This you making it up as you go along? Why, because the virtual perp' left cord around JonBenet's neck and wrists, and tape on her mouth, did he forget to take these items with him too?


Sounds almost biblical, e.g. the perp' left a sign, and of course as usual your explanation is not valid, because 1. the perp left both cord and tape evidence behind, and 2. there is the alternative explanation that the perp' may have sourced the cord and the tape in the house, why because he was a nasty perp' and decided, at the last minute, against kidnapping JonBenet in favor of molesting her.

Unfortunately for the IDI theorists, there is no forensic evidence that links to an external intruder.

.

RIGHT ON!! He must have not been to worried about leaving evidence behind, since he left those things on her. It makes no sense that he would use some of the tape and cord on her, and then take the rest with him, so as not to leave any incriminating evidence. You are right...if he had of not wanted to leave evidence...he would have taken off the rope and tape left on JB's body...and taken it too!!