IDIs On This Forum?

[Rino]

Way overboard. If you stop and think about it, the idea of beheading a 6 year old girl was presented in the RN. Nobody thinks about beheading a 6 year old girl. Its not in a movie, its not in a book. Its totally unique, and superfluous to any RDI scenario (that means it doesn't fit any RDI scenario).

Only a nut would think of this.

Weak

 

[JMO8778]

Way overboard. If you stop and think about it, the idea of beheading a 6 year old girl was presented in the RN. Nobody thinks about beheading a 6 year old girl. Its not in a movie, its not in a book. Its totally unique, and superfluous to any RDI scenario (that means it doesn't fit any RDI scenario).

Only a nut would think of this.

oh it fits the RDI scenario alright...she was killed in her own home by a parent..they need a diversion,and someone outside the home to point to...JR recalls how Merrick was upset with him and AG...and the whole RN,right from the beginning...the 'SFF'..(aimed right at Merrick and co.) ...the '2 gentlemen watching over his daughter who don't particularly like him so he is advised not to provoke them (li'l dig put in by JR to insure it appears he knows who they are,and is *not to call them !),the switching to his first name at the end...as if they know him on a first name basis (sure narrows it down,doesn't it? JR put it in there for that very reason),the ref. to 'fat cat' and 'use that good southern common sense of yours'...all to once again point to JM and friends...(JM knew him prior).
And then we have JR's comment,upon immediately finding the body..'this had to be an inside job',and his constant pointing out JM to LE ...yep...it was a setup alright.
I read somewhere JM was writing a book...that should be interesting.I'm anxious to hear what he has to say about it.

 

[UKGuy]

Don't you see all these things that have to happen just so, in the IDI scenario? That's ridiculous.

Both theories are ridiculous, because at its heart, the sexual assault and murder of JBR (as well as the ensuing media/LE/legal circus) is so alien and unlike anything that's happened before or since. In and of itself, the whole case is ridiculous. If the truth were ever known -- incontrovertible evidence for either IDI or RDI -- the truth would even seem ridiculous.

No matter which side you're on, you have to imagine a bizarre and almost impossible series of events. The IDI scenario makes no damn sense, and frankly I don't think RDI makes much "sense" either -- but it's the one supported by not only the evidence, but by everything I know about human nature. Kidnappers/murderers simply do not spend hours in a strange house, feeding the victim pineapple and writing 3-page ransom notes for a dead body.

RDI is convoluted and ridiculous? Maybe so, but there's more than a touch of "the pot calling the kettle black" there.

lilywhite,

RDI is convoluted and ridiculous?

If you reckon so, then my unpublished theory regarding JonBenet's death would probably be rejected for being convoluted and ridiculous.

So what's your take if you reckon an IDI or RDI are both convoluted and ridiculous?

.

 

[UKGuy]

What conditions exist where it would make sense to misspell business deliberately, but spell attache correctly?

I suppose they would be the same conditions where it would make sense to threaten to behead a 6 year old girl. Going a bit overboard, though. Not even believable. Were'nt they trying for believable?

Holdontoyourhat,

make sense to threaten to behead a 6 year old girl.

This could have been intended as part of the original plan, e.g. JonBenet was intended to have been beheaded, to remove forensic evidence, with her head missing and her neck suitably mutilated all forensic evidence of head trauma and prior asphyxiation would vanish, the public domain rationale would simply be that the Ramsey's contacted the police?


.

 

[Toltec]

The scream....any intruder would get the heck out of dodge once JonBenet screamed. Instead, he stayed and fashioned a garotte, tied it around her neck, wrapped her papoose style in her blanket and placed her on the floor in the wine cellar.

Intruder??? Yeah, right.

 

[Ames]

Or the conditions you already set up in an earlier post:



( http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php? p=1570190#post1570190 )

I think it makes absolutely perfect sense that Patsy might have paid careful attention to the RN "staging" -- i.e. handwriting, spelling -- in the beginning of the note, and then relaxed enough by the end that her own writing and manner of speaking slipped in.

She'd have been far better served with the standard "We have your daughter. 10 Million. Don't call the cops." Hard to source handwriting OR writing style from that.

The only one going "overboard" here is Patsy, in writing this manifesto that she thought would sound like a kidnapper but sounds like a bunch of baloney right from the first line instead.

EXACTLY!!! And TEN expert handwriting analyst agree.

 

[Ames]

Don't you see all these things that have to happen just so, in the IDI scenario? That's ridiculous.

Both theories are ridiculous, because at its heart, the sexual assault and murder of JBR (as well as the ensuing media/LE/legal circus) is so alien and unlike anything that's happened before or since. In and of itself, the whole case is ridiculous. If the truth were ever known -- incontrovertible evidence for either IDI or RDI -- the truth would even seem ridiculous.

No matter which side you're on, you have to imagine a bizarre and almost impossible series of events. The IDI scenario makes no damn sense, and frankly I don't think RDI makes much "sense" either -- but it's the one supported by not only the evidence, but by everything I know about human nature. Kidnappers/murderers simply do not spend hours in a strange house, feeding the victim pineapple and writing 3-page ransom notes for a dead body.

RDI is convoluted and ridiculous? Maybe so, but there's more than a touch of "the pot calling the kettle black" there.

Very well said....bravo, bravo!!!

 

[Ames]

The scream....any intruder would get the heck out of dodge once JonBenet screamed. Instead, he stayed and fashioned a garotte, tied it around her neck, wrapped her papoose style in her blanket and placed her on the floor in the wine cellar.

Intruder??? Yeah, right.

GOOD POINT!!! I had never thought of that before. If that was JB screaming...and it had of been an intruder....he would have made a beeline toward the door, because she MIGHT just wake up her parents and brother!!! And John might just come down carrying a big ole gun. That "intruder" sure did take alot of chances...didn't he? I have said before...that he "made himself at home"....without any fear WHATSOEVER of being caught!!!! WOW...he must have had some gonads...

 

[Ames]

The scream....any intruder would get the heck out of dodge once JonBenet screamed. Instead, he stayed and fashioned a garotte, tied it around her neck, wrapped her papoose style in her blanket and placed her on the floor in the wine cellar.

Intruder??? Yeah, right.

Oh yeah...and don't forget....that also AFTER the scream...he went and found her some nice, new, fresh, clean panties, wiped her down, and re-dressed her ALONG with the stuff that you mentioned. He was SO brave!!

 

[JMO8778]

Oh yeah...and don't forget....that also AFTER the scream...he went and found her some nice, new, fresh, clean panties, wiped her down, and re-dressed her ALONG with the stuff that you mentioned. He was SO brave!!

and so kind,and so neat and tidy,the list goes on..

 

[lilywhite]

So what's your take if you reckon an IDI or RDI are both convoluted and ridiculous?

I'm sorry; I thought my position was clear. I'd only just woken up! :bang:

Both theories are ridiculous, because at its heart, the sexual assault and murder of JBR (as well as the ensuing media/LE/legal circus) is so alien and unlike anything that's happened before or since. <snip> The IDI scenario makes no damn sense, and frankly I don't think RDI makes much "sense" either -- but it's the one supported by not only the evidence, but by everything I know about human nature.

I'm an RDI all the way.

 

[lilywhite]

This could have been intended as part of the original plan, e.g. JonBenet was intended to have been beheaded, to remove forensic evidence, with her head missing and her neck suitably mutilated all forensic evidence of head trauma and prior asphyxiation would vanish, the public domain rationale would simply be that the Ramsey's contacted the police?

That's fiendish and horrible and it actually makes a good deal of sense. Yikes. Maybe.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

If every claim RDI has stated as evidentiary fact were truely evidentiary fact, the R's would've been convicted either twice or three times. If RDI is prejudged, then the evidence can be construed in infinite bizarre RDI scenarios.

Rationalization.

 

[lilywhite]

If every claim RDI has stated as evidentiary fact were truely evidentiary fact, the R's would've been convicted either twice or three times.

Well, one would think.

But that doesn't make it so. Money/social class do hold weight in this society; I know it's not a truth everyone likes to think about, but there you have it.

[My husband successfully defended a totally bogus rape case a few years ago -- and freely admits that the only reason he was able to do so is because the accused had enough money to pay a lawyer the number of hours it took to find the witness that saw the "victim" come back into the bar after the alleged assault -- holding hands and snuggling with her "rapist." If that had been a court-appointed case, that kid would be in jail now. That's a fact.]

The Ramseys had enough money to protect themselves with lawyers and enough clout to intimidate the powers that be in Boulder. You can choose to believe they never did anything wrong and the fact of their wealth and influence is irrelevant. I choose to believe differently.

 

[DeeDee249]

The Rs also aligned themselves immediately (even before the 911 call) with powerful lawyers that were connected to the Colorado political machine, had ties with the Governor and those same defense attorneys had personal and business connections with the DA's office as well. Hunter should have excused himself from that case. Don't forget that Dictrict Attorneys are elected/appointed offices. Things like pensions hang in the balance. It really is not as impartial as it should be.
For example, look at prosecutor Mike Nyfong in the Duke University "faux" rape case. He was up for re-election, and went ahead with a fabricated case for political reasons.
There should have been, but never will be, an independent prosecutor for the Rs at the very beginning.

 

[JMO8778]

I agree,Dee and Lily...Holdon, you're saying justice always works as it should,but of course it doesn't,esp when $ is involved.
As far as things kicking in for the R's, even b/f the 911 call,I agree.LE was told right off the bat to treat them as victims...not as suspects.OK now...who said anything about suspects?
If it'd been a real KN .. **JonBenet** would have been the priority...NOT the R's.

 

[BBB167893]

The FBI didn't first recognize the RN as a fake, and then suspect the R's, as you imply. They said the same day 'look at the family', right?

I think those were separate incidents.

It seems RDI was decided on the first day. Then, the RN was considered fake, and the crime scene declared staged, right? But isn't this putting the carriage before the horse?

(As Walter Brennan): That ain't the way I heard it.

I'm sorry, but I wasn't able to find any Dr. McCann autopsy report. Is there a source that shows this physician even attended JBR at any point? Or is this another expert called in after the fact to look at second hand information?

After the fact, but I hardly see what that has to do with anything. This is his job, Holdon, and he's GOOD at it. I'll be more than happy to list his credentials. But since you brought it up, there WAS a physician who examined her at the autopsy, Andrew Sirotnak, who went on to co-author a treatise on sexual abuse along with one of the physicians who said that JB had been abused over time, and they used her as the jump-off point.

Who said "you're going to be finding her body' and to whom was it said? Source,, please?

That would be Ron Walker again.

Anyway, they could've still concluded RDI and declared the RN fake before JBR was found. Its still carriage before horse.

There's no evidence that anyone thought they did it until quite a ways down the line.

A physician attending JBR, either living or at autopsy, that voiced the opinion JBR was abused prior to the night she died. Not an armchair expert hired by a tabloid that used second hand info.

Look up.

Injuries to PR or JR consistent with a struggle.

You can't struggle when you're knocked into next week.

Some prior domestic violence, some violent movies in the house collection, consistent with the violence depicted in the RN and/or on JBR herself.

If THAT'S your criteria, I guess I'd better turn myself in!

A consensus of handwriting experts that decided PR and RN author's handwriting are one and the same. There was never any consensus. The reason there was no consensus is because there's too many differences.

Well, try this on: there is one thing that EVERYONE agrees on, and that is that whomever wrote the captions in the Ramsey family photo album wrote that note.

Forensic evidence of a very incriminating nature found on JBR, linking an R to the murder. A smoking gun.

Try this:

Fibers matched to the red sweater Patsy was wearing that night were found in places key to the crime: the paintbrush caddy she kept her art supplies in, the blanket used to wrap JonBenet's body, on the sticky side of the duct tape placed over JonBenet's mouth, and tied into both knots of the ligature used to strangle JonBenet. Patsy denies she ever went near these places wearing that sweater. In the interviews with Boulder prosecutors in August, 2000, prosecutor Bruce Levin summed up the evidence: MR. LEVIN: "I think that is probably fair. Based on the state of the art scientific testing, we believe the fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, were found tied into the ligature found on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket that she is wrapped in, were found on the duct tape that is found on the mouth, and the question is, can she explain to us how those fibers appeared in those places that are associated with her daughter's death. And I understand you are not going to answer those."

Now, keep in mind that it took this woman four YEARS to come up with an explanation, and even then, it just dug her deeper. She claimed, and you can find this on the Oct. 4th, 2002 48 Hours broadcast, that when JB's body was brought up, she threw herself on the body. BUT. BUT. But, in DOI, John writes that JB's body was already covered when Patsy came in.

The idea that PR snapped, but while snapping, created a very violent narrative 2 1/2 pages long, appears to be made up out of thin air.

It is! Because as far as I know, the idea is that she snapped, THEN wrote the thing.

The violence in the RN is superfluous to any kidnapping for ransom staging. And it sortof came and went with the murder. Yet another sign of intruder.

Actually, that was one of the tip-offs to the Feds.

Have you guys heard of Ellen Boehm, a woman from St Louis who murdered two of her children and attempted to murder the third in the late 80s? There was also absolutely no prior acts of violence towards her kids on her part, either, but she snapped one day and smothered her youngest...and within less than a year, she snapped again and smothered her next oldest child...eight days after she tried to electrocute the oldest in the bath tub by tossing in a turned-on hair dryer.

Susan Smith, Diane Downs, Darlie Routier, etc, all with no history of violence. It just happened.

I suppose they would be the same conditions where it would make sense to threaten to behead a 6 year old girl. Going a bit overboard, though. Not even believable. Were'nt they trying for believable?

Well, how else would you expect an Islamic radical to sound, Holdon? Because that's what the author was trying for. The RN is loaded with references to Islamic terrorism, but all in an oblique way because the person clearly had no idea what a real Islamic militant is like. People in this country were not NEARLY as familiar with Islamic radicalism before 9/11 as we are now, but even then, it was well-known that they behead people in that part of the world. Don't forget, it was only a few months prior to the killing that the name Osama bin Laden was becoming well-known.

You're kidding me, right? You've got PR dumbing down and forgetting to dumb down, all at the same time, in order to satisfy RDI scenario.

I wonder how well you'd do in her place.

There is actually another reason for her to have mispelled that particular word. It was supposed to point to a famous serial killer who also made that spelling error years ago and who was never caught.

Don't keep me in suspense!

If every claim RDI has stated as evidentiary fact were truely evidentiary fact, the R's would've been convicted either twice or three times.

All things being equal, Holdon, I would agree. But even a cursory evaluation of this case shows that things were not equal. Let me break it down:

1) The DA's office. When this one got dropped on Hunter, he had things pretty good. Status quo for almost thirty years. No one rocks the boat. He spent his time plea-bargaining minor cases. He didn't want this. He was cruising toward an easy retirement. He set up a definition of beyond a reasonable doubt that NO ONE could meet! He gave the Ramseys SO MUCh evidence that the FBI was aghast and said he was a fool. He was BUSINESS partners with them! And he was weak. The police wanted to arrest the Ramseys, let them stew in jail for a while, and see which one cracked first. That is a STANDARD ploy in cases like this. He wouldn't do it. Too bad.
He surrounded himself with people who were more like defense attorneys than prosecutors. Trip DeMuth, before ANY evidence was in, decided that the Ramseys couldn't do it. Why? Because he couldn't do it. That kind of thinking has NO PLACE in LE offices. I can forgive the average person for that kind of naivete, but he should KNOW better! One week before Karr's arrest, he said that just because a ten-month-old was dead with 28 fractures, it doesn't mean murder. I KID YOU NOT! (Midyette Case again) This man openly mocked the police presentation of evidence at the FBI meeting. Trip has a thing about "witch hunts." He said the cops were on a witch hunt agianst the Ramseys, a witch hunt against the mother who beat that 10-month-old to death, and now he's afraid of a witch hunt against the DA. That sounds like a DEFENSE attorney talking, like he just stepped out of a Perry Mason episode. None of them had any real expertise with Grand Juries.
Have you read V's Fosterama? It shows that Hunter was undercutting his own WITNESSES! How much worse can you get?
When Keenan (now Lacy took over), it was worse. She had wanted to go after Santa Bill McReynolds from day one. She was biased in the favor of the Ramseys because of their status. She has so much as said so. Lacy is known as a radical feminist who lets her belief in women's innocence cloud her reason. She demonstrated that in the U of CO case. Duke before Duke! She actually chastised Tom Haney for being too tough on Patsy during the '98 interviews. WHAT?! Number one, Haney was using standard techniques. Two, if you look at the tape, he's being perfectly calm! No threats, no intimidation. He's very calmly giving her a chance to explain the evidence. SHE'S the one cursing and jumping around and acting like she's got a scorpion in her panties! What was LACY watching?!
2) Money. Yeah, I know, "Oh, Dave, that's so cheap," but it's true. if this were a regular, blue-collar family like mine, they would be in prison this very day, right or wrong. This was a weak Da's office. No one really disputes that. They were used to handling indigent non-whites with public defenders, not a former Miss West Virginia whose husband is loaded and whose lawyer owns half the state! Who can hire their own experts! How many of us could do that?
COME ON, HOW MANY!?
That was a big part of it: John was able to hire an army of lawyers and PR people and PIs to keep him out of prison. You don't have to take my word for it. Robert Ressler, profiler extraordinaire, said the same. Heck, John Ramsey admitted that he hired them to keep him out of jail! When I was a kid, I was taught the Pledge of Allegiance. That part about justice for all should MEAN something. But there's one set of rules for the rich, one for the rest of us.
3) Specifics. When you have a case where there is evidence that points to both people, you as a prosecutor have to decide who did what. You HAVE to. You can't say "one did it, the other helped, you decide." Can't do that. They never could. One of them (Hofstrom I think) said "So what if she wrote the note? Doesn't mean she killed her daughter." Sad as it is to admit, he's RIGHT! It only proves she wrote the note.
4) The idea that a parent could do this rocks the comfort zone for too many people. Who wants to think that the Girl Scout Den Mother is a murderer? That's what did in the Grand Jury. The Grand Jury looked at the autopsy photos, and despite everything we know about murdering parents and despite all the evidence, they decided, based on NOTHING but emotion and naivete, that no parent could do this. You don't have to take my word for that. I can prove they did that.
Quote:
The pictures were so horrible that the jurors felt it was absolutely inconceivable that any mother on Earth could have been capable of doing such a thing to their own child.

But wait! Here is FBI agent Ron Walker, who was there that morning:
Quote:
Well, as much as it pains me to say it, yes, I've seen parents who have decapitated their children, I've seen cases where parents have drowned their children in bathtubs, I've seen cases where parents have strangled their children, have placed them in paper bags and smothered them, have strapped them in car seats and driven them into a body of water, any way that you can think of that a person can kill another person, almost all those ways are also ways that parents can kill their children.

Is that good enough for anyone?
An arrest was never a question in this case.
Chief Beckner: "Arrest them."
FBI: "Arrest them."
Dream Team Lawyers: "Arrest them."
And on and on. But the DA wouldn't go for it. Do you like the show "Law & Order?" It my favorite. Those DAs work WITH the cops. "Find out this," or "find out that," or "bring me some evidence of this." None of that here.
WHEW!

 

[JMO8778]

I think those were separate incidents.



(As Walter Brennan): That ain't the way I heard it.



After the fact, but I hardly see what that has to do with anything. This is his job, Holdon, and he's GOOD at it. I'll be more than happy to list his credentials. But since you brought it up, there WAS a physician who examined her at the autopsy, Andrew Sirotnak, who went on to co-author a treatise on sexual abuse along with one of the physicians who said that JB had been abused over time, and they used her as the jump-off point.



That would be Ron Walker again.



There's no evidence that anyone thought they did it until quite a ways down the line.



Look up.



You can't struggle when you're knocked into next week.



If THAT'S your criteria, I guess I'd better turn myself in!



Well, try this on: there is one thing that EVERYONE agrees on, and that is that whomever wrote the captions in the Ramsey family photo album wrote that note.



Try this:

Fibers matched to the red sweater Patsy was wearing that night were found in places key to the crime: the paintbrush caddy she kept her art supplies in, the blanket used to wrap JonBenet's body, on the sticky side of the duct tape placed over JonBenet's mouth, and tied into both knots of the ligature used to strangle JonBenet. Patsy denies she ever went near these places wearing that sweater. In the interviews with Boulder prosecutors in August, 2000, prosecutor Bruce Levin summed up the evidence: MR. LEVIN: "I think that is probably fair. Based on the state of the art scientific testing, we believe the fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, were found tied into the ligature found on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket that she is wrapped in, were found on the duct tape that is found on the mouth, and the question is, can she explain to us how those fibers appeared in those places that are associated with her daughter's death. And I understand you are not going to answer those."

Now, keep in mind that it took this woman four YEARS to come up with an explanation, and even then, it just dug her deeper. She claimed, and you can find this on the Oct. 4th, 2002 48 Hours broadcast, that when JB's body was brought up, she threw herself on the body. BUT. BUT. But, in DOI, John writes that JB's body was already covered when Patsy came in.



It is! Because as far as I know, the idea is that she snapped, THEN wrote the thing.



Actually, that was one of the tip-offs to the Feds.



Susan Smith, Diane Downs, Darlie Routier, etc, all with no history of violence. It just happened.



Well, how else would you expect an Islamic radical to sound, Holdon? Because that's what the author was trying for. The RN is loaded with references to Islamic terrorism, but all in an oblique way because the person clearly had no idea what a real Islamic militant is like. People in this country were not NEARLY as familiar with Islamic radicalism before 9/11 as we are now, but even then, it was well-known that they behead people in that part of the world. Don't forget, it was only a few months prior to the killing that the name Osama bin Laden was becoming well-known.



I wonder how well you'd do in her place.



Don't keep me in suspense!



All things being equal, Holdon, I would agree. But even a cursory evaluation of this case shows that things were not equal. Let me break it down:

1) The DA's office. When this one got dropped on Hunter, he had things pretty good. Status quo for almost thirty years. No one rocks the boat. He spent his time plea-bargaining minor cases. He didn't want this. He was cruising toward an easy retirement. He set up a definition of beyond a reasonable doubt that NO ONE could meet! He gave the Ramseys SO MUCh evidence that the FBI was aghast and said he was a fool. He was BUSINESS partners with them! And he was weak. The police wanted to arrest the Ramseys, let them stew in jail for a while, and see which one cracked first. That is a STANDARD ploy in cases like this. He wouldn't do it. Too bad.
He surrounded himself with people who were more like defense attorneys than prosecutors. Trip DeMuth, before ANY evidence was in, decided that the Ramseys couldn't do it. Why? Because he couldn't do it. That kind of thinking has NO PLACE in LE offices. I can forgive the average person for that kind of naivete, but he should KNOW better! One week before Karr's arrest, he said that just because a ten-month-old was dead with 28 fractures, it doesn't mean murder. I KID YOU NOT! (Midyette Case again) This man openly mocked the police presentation of evidence at the FBI meeting. Trip has a thing about "witch hunts." He said the cops were on a witch hunt agianst the Ramseys, a witch hunt against the mother who beat that 10-month-old to death, and now he's afraid of a witch hunt against the DA. That sounds like a DEFENSE attorney talking, like he just stepped out of a Perry Mason episode. None of them had any real expertise with Grand Juries.
Have you read V's Fosterama? It shows that Hunter was undercutting his own WITNESSES! How much worse can you get?
When Keenan (now Lacy took over), it was worse. She had wanted to go after Santa Bill McReynolds from day one. She was biased in the favor of the Ramseys because of their status. She has so much as said so. Lacy is known as a radical feminist who lets her belief in women's innocence cloud her reason. She demonstrated that in the U of CO case. Duke before Duke! She actually chastised Tom Haney for being too tough on Patsy during the '98 interviews. WHAT?! Number one, Haney was using standard techniques. Two, if you look at the tape, he's being perfectly calm! No threats, no intimidation. He's very calmly giving her a chance to explain the evidence. SHE'S the one cursing and jumping around and acting like she's got a scorpion in her panties! What was LACY watching?!
2) Money. Yeah, I know, "Oh, Dave, that's so cheap," but it's true. if this were a regular, blue-collar family like mine, they would be in prison this very day, right or wrong. This was a weak Da's office. No one really disputes that. They were used to handling indigent non-whites with public defenders, not a former Miss West Virginia whose husband is loaded and whose lawyer owns half the state! Who can hire their own experts! How many of us could do that?
COME ON, HOW MANY!?
That was a big part of it: John was able to hire an army of lawyers and PR people and PIs to keep him out of prison. You don't have to take my word for it. Robert Ressler, profiler extraordinaire, said the same. Heck, John Ramsey admitted that he hired them to keep him out of jail! When I was a kid, I was taught the Pledge of Allegiance. That part about justice for all should MEAN something. But there's one set of rules for the rich, one for the rest of us.
3) Specifics. When you have a case where there is evidence that points to both people, you as a prosecutor have to decide who did what. You HAVE to. You can't say "one did it, the other helped, you decide." Can't do that. They never could. One of them (Hofstrom I think) said "So what if she wrote the note? Doesn't mean she killed her daughter." Sad as it is to admit, he's RIGHT! It only proves she wrote the note.
4) The idea that a parent could do this rocks the comfort zone for too many people. Who wants to think that the Girl Scout Den Mother is a murderer? That's what did in the Grand Jury. The Grand Jury looked at the autopsy photos, and despite everything we know about murdering parents and despite all the evidence, they decided, based on NOTHING but emotion and naivete, that no parent could do this. You don't have to take my word for that. I can prove they did that.
Quote:
The pictures were so horrible that the jurors felt it was absolutely inconceivable that any mother on Earth could have been capable of doing such a thing to their own child.

But wait! Here is FBI agent Ron Walker, who was there that morning:
Quote:
Well, as much as it pains me to say it, yes, I've seen parents who have decapitated their children, I've seen cases where parents have drowned their children in bathtubs, I've seen cases where parents have strangled their children, have placed them in paper bags and smothered them, have strapped them in car seats and driven them into a body of water, any way that you can think of that a person can kill another person, almost all those ways are also ways that parents can kill their children.

Is that good enough for anyone?
An arrest was never a question in this case.
Chief Beckner: "Arrest them."
FBI: "Arrest them."
Dream Team Lawyers: "Arrest them."
And on and on. But the DA wouldn't go for it. Do you like the show "Law & Order?" It my favorite. Those DAs work WITH the cops. "Find out this," or "find out that," or "bring me some evidence of this." None of that here.
WHEW!

:clap::clap::clap:

that had to have been tiring !

 

[Ames]

I think those were separate incidents.



(As Walter Brennan): That ain't the way I heard it.



After the fact, but I hardly see what that has to do with anything. This is his job, Holdon, and he's GOOD at it. I'll be more than happy to list his credentials. But since you brought it up, there WAS a physician who examined her at the autopsy, Andrew Sirotnak, who went on to co-author a treatise on sexual abuse along with one of the physicians who said that JB had been abused over time, and they used her as the jump-off point.



That would be Ron Walker again.



There's no evidence that anyone thought they did it until quite a ways down the line.



Look up.



You can't struggle when you're knocked into next week.



If THAT'S your criteria, I guess I'd better turn myself in!



Well, try this on: there is one thing that EVERYONE agrees on, and that is that whomever wrote the captions in the Ramsey family photo album wrote that note.



Try this:

Fibers matched to the red sweater Patsy was wearing that night were found in places key to the crime: the paintbrush caddy she kept her art supplies in, the blanket used to wrap JonBenet's body, on the sticky side of the duct tape placed over JonBenet's mouth, and tied into both knots of the ligature used to strangle JonBenet. Patsy denies she ever went near these places wearing that sweater. In the interviews with Boulder prosecutors in August, 2000, prosecutor Bruce Levin summed up the evidence: MR. LEVIN: "I think that is probably fair. Based on the state of the art scientific testing, we believe the fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, were found tied into the ligature found on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket that she is wrapped in, were found on the duct tape that is found on the mouth, and the question is, can she explain to us how those fibers appeared in those places that are associated with her daughter's death. And I understand you are not going to answer those."

Now, keep in mind that it took this woman four YEARS to come up with an explanation, and even then, it just dug her deeper. She claimed, and you can find this on the Oct. 4th, 2002 48 Hours broadcast, that when JB's body was brought up, she threw herself on the body. BUT. BUT. But, in DOI, John writes that JB's body was already covered when Patsy came in.



It is! Because as far as I know, the idea is that she snapped, THEN wrote the thing.



Actually, that was one of the tip-offs to the Feds.



Susan Smith, Diane Downs, Darlie Routier, etc, all with no history of violence. It just happened.



Well, how else would you expect an Islamic radical to sound, Holdon? Because that's what the author was trying for. The RN is loaded with references to Islamic terrorism, but all in an oblique way because the person clearly had no idea what a real Islamic militant is like. People in this country were not NEARLY as familiar with Islamic radicalism before 9/11 as we are now, but even then, it was well-known that they behead people in that part of the world. Don't forget, it was only a few months prior to the killing that the name Osama bin Laden was becoming well-known.



I wonder how well you'd do in her place.



Don't keep me in suspense!



All things being equal, Holdon, I would agree. But even a cursory evaluation of this case shows that things were not equal. Let me break it down:

1) The DA's office. When this one got dropped on Hunter, he had things pretty good. Status quo for almost thirty years. No one rocks the boat. He spent his time plea-bargaining minor cases. He didn't want this. He was cruising toward an easy retirement. He set up a definition of beyond a reasonable doubt that NO ONE could meet! He gave the Ramseys SO MUCh evidence that the FBI was aghast and said he was a fool. He was BUSINESS partners with them! And he was weak. The police wanted to arrest the Ramseys, let them stew in jail for a while, and see which one cracked first. That is a STANDARD ploy in cases like this. He wouldn't do it. Too bad.
He surrounded himself with people who were more like defense attorneys than prosecutors. Trip DeMuth, before ANY evidence was in, decided that the Ramseys couldn't do it. Why? Because he couldn't do it. That kind of thinking has NO PLACE in LE offices. I can forgive the average person for that kind of naivete, but he should KNOW better! One week before Karr's arrest, he said that just because a ten-month-old was dead with 28 fractures, it doesn't mean murder. I KID YOU NOT! (Midyette Case again) This man openly mocked the police presentation of evidence at the FBI meeting. Trip has a thing about "witch hunts." He said the cops were on a witch hunt agianst the Ramseys, a witch hunt against the mother who beat that 10-month-old to death, and now he's afraid of a witch hunt against the DA. That sounds like a DEFENSE attorney talking, like he just stepped out of a Perry Mason episode. None of them had any real expertise with Grand Juries.
Have you read V's Fosterama? It shows that Hunter was undercutting his own WITNESSES! How much worse can you get?
When Keenan (now Lacy took over), it was worse. She had wanted to go after Santa Bill McReynolds from day one. She was biased in the favor of the Ramseys because of their status. She has so much as said so. Lacy is known as a radical feminist who lets her belief in women's innocence cloud her reason. She demonstrated that in the U of CO case. Duke before Duke! She actually chastised Tom Haney for being too tough on Patsy during the '98 interviews. WHAT?! Number one, Haney was using standard techniques. Two, if you look at the tape, he's being perfectly calm! No threats, no intimidation. He's very calmly giving her a chance to explain the evidence. SHE'S the one cursing and jumping around and acting like she's got a scorpion in her panties! What was LACY watching?!
2) Money. Yeah, I know, "Oh, Dave, that's so cheap," but it's true. if this were a regular, blue-collar family like mine, they would be in prison this very day, right or wrong. This was a weak Da's office. No one really disputes that. They were used to handling indigent non-whites with public defenders, not a former Miss West Virginia whose husband is loaded and whose lawyer owns half the state! Who can hire their own experts! How many of us could do that?
COME ON, HOW MANY!?
That was a big part of it: John was able to hire an army of lawyers and PR people and PIs to keep him out of prison. You don't have to take my word for it. Robert Ressler, profiler extraordinaire, said the same. Heck, John Ramsey admitted that he hired them to keep him out of jail! When I was a kid, I was taught the Pledge of Allegiance. That part about justice for all should MEAN something. But there's one set of rules for the rich, one for the rest of us.
3) Specifics. When you have a case where there is evidence that points to both people, you as a prosecutor have to decide who did what. You HAVE to. You can't say "one did it, the other helped, you decide." Can't do that. They never could. One of them (Hofstrom I think) said "So what if she wrote the note? Doesn't mean she killed her daughter." Sad as it is to admit, he's RIGHT! It only proves she wrote the note.
4) The idea that a parent could do this rocks the comfort zone for too many people. Who wants to think that the Girl Scout Den Mother is a murderer? That's what did in the Grand Jury. The Grand Jury looked at the autopsy photos, and despite everything we know about murdering parents and despite all the evidence, they decided, based on NOTHING but emotion and naivete, that no parent could do this. You don't have to take my word for that. I can prove they did that.
Quote:
The pictures were so horrible that the jurors felt it was absolutely inconceivable that any mother on Earth could have been capable of doing such a thing to their own child.

But wait! Here is FBI agent Ron Walker, who was there that morning:
Quote:
Well, as much as it pains me to say it, yes, I've seen parents who have decapitated their children, I've seen cases where parents have drowned their children in bathtubs, I've seen cases where parents have strangled their children, have placed them in paper bags and smothered them, have strapped them in car seats and driven them into a body of water, any way that you can think of that a person can kill another person, almost all those ways are also ways that parents can kill their children.

Is that good enough for anyone?
An arrest was never a question in this case.
Chief Beckner: "Arrest them."
FBI: "Arrest them."
Dream Team Lawyers: "Arrest them."
And on and on. But the DA wouldn't go for it. Do you like the show "Law & Order?" It my favorite. Those DAs work WITH the cops. "Find out this," or "find out that," or "bring me some evidence of this." None of that here.
WHEW!

:clap: You can't see it...but I am giving you a standing ovation!!! That was awesome, you should write a BOOK!!!

I don't know WHY in the world I didn't pick up on that before, about Patsy saying her fibers got onto JB when she fell on top of her. John ALSO states in his interview, ..(98, I believe), along with DOI...that he had already covered JB up before Patsy got into the room...because he didn't want Patsy to see her like that. Awesome observation!! How could Patsy's fibers have possibly gotten onto JB when she was already covered up when Patsy came into the room? Better yet...how did they end up on the STICKY side of the tape....HMMMMM....this is a good question for HOTYH.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well, try this on: there is one thing that EVERYONE agrees on, and that is that whomever wrote the captions in the Ramsey family photo album wrote that note.

Who says the author of the ransom note and the family photo album caption writer are one and the same?