If JonBenet's death was an accident...

[Tadpole12]

I wonder if LHP was a bit disappointed to receive a blouse, when she might have been expecting a $$ Christmas Bonus (like she got the first year)? Perhaps she was even counting on it. Let's see now, from memory, she rang the following day (24th) and said she couldn't come into work because she had had a fight with her sister over payment of some debt (rent?) and it was then she asked for the $1,000 loan. Hmmmmmmmm.

heyya MF.

Cheque or cash, LHP claims she would pick it up on the Friday.




http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/02181999lindapughstorypmpt.htm

I was supposed to come back the next day, December 24, and clean up. I called Patsy and said I couldn't. I told her I had a fight with my sister and needed some money to pay the rent. I asked Patsy for a $2,000 loan. I told her I would pay it back $50 each week. She didn't hesitate. "Sure." Said she'd leave it for me on the kitchen counter for my next regular visit on December 27.

 

[MurriFlower]

The molestation must have taken place between the head blow and strangulation, because I believe a broken part of the paintbrush was used to insert into JonBenet's vagina. Although JonBenet was unconcious, she bled when the paintbrush handle was inserted. She was redressed, placed on her belly, and then strangled to death. That is when the urine was released...

The blood on her vagina does not correspond with the blood on her panties...signs that she was redressed before strangulation.

Ok, so can I assume you subscribe to either the bedwetting (shoved into an object) or the molestation by JR (hit accidentally/purposely by the flashlight) theory?

Regardless, the head bash happened either in her room or in her bathroom on the second floor.

Now we have an unconscious JBR and either one (PR) or both parents wishing to cover for themselves and what occurred.

So, then, why do they carry her to the basement?

When did the 'ransom' idea come to them?

The pocket knife was in the closet near the bedroom, where was the tape and cord?

So, now she is in the basement, unconscious.

Why was she laid out on the floor in the hallway rather than in another area?

She is placed on her back, her clothing removed and the paintbrush shoved in hard enough to cause bleeding. Was the paintbrush used because it was handy or was this the reason for her being placed in that area (the paintbrush was near)? If it was done to cover the prior sexual assault then the head bash must have been inflicted with the flashlight by PR following finding JR molesting her, otherwise, why do it at all?

How would PR know she had been molested by JR prior to that night? Doesn't seem right that she was head bashed before he confessed to his previous behaviour?

Then she was wiped, with what?
Then her clothing was replaced. She was rolled onto her stomach -- why? Then the cord was wrapped around her neck and pulled tight till she died. It was then tied off with a knot and the paintbrush was broken at both ends. The brush end was put back in the tote and the other end (with blood on it?) was put where??

The long piece of the cord was wrapped around the (paintbrush) stick, why? Then her arms were tied with 15" of cord between them, why?

The tape was placed on her mouth. She was carried or dragged into the wine cellar, by whom? A blanket was either retrieved from the bedroom or taken from the dryer, together with her nightgown, that might have been clinging onto it, and she was wrapped up, like a papoose. Why were her arms above her head and her feet sticking out rather than being tucked in properly? Then the light was turned off, why not left on?

Then one of the parents moved the suitcase under the window and opened it. Why did they put a chair against the door on the outside??

They then went upstairs, took the batteries out of the flashlight and wiped them, replaced them and wiped the flashlight outside. What did they wipe it with? Why did they leave it on the bench rather than replace it in the drawer? It was the murder weapon, wouldn't that look suspicious?

They then wrote the RN. Why was it so long? Why did it threaten to behead her and deny her remains for burial, when she was downstairs strangled? Why was the RN left on the stairs rather than on her bed?

Why did they call 911 at 6am rather than earlier or later? Why didn't they wait till after 10am to call the cops, thus obeying their own instructions?

Why did JR go to the basement and find JBR then pick her up and carry her upstairs and ruin all their good work in staging the crime as a kidnapping gone wrong?

Please RDI, kindly help me to understand your theory.

 

[wonderllama]

Just in relation to the note....

As a RDI, I suspect it's incorrect to then assume that the note was found on the stairs.
I also then make the assumption that the contents of the note are also bogus.

Information supplied BY the Ramsey's must therefore also be looked at as suspicious.

This is the thing Murri, IDI believe them, RDI don't...which pretty much means that you have to go by what is there and found rather than the stories surrounding it as we're not going to agree on those things.

The note being the perfect example....I see it as a piece of evidence pointing to the Ramseys whereas you see it as an actual Instruction sheet. But that's only AFTER we'be both read it.

We need to go back to where the common ground is and work 'til we meet the fork in the road.

 

[MurriFlower]

Just in relation to the note....

As a RDI, I suspect it's incorrect to then assume that the note was found on the stairs.
I also then make the assumption that the contents of the note are also bogus.

Information supplied BY the Ramsey's must therefore also be looked at as suspicious.

This is the thing Murri, IDI believe them, RDI don't...which pretty much means that you have to go by what is there and found rather than the stories surrounding it as we're not going to agree on those things.

The note being the perfect example....I see it as a piece of evidence pointing to the Ramseys whereas you see it as an actual Instruction sheet. But that's only AFTER we'be both read it.

We need to go back to where the common ground is and work 'til we meet the fork in the road.

No, absolutely. RDI needs to believe they lied about just about everything. However, there is a theory, and that theory must fit with what actually happened, regardless of what the Rs may or may not have said. If they placed the RN on the stairs, why would they have done this in preference to having placed it on JBRs bed, given they could do whatever they liked as it was them who made up the story??

So, if you don't mind, can we go through the sequence of events and try to make sense of why some of these things were done?

 

[claudicici]

Ok, so can I assume you subscribe to either the bedwetting (shoved into an object) or the molestation by JR (hit accidentally/purposely by the flashlight) theory?
I don't believe neither

Regardless, the head bash happened either in her room or in her bathroom on the second floor.
I believe it most likely happened in the kitchen,while eating the pineapple

Now we have an unconscious JBR and either one (PR) or both parents wishing to cover for themselves and what occurred.

So, then, why do they carry her to the basement?
I believe PR took her there so she would not wake anyone

When did the 'ransom' idea come to them?
I believe PR wrote the RN before the (premeditated) murder

The pocket knife was in the closet near the bedroom, where was the tape and cord?I find the theory that the tape came from the American Doll and the cord from the painting somewhat credible

So, now she is in the basement, unconscious.

Why was she laid out on the floor in the hallway rather than in another area? Maybe because like you said the paintbrush was near

She is placed on her back, her clothing removed and the paintbrush shoved in hard enough to cause bleeding. Was the paintbrush used because it was handy or was this the reason for her being placed in that area (the paintbrush was near)? If it was done to cover the prior sexual assault then the head bash must have been inflicted with the flashlight by PR following finding JR molesting her, otherwise, why do it at all?
I think is was done sort of in a ritualic way.The paint brush,sexual abuse,JonBenet...everything that meant a lot to PR.I think she was recreating her childhood,the brush her tool of creativity,Jon Benet her creation,her pain,relived.
How would PR know she had been molested by JR prior to that night? Doesn't seem right that she was head bashed before he confessed to his previous behaviour?I don't think JR was the abuser,may have been though

Then she was wiped, with what? was it a dark cloth? wahtever it was it was not retrieved
Then her clothing was replaced. She was rolled onto her stomach -- why? ..to tie the ligatureThen the cord was wrapped around her neck and pulled tight till she died. It was then tied off with a knot and the paintbrush was broken at both ends. The brush end was put back in the tote and the other end (with blood on it?) was put where?? wherever the cloth went that she was wiped with,JR's golf bag possibly?

The long piece of the cord was wrapped around the (paintbrush) stick, why? Then her arms were tied with 15" of cord between them, why? I think the way she was bound had some sort of symbolic meaning to PR.tying knots,like in a wedding,bound for eternity,christ like.

The tape was placed on her mouth. She was carried or dragged into the wine cellar, by whom? A blanket was either retrieved from the bedroom or taken from the dryer, together with her nightgown, that might have been clinging onto it, and she was wrapped up, like a papoose. Why were her arms above her head and her feet sticking out rather than being tucked in properly? Then the light was turned off, why not left on?It also reminds me of Christ taken off the cross,wrapped in a sheet but his feet and arms out.Lights out so she can rest in peace.

Then one of the parents moved the suitcase under the window and opened it. Why did they put a chair against the door on the outside??
I thought FW moved the suitcase?..and the window was already open?...JR closed it?...PR IMO put the chair there so it would be harder to find JonBenet

They then went upstairs, took the batteries out of the flashlight and wiped them, replaced them and wiped the flashlight outside. What did they wipe it with? Why did they leave it on the bench rather than replace it in the drawer? It was the murder weapon, wouldn't that look suspicious?
I also think more of a symbolic meaning.Like pontius pilate washing his hands.

They then wrote the RN. Why was it so long? Why did it threaten to behead her and deny her remains for burial, when she was downstairs strangled? Why was the RN left on the stairs rather than on her bed?
I believe it was written before the murder.I think the beheading would be the worst thread imaginable along with denying the remains for burial.PR would have never let that happen.
Why did they call 911 at 6am rather than earlier or later? Why didn't they wait till after 10am to call the cops, thus obeying their own instructions?
IMO because JR woke up

Why did JR go to the basement and find JBR then pick her up and carry her upstairs and ruin all their good work in staging the crime as a kidnapping gone wrong?IMO he was not involved at that point

Please RDI, kindly help me to understand your theory.

All this is just my opinion,at the moment

 

[MurriFlower]

All this is just my opinion,at the moment

Yes, but I think you are saying she was completely insane??

That is the only way to explain what you say you think occurred. The murder was premeditated, with the RN written before. The headbash for no actual reason (not anger/fear/jealousy), just because it was part of the 'murder plan'. The cord tied symbolically (religiously based).

Had she acted on this insanity previously or since the murder? Was it just a brief moment of madness or was she criminally insane since birth? Had she murdered others (Beth?) or was it just JBR who triggered the maddness?

 

[claudicici]

no,I don't think she was completley insane at all.I think she was delusianal when she snapped.I think it was a perfect storm of reliving her past ( in this theory PR was abused herself),having a near death experience,having an emeshed relationship with her daughter,her christian beliefs,her sense of grandieur and drama,extreme stress and maybe alcohol/ prescription drug mixture?

 

[MurriFlower]

no,I don't think she was completley insane at all.I think she was delusianal when she snapped.I think it was a perfect storm of reliving her past ( in this theory PR was abused herself),having a near death experience,having an emeshed relationship with her daughter,her christian beliefs,her sense of grandieur and drama,extreme stress and maybe alcohol/ prescription drug mixture?

my bold

So, she must have known someone was abusing JBR before that night, because the murder was planned, but she wanted others to believe it was a kidnapping gone wrong? Are you saying her daughter was sacrificed to atone for her mother's 'sins' (blaming herself for the abuse)? Or was she being saved from a life of abuse (such as PR had experienced)? You believe that she could have done all this without previously showing any hint of 'delusional' behaviour? And you also think she could have continued behaving rationally after the murder without relapse? So, could you be saying the mixture of all these things may have rendered her 'temporarily insane'??

 

[claudicici]

I think whatever happened may have happened Dec. 23rd at the party.I think there would be no way if PR was abused she would let that happen to her daughter.I believe she would rather have her as a perfect angel and she knew she would join her soon.I think she would have wanted it to be extremely grande,just the way it was,JonBenet would not be forgotten.I think she was saving JonBenet.I think she had no reason to "snap" before or after this happened.I think the "preemonition" she talks about in DOI are what convinces me most of the way I think she may have thought.

 

[CanManEh]

Im gonna take this off topic for one second . I was watching the grammy's last night and outta the blue i had this thought about JBR and wondering if this never had happened i wonder what music she woulda listened too . I have no idea why but thats what came in to my mind last night for some reason . what a tragedy ,

 

[Agatha_C]

He said he never read it. Though the autopsy does not mention her suffering or lack of anyway. As it also does not make clear whether the head blow came first, one can only form one's own opinions as to whether she suffered, depending on whether you view the cause of the vaginal bleeding as causing her pain. I think it did- that's why she screamed. The scream led to the head bash, IMO.

This theory makes sense to me. For me, it would explain why the paint brush was used in the garrote. I see it like this, if the paint brush was inserted and she screamed, causing the offender to bash her on the head; They (the offender/stager's) would have known her blood and fluids were on the paint brush, it had to become much more ominous then just a sex toy for an offender. A simple paint brush certainly would have looked more like a family member did it than a paint brush used sexually and then as a gruesome weapon of death. Distancing the family from the paint brush used as a sex toy that lead to the death of JBR.

 

[MurriFlower]

This theory makes sense to me. For me, it would explain why the paint brush was used in the garrote. I see it like this, if the paint brush was inserted and she screamed, causing the offender to bash her on the head; They (the offender/stager's) would have known her blood and fluids were on the paint brush, it had to become much more ominous then just a sex toy for an offender. A simple paint brush certainly would have looked more like a family member did it than a paint brush used sexually and then as a gruesome weapon of death. Distancing the family from the paint brush used as a sex toy that lead to the death of JBR.

Yes, I agree that it seems more likely that she was sexually abused then head bashed. But how does this sit with RDI? What reason would she have been taken to the basement to be abused by a family member? And why would the abuse have been so violent that caused her to scream and therefore to be killed? Most abusers of the 'friendly kind' wouldn't want to injure the child and cause such trauma that it would tell or need medical treatment, because they will be found out and spoil their fun.

 

[UKGuy]

If you look at this view of the package, you will see that the “days” are not visible; however, we only see one side.
I do think that the “days” were, in all likelihood, not visible and the package contents would have to be dumped in order to find a particular “day.”

I don’t believe her either. It’s interesting that one of the gifts was separated from the rest, could this have been the one that had the Bloomingdale panties?
Regardless, I believe that those packages were searched the night that JBR died for something that was needed for staging and or “undoing,” and the most probable item would be the panties.

TRIP DEMUTH: I have a question for you, 148 here.
PATSY RAMSEY: These were gifts I think I was holding back for Burke's birthday.
TRIP DEMUTH: They are in the red and white and yellow FAO Schwartz wrapping?
PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
TRIP DEMUTH: Now in 148 there is also this white pocket, do you know what that is? PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh, it looks like cotton. I don't know.
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. It is hard to sort of figure out where all of these pictures are taken, but there is another package over here.
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
TRIP DEMUTH: Does that look out of place or in the proper place?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I had -- you know, I stacked up some packages along there (inaudible). Kicked (inaudible) or something. I kind of have it backed up here.
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. So the packages in 146, it looks like it is out of place to you?
(I believe this is a transcription error, it should be package, not packages as corroborated by the context “it is out of place.”)
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. Yeah. See, that looks -- the door would be here.
TRIP DEMUTH: It is hard.
PATSY RAMSEY: So that would be back in here somewhere. I was right in front of the door.
TRIP DEMUTH: No. Here are the screens. You see the screens over here, the small screens, so it is more back in this.
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I would tuck them there.
TRIP DEMUTH: I guess the point is, there wasn't one that was off by itself. They should have all been together. The location in picture 148 is the correct place for all of the packages to have been? PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
TOM HANEY: Before we go on, could we just talk briefly about the packages, these were presents for whom, the ones that were left in there?
PATSY RAMSEY: I believe for, you know, I held some back for Burke's birthday which is in January.
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
TOM HANEY: So that could have been that.
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember what was in them.
TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be opened?
PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift wrapping. So like right here it looks like I kind of peeled a little back to see what was in it because I couldn't remember what was in them.
TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone partially, that was –
PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done that to peek to see what was in there.
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
TOM HANEY: Where did you do the bulk of your Christmas shopping, the items you put in there?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, all of this stuff right here was from FAO Schwartz in New York.
1998 interview, Patsy Ramsey

cynic,
Thanks for that.

Patsy just seems to be rambling here:

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember what was in them.
TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be opened?
PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift wrapping. So like right here it looks like I kind of peeled a little back to see what was in it because I couldn't remember what was in them.

She is asked TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be opened? and she shoots off to some tale about FAO Schwartz in New York, duh!

I am convinced Patsy is actively covering for someone else in the house. She lied for them and says she opened up some gifts, which she had no need to do.

The big question is: did the original wine-cellar stager know there was underwear wrapped in the gifts?

Although its feasible I cannot see Patsy telling the stager you will find some underwear in the gifts since she then attempts to explain away the size-12's JonBenet is wearing by stating she placed them into JonBenet's underwear drawer.

I'm assuming Patsy had no knowledge about the size-12's, so I'm also assuming her version of events regarding the longjohns is after the fact.

This is the clue , for me at least, that suggests there may have been two staging events Patsy's and some other person?

For some reason the barbie nightgown and doll were not removed from the staged crime-scene?

Is it safe to assume that the person who redressed JonBenet in those size-12's knew about there existence and location?

If so, who is the favorite to put your money on John or Burke?



.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, I agree that it seems more likely that she was sexually abused then head bashed. But how does this sit with RDI? What reason would she have been taken to the basement to be abused by a family member? And why would the abuse have been so violent that caused her to scream and therefore to be killed? Most abusers of the 'friendly kind' wouldn't want to injure the child and cause such trauma that it would tell or need medical treatment, because they will be found out and spoil their fun.

Even a "friendly" abuser would want to take her to the furthest corner of the house, the place furthest away from the third floor parents' room. (this holds true even if the abuser was a parent) The paintbrush handle is a proxy penis in this case. Therefore, no risk of ejaculation and the semen that would incriminate its donor. As we know, no semen was found in or on JB. If this is what occurred, I would envision the paintbrush as having been broken AFTER the assault, with the penetrating end (and the part to contain JB's blood and body fluids) still missing. Why not take the whole brush? Who knows. All we know is that part was used to make the garrote, part was left in the paint tote and the most important part is missing.
Difficult as this is to say, the paintbrush could also suffice as a proxy penis for someone too young to use his own.

 

[Toltec]

Even a "friendly" abuser would want to take her to the furthest corner of the house, the place furthest away from the third floor parents' room. (this holds true even if the abuser was a parent) The paintbrush handle is a proxy penis in this case. Therefore, no risk of ejaculation and the semen that would incriminate its donor. As we know, no semen was found in or on JB. If this is what occurred, I would envision the paintbrush as having been broken AFTER the assault, with the penetrating end (and the part to contain JB's blood and body fluids) still missing. Why not take the whole brush? Who knows. All we know is that part was used to make the garrote, part was left in the paint tote and the most important part is missing.
Difficult as this is to say, the paintbrush could also suffice as a proxy penis for someone too young to use his own.

A person too young to use his own...are you referring to Burke? As far as 9 year-old boys go, they can have erections.

If you look at the paintbrush itself, would Burke be strong enough to break it into three parts? Think about it...has anyone here tried to break a paintbrush in three?

 

[DeeDee249]

A person too young to use his own...are you referring to Burke? As far as 9 year-old boys go, they can have erections.

If you look at the paintbrush itself, would Burke be strong enough to break it into three parts? Think about it...has anyone here tried to break a paintbrush in three?

Boys even younger than 9 can have erections. But would they attempt intercourse? Not many of them. Inserting something into another child OTHER than a penis is something that some kids might do during sex play or exploration. I do not think BR would be able to do all that was done here by himself. As for breaking the paintbrush- that could have been done by whoever staged the scene or made the garrote and may not have been the same person to insert the paintbrush (if that was actually done) or the digital penetration.
We know there was cellulose. We don't know if that was simply wood splinters left there from the finger used for the digital penetration Mayer said he suspected, or if the paintbrush handle was used itself. I myself do not feel the paintbrush was used nor found inside her. I think there would have been more serious injuries if that was the case. Yet, the missing piece is puzzling.

 

[SunnieRN]

A person too young to use his own...are you referring to Burke? As far as 9 year-old boys go, they can have erections.

If you look at the paintbrush itself, would Burke be strong enough to break it into three parts? Think about it...has anyone here tried to break a paintbrush in three?

I don't think I could have broken the paintbrush in that fashion and wonder if Patsy could have. This was, IMHO, staged by more than one person. Some clues, fiber evidence, points to Patsy, underwear that is oversized, broken paintbrush and darker fibers, to John. I do believe they were covering for someone else.

 

[MurriFlower]

Even a "friendly" abuser would want to take her to the furthest corner of the house, the place furthest away from the third floor parents' room. (this holds true even if the abuser was a parent) The paintbrush handle is a proxy penis in this case. Therefore, no risk of ejaculation and the semen that would incriminate its donor. As we know, no semen was found in or on JB. If this is what occurred, I would envision the paintbrush as having been broken AFTER the assault, with the penetrating end (and the part to contain JB's blood and body fluids) still missing. Why not take the whole brush? Who knows. All we know is that part was used to make the garrote, part was left in the paint tote and the most important part is missing.
Difficult as this is to say, the paintbrush could also suffice as a proxy penis for someone too young to use his own.

Yes, this paintbrush thing is very silly. There were at least three other paint brushes in the tote that could have been used to assault her and there was no need to break them to tie the cord on, if it were just for show (staging).

 

[MurriFlower]

Just think on this fact. Both the longjohns and the panties were urine stained on the front and in addition the panties had some blood staining on the 'inner aspect of the crotch', described as 'several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch in maximum dimension'. This means she was wearing both items when she urinated, assuming this happened when she died. I think this precludes her panties being changed after her death as 'staging'. So, she was abused and the clothing pulled up/re-arranged before she was strangled/headbashed (assuming one or both were the cause of death).

 

[UKGuy]

The said fact and acute molestation does not rule out staging after the fact.

Since it is evident that staging is present, and we still await an IDI explanation for this?

I would suggest the staging is an attempt to hide the prior molestation e.g. no intruder needs to hide JonBenet's injuries under size-12's, longjohns and a white blanket. All very convenient once John presents a deceased JonBenet to the world. That is any molestation is not self evident!


I would go further and suggest staging within staging for which one stager had an ulterior motive, divorced from that of staging a homicide.

When asked why would the parents collude to stage such a bizarre crime-scene and for whom? Occam wins hands down: another relative.

So is it Burke or John, plainly Patsy was out of the loop in parts.


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