If JonBenet's death was an accident...

[MurriFlower]

So both the panties and longjohns were urine stained and the panties had blood stains. How does this indicate that her panties were changed? They were obviously on her when she died or even earlier if she urinated and emptied her bladder in fear before the fatal blow/strangle. They were not changed after death. How could staging occur prior to the assault or murder?

 

[DeeDee249]

So both the panties and longjohns were urine stained and the panties had blood stains. How does this indicate that her panties were changed? They were obviously on her when she died or even earlier if she urinated and emptied her bladder in fear before the fatal blow/strangle. They were not changed after death. How could staging occur prior to the assault or murder?

Not necessarily. If the wet longjohns were removed, then the clean (dry) panties put on, then the wet longjohns put back on, the panties could have gotten wet from the lonhjohns. I maintain she died wearing the longjohns. But one thing to consider is that wet items transfer fluids to each other and to dry items. If the urine wet both items, why didn't some of the blood transfer to the crotch of the longjohns? I know there were only a few drops of blood, so maybe there wasn't enough. Still- if you put a few drops of blood on a handkerchief, then lay the handkerchief on top of another one and wet them both, the blood should seep through to the bottom one, even though the blood was put only on the top one. This case has more twists than a bag of licorice.

 

[MurriFlower]

Not necessarily. If the wet longjohns were removed, then the clean (dry) panties put on, then the wet longjohns put back on, the panties could have gotten wet from the lonhjohns. I maintain she died wearing the longjohns. But one thing to consider is that wet items transfer fluids to each other and to dry items. If the urine wet both items, why didn't some of the blood transfer to the crotch of the longjohns? I know there were only a few drops of blood, so maybe there wasn't enough. Still- if you put a few drops of blood on a handkerchief, then lay the handkerchief on top of another one and wet them both, the blood should seep through to the bottom one, even though the blood was put only on the top one. This case has more twists than a bag of licorice.

So bearing in mind that the longjohns were underwear, I don't expect that they would hold enough urine to wet a dry pair of under pants placed under them after, but I'm sure you won't agree. She did not have her panties changed, there was no reason to. It did nothing to diminish the crime. There were a few drops of blood, that is all. It seems RDI is trying to suggest that there was more blood on the panties that they are also suggesting were swapped for the ones she was found in. Not sure why that is. It is obvious to me that she put these panties on herself on Chrismas day and these are the same ones that were on her when she was found. Whether she wet her pants more than once is not at issue. The small amount of blood on her panties was obviously not enough to soak through, even when wet. The sexual assault was not significant when compared to the violence of the murder. It almost seems to have been just a side issue, but even so, may have been the reason she had to be killed (if she could identify the person). This for me, excludes close family members, who are in a position to influence her. If, as RDI says, she suffered abuse previously, and didn't tell, then why kill her this time??

 

[DeeDee249]

So bearing in mind that the longjohns were underwear, I don't expect that they would hold enough urine to wet a dry pair of under pants placed under them after, but I'm sure you won't agree. She did not have her panties changed, there was no reason to. It did nothing to diminish the crime. There were a few drops of blood, that is all. It seems RDI is trying to suggest that there was more blood on the panties that they are also suggesting were swapped for the ones she was found in. Not sure why that is. It is obvious to me that she put these panties on herself on Chrismas day and these are the same ones that were on her when she was found. Whether she wet her pants more than once is not at issue. The small amount of blood on her panties was obviously not enough to soak through, even when wet. The sexual assault was not significant when compared to the violence of the murder. It almost seems to have been just a side issue, but even so, may have been the reason she had to be killed (if she could identify the person). This for me, excludes close family members, who are in a position to influence her. If, as RDI says, she suffered abuse previously, and didn't tell, then why kill her this time??

What would make anyone believe she put those panties on herself? She couldn't read, so someone would have had to choose the Wednesday pair for her and as we know, the set of 7 was never in her drawer anyway.
I don't agree that the longjohns wouldn't be wet enough to wet the panties. Anyone can try this experiment- take a pair of longjohns if you have them, if not use a pair of pajama bottoms or even a thin cotton pair of pants. Pour a little water on the front and front leg surfaces, enough to soak through to the back of the fabric. Then, put them on over the dry undies you are wearing and see if the undies get wet. They will. This test works for men or women, though mens' underwear may be thicker than women's.
The fact that JB may have been able to identify her abuser does not exclude the abuser being a family member. It is absurd to suggest it. Actually, the abuser being a family member is a big reason why no aid was sought after the head bash. "Let her die- it's for the best" comes into my mind, because obviously she can't identify her killer.
The FACT that the coroner determined that there had been blood wiped from her thighs and pubic area (and the swabs proved it was her blood) indicates there was far more blood than the few drops on the panties she was found in. And the coroner said that the stains on the panties did not match where blood was found on the body. Those are two things that PROVE the panties were not the ones she wore that day.

 

[MurriFlower]

What would make anyone believe she put those panties on herself? She couldn't read, so someone would have had to choose the Wednesday pair for her and as we know, the set of 7 was never in her drawer anyway.
I don't agree that the longjohns wouldn't be wet enough to wet the panties. Anyone can try this experiment- take a pair of longjohns if you have them, if not use a pair of pajama bottoms or even a thin cotton pair of pants. Pour a little water on the front and front leg surfaces, enough to soak through to the back of the fabric. Then, put them on over the dry undies you are wearing and see if the undies get wet. They will. This test works for men or women, though mens' underwear may be thicker than women's.
The fact that JB may have been able to identify her abuser does not exclude the abuser being a family member. It is absurd to suggest it. Actually, the abuser being a family member is a big reason why no aid was sought after the head bash. "Let her die- it's for the best" comes into my mind, because obviously she can't identify her killer.
The FACT that the coroner determined that there had been blood wiped from her thighs and pubic area (and the swabs proved it was her blood) indicates there was far more blood than the few drops on the panties she was found in. And the coroner said that the stains on the panties did not match where blood was found on the body. Those are two things that PROVE the panties were not the ones she wore that day.

Funnily enough, I predicted you wouldn't agree. However, I've no intention of falling back into the old RDI trap of discussing the non-existent panty issue ad nauseum. Let's move on, shall we??

The issue I'm trying to clarify is not whether or not the panties were replaced, but the sequence of events leading up to her death.

Here (in no particular order), are the events as far as I can see that RDI and IDI can agree on. Feel free to place them in the order you believe they occurred:

RN written
Taken/lured from bed
Taken to basement
Sexual Assault
Head Bash
Clothing Rearranged
Cords tied to wrists
Tape on mouth
Cord tied on neck
Strangled
Stick tied to cord
Wrapped in blanket
Nightgown with bloodstains

 

[DeeDee249]

Here (in no particular order), are the events as far as I can see that RDI and IDI can agree on. Feel free to place them in the order you believe they occurred:

RN written
Taken/lured from bed
Taken to basement
Sexual Assault
Head Bash
Clothing Rearranged
Cords tied to wrists
Tape on mouth
Cord tied on neck
Strangled
Stick tied to cord
Wrapped in blanket
Nightgown with bloodstains

Interesting exercise. I'll go first!
I am skipping the "taken from bed" because I don't think she went to bed.

Taken to basement
Sexual assault
Bloodstains on nightgown (if she was wearing it at the time)
Head bash
Clothing rearranged
Cord tied on neck
Stick tied to cord
Strangled
Cord tied to wrists
Tape on mouth
Wrapped in blanket

 

[MurriFlower]

Interesting exercise. I'll go first!
I am skipping the "taken from bed" because I don't think she went to bed.

Taken to basement
Sexual assault
Bloodstains on nightgown (if she was wearing it at the time)
Head bash
Clothing rearranged
Cord tied on neck
Stick tied to cord
Strangled
Cord tied to wrists
Tape on mouth
Wrapped in blanket

Ok, and the RN written??

 

[claudicici]

RN written
Head Bash


Taken to basement
Tape on mouth

Cords tied to wrists
Cord tied on neck
Stick tied to cord
Strangled


Sexual Assault
Nightgown with bloodstains

Clothing Rearranged


here's my take

 

[gngr~snap]

cynic,
Thanks for that.

Patsy just seems to be rambling here:



She is asked TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be opened? and she shoots off to some tale about FAO Schwartz in New York, duh!

I am convinced Patsy is actively covering for someone else in the house. She lied for them and says she opened up some gifts, which she had no need to do.

The big question is: did the original wine-cellar stager know there was underwear wrapped in the gifts?

Although its feasible I cannot see Patsy telling the stager you will find some underwear in the gifts since she then attempts to explain away the size-12's JonBenet is wearing by stating she placed them into JonBenet's underwear drawer.

I'm assuming Patsy had no knowledge about the size-12's, so I'm also assuming her version of events regarding the longjohns is after the fact.

This is the clue , for me at least, that suggests there may have been two staging events Patsy's and some other person?

For some reason the barbie nightgown and doll were not removed from the staged crime-scene?

Is it safe to assume that the person who redressed JonBenet in those size-12's knew about there existence and location?

If so, who is the favorite to put your money on John or Burke?



.

WOW! my head is spinning! lol
JMO- who other than PR would know the size 12 panties had even been purchased ? Much less where they had been placed? No intruder so or husband would! So in my tiny brain PR had to be involved to even bring them into this scenario.

Ingotta think about what happened in what order... dead = no heart beat = almost no blood. BUT I forgot about the scream....
I'll be back later on that one.
MOO

could that scream have been BR? He was still a young boy...

 

[gngr~snap]

Good Lord! I can't believe the way my mind works!

The paint brush. Gonna go with BR here. He tries and JB is still an intact virgin. A 9 yr old boy with a certain mindset would look around and grab the first thing he sees. He wouldn't evaluate and decipher. There is supposed to be a "place" and
JBR has "skin" in the way... how can I pop it? Hello paint brush...
MOO

 

[UKGuy]

So both the panties and longjohns were urine stained and the panties had blood stains. How does this indicate that her panties were changed? They were obviously on her when she died or even earlier if she urinated and emptied her bladder in fear before the fatal blow/strangle. They were not changed after death. How could staging occur prior to the assault or murder?

MurriFlower,

How could staging occur prior to the assault or murder?

Very, very simple. JonBenet was unconcious, and alive prior to being placed into the wine-cellar.

The person who applied the garrote actually killed her but the person who adminstered the head bash thought they had killed her. Logically this could be the same person.

So the act of staging the wine-cellar crime-scene which involved cleaning up a prior assault and redressing JonBenet in those size-12's, and longjohns, followed by the application of the fake garrote, and subsequently JonBenet voids her bladder, thus urine staining her clothes.

The purpose of the wine-cellar staging is not simply to hide the body away, but to divorce it from its prior location, hence remove suspicion from any one particular person e.g. the persons room in which JonBenet may have been originally assaulted?

Basically it looks like one person faked a crime-scene then another person thought this does not look very convincing or thought it had revealing flaws, so this second person re-engineered the staging.

This is why there is a bloodstained barbie night gown, and barbie doll to be found at the staged crime-scene!

What intruder requires a nightgown, doll, size-12's, gap white top, and longjohns?

The intruder only needed to sate his/her fetish and leave the house!


I forgot the fake, already used, duct-tape on JonBenet's mouth and the nylon cord restraints.

What does this tell you: it tells you these elements were applied after the last staging event, presumably for effect, they played absolutely no part in her alleged abduction or death.


So hazarding a guess, it could be that the pink nightgown and doll represents Patsy's attempt at staging and the white top , size-12's, and longjohns represents John's re-staging?


We still have no account of why any intruder would need to administer such a degree of staging to the wine-cellar crime-scene?



.

 

[gngr~snap]

I'm in agreement. huh... 2 stagers. neber thought of that. JMO I'd swap parents tho.JR did the barbie nightgown and PR said no way! and redressed to downplay her feminine side, which is exactly the opposite of pagentry and in her mind point awau from PR's involvement tomato/tomah-to both R's concealing a crime.

 

[UKGuy]

WOW! my head is spinning! lol
JMO- who other than PR would know the size 12 panties had even been purchased ? Much less where they had been placed? No intruder so or husband would! So in my tiny brain PR had to be involved to even bring them into this scenario.

Ingotta think about what happened in what order... dead = no heart beat = almost no blood. BUT I forgot about the scream....
I'll be back later on that one.
MOO

could that scream have been BR? He was still a young boy...

gngr~snap,

OK lets assume you are correct. Patsy is the only person who knows about the existence and location of the size-12's. On the night of JonBenet's death she opens them up and redresses JonBenet in a pair of Wednesday size-12's.
Subsequently she hides then removes the remaining 6-pairs from the house.

Since when the house was searched by the BPD, no Bloomingdale size-12 underwear was to be found!

As, Columbo might say, just one more question: When interviewed by BPD Patsy stated she purchased the Bloomingdale size-12's and subsequently placed them into JonBenet's underwear drawer, specifically for her personal use.

So if Patsy knew the size-12's had already been removed from the house, why would she state she had placed them into JonBenet's underwear drawer?

Specifically when the BPD pointed out to her:
Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt

1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
2 aware that these were the size of panties
3 that she was wearing, and this has been
4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
6 that?
7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of
9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

Why should Patsy lie when she knew there were no size-12's in the house. She could even have embroidered it and suggested that the intruder removed the size-12's.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

Ok, and the RN written??

Sorry- I meant to put that last.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't think JB was put in the wineceller while still alive. I believe the urine release happened at the moment of death, and she was on her stomach for that. This is in keeping with the garrote knot being at the back of her neck, and the rather large bruise on her rear shoulder, which could have been caused by whoever was pulling that garrote kneeling or pressing against her as she lay on her stomach. Dead people don't bruise, so that happened while she was alive. We already know she was still alive when strangled from the presence of the petechiae in her eyelids and on her neck and from the deep red color of the ligature furrow.
There were also urine stains on the basement carpet right near the paint tote. I see the garrote being made for an already unconscious (from the head bash) JB, placed on her stomach on the basement carpet in the area just outside the WC. She was strangled, died, and then her urine voided. Then she was placed in the WC on her back on top of the white blanket (which had been put down first) which was then pulled up around her torso. The duct tape was put on her at some point after death and while on her back.
That's the way I see it.

 

[Toltec]

I don't think JB was put in the wineceller while still alive. I believe the urine release happened at the moment of death, and she was on her stomach for that. This is in keeping with the garrote knot being at the back of her neck, and the rather large bruise on her rear shoulder, which could have been caused by whoever was pulling that garrote kneeling or pressing against her as she lay on her stomach. Dead people don't bruise, so that happened while she was alive. We already know she was still alive when strangled from the presence of the petechiae in her eyelids and on her neck and from the deep red color of the ligature furrow.
There were also urine stains on the basement carpet right near the paint tote. I see the garrote being made for an already unconscious (from the head bash) JB, placed on her stomach on the basement carpet in the area just outside the WC. She was strangled, died, and then her urine voided. Then she was placed in the WC on her back on top of the white blanket (which had been put down first) which was then pulled up around her torso. The duct tape was put on her at some point after death and while on her back.
That's the way I see it.

In the book PMPT...there was petechiae in the surface of the heart and lungs which suggested death by suffocation. Could she have been suffocated by the pillow found in the kitchen before the cord was tied around her neck?

 

[gngr~snap]

It's been sooo long but I thought PR bought 2 packs 1 for JBR in her size and 1 for her sister PD's step-daughter for a Christmas gift. IMO she put JBR panties in drawer and the size 12... 6 remaining were removed, perhaps when JR left to g to the post office prior to body discovery. Maybe in a brief case. I dunno
MOO

 

[gngr~snap]

In the book PMPT...there was petechiae in the surface of the heart and lungs which suggested death by suffocation. Could she have been suffocated by the pillow found in the kitchen before the cord was tied around her neck?

usually that causes bruising and cuts on the inside of gums. But not always. IMO she was comatose from the head injury. and the
ligature was chosen over calling an ambulance.
MOO

 

[DeeDee249]

It's been sooo long but I thought PR bought 2 packs 1 for JBR in her size and 1 for her sister PD's step-daughter for a Christmas gift. IMO she put JBR panties in drawer and the size 12... 6 remaining were removed, perhaps when JR left to g to the post office prior to body discovery. Maybe in a brief case. I dunno
MOO

JR never went to the post office. The home had a mail slot in the front door. The mail was delivered right there. He didn't have to even leave the house for his mail. It was detective LA who mistakenly said that she thought JR went to "get his mail" because she couldn't find him for almost 2 hours and saw him looking at some mail. She was very wrong to have said it, and all these years later we posters still see people under the mistaken notion that he went to the post office. Not a likely thing for the parent of a (though to be) kidnapped child who was supposed to be waiting for the kidnapper to call.
Patsy said she didn't remember if she bought one or two sets of Bloomies panties. I can't believe she'd get a set for her niece and not for her own daughter, but regardless, NO Bloomies panties in ANY size were found in the home. Panties are small and thin. The Rs left the house wearing winter coats, Patsy carrying her handbag. It must be assumed they also had overnight bags because they were going to stay with friends. Patsy's sister raided the house, filling more than one police car with things. None were searched. JR asked for his golf bag which was stored RIGHT OUTSIDE the wineceller where JB's body was. This despite it being December in Colorado. Not the time or place to need a golf bag. Let's face it- there were dozens of ways to have gotten those panties out if the house. Police searched drawers, laundry chutes, bedrooms. They found EVERY OTHER PAIR of JB's (fecal-stained) panties. If they didn't find any Bloomies panties- they weren't there.

 

[claudicici]

In the book PMPT...there was petechiae in the surface of the heart and lungs which suggested death by suffocation. Could she have been suffocated by the pillow found in the kitchen before the cord was tied around her neck?

There was a pillow found in the kitchen?? I did not know this.
I always suspected that JonBenet was made unconscious in the kitchen,while eating the pineapple.
I think the book/play "the prime of Miss Brodie" that PR read and performed in high school and was one of her favorite books may really be significant as suggested by other posters
" To Sandy the unfamiliar pineapple had the authentic taste and appearance of happiness and she focused her small eyes closely on the pale gold cubes before she scooped them up in her spoon, and she thought the sharp taste on her tongue was that of a special happiness, which was nothing to do with eating, and was different from the happiness of play that one enjoyed unawares."
I did not know about the pillow though.