If JonBenet's death was an accident...

  • #181
I don't think JB was put in the wineceller while still alive. I believe the urine release happened at the moment of death, and she was on her stomach for that. This is in keeping with the garrote knot being at the back of her neck, and the rather large bruise on her rear shoulder, which could have been caused by whoever was pulling that garrote kneeling or pressing against her as she lay on her stomach. Dead people don't bruise, so that happened while she was alive. We already know she was still alive when strangled from the presence of the petechiae in her eyelids and on her neck and from the deep red color of the ligature furrow.
There were also urine stains on the basement carpet right near the paint tote. I see the garrote being made for an already unconscious (from the head bash) JB, placed on her stomach on the basement carpet in the area just outside the WC. She was strangled, died, and then her urine voided. Then she was placed in the WC on her back on top of the white blanket (which had been put down first) which was then pulled up around her torso. The duct tape was put on her at some point after death and while on her back.
That's the way I see it.

DeeDee249,
I don't think JB was put in the wineceller while still alive.
I tend to agree with you. But it cannot be ruled out.

Then she was placed in the WC on her back on top of the white blanket (which had been put down first) which was then pulled up around her torso.
Why should this placement also have included the bloodstained barbie nightgown and doll?

Assuming the size-12's are clean on JonBenet then why the necessity to remove the size-6's but not the nightgown or doll?

The duct tape was put on her at some point after death and while on her back.
This along with her nylon cord restraints indicates direct staging, something no intruder needs to do.
 
  • #182
JR never went to the post office. The home had a mail slot in the front door. The mail was delivered right there. He didn't have to even leave the house for his mail. It was detective LA who mistakenly said that she thought JR went to "get his mail" because she couldn't find him for almost 2 hours and saw him looking at some mail. She was very wrong to have said it, and all these years later we posters still see people under the mistaken notion that he went to the post office. Not a likely thing for the parent of a (though to be) kidnapped child who was supposed to be waiting for the kidnapper to call.
Patsy said she didn't remember if she bought one or two sets of Bloomies panties. I can't believe she'd get a set for her niece and not for her own daughter, but regardless, NO Bloomies panties in ANY size were found in the home. Panties are small and thin. The Rs left the house wearing winter coats, Patsy carrying her handbag. It must be assumed they also had overnight bags because they were going to stay with friends. Patsy's sister raided the house, filling more than one police car with things. None were searched. JR asked for his golf bag which was stored RIGHT OUTSIDE the wineceller where JB's body was. This despite it being December in Colorado. Not the time or place to need a golf bag. Let's face it- there were dozens of ways to have gotten those panties out if the house. Police searched drawers, laundry chutes, bedrooms. They found EVERY OTHER PAIR of JB's (fecal-stained) panties. If they didn't find any Bloomies panties- they weren't there.

DeeDee249,
Salient point. So why would anyone wish to remove an allegedly dead girls underwear, particularly when her body has been relocated, severing any link to a prior crime-scene?

.
 
  • #183
In the book PMPT...there was petechiae in the surface of the heart and lungs which suggested death by suffocation. Could she have been suffocated by the pillow found in the kitchen before the cord was tied around her neck?

Toltec,

Yes, and this would place a different interpretation on events. Would it become, is it 1st degree murder in the USA, e.g. deliberated murder?

So is it head bash followed by the pillow then the garrote for visible effect, or is it the pillow, followed by the head bash , then the garrote?

Coroner Meyer's autopsy report concludes death as resulting from a combination of suffocation and head injury. He does not indicate a preference for a particular sequence.


.
 
  • #184
Interesting exercise. I'll go first!
I am skipping the "taken from bed" because I don't think she went to bed.

Taken to basement
Sexual assault
Bloodstains on nightgown (if she was wearing it at the time)
Head bash
Clothing rearranged
Cord tied on neck
Stick tied to cord
Strangled
Cord tied to wrists
Tape on mouth
Wrapped in blanket

What purpose would it have served to have taken off one pair of panties and put on a larger pair? I assume you would agree that the "previous" panties were not on her when she was assaulted, so they would not be stained?? Why would the parents have taken the trouble to put on the correct day of the week (Wednesday) but not the correct size?


I just noticed the picture of the bloomies in their package posted by cynic. I see that the middle pair have been replaced upsidedown? This has to be the Wednesday pair. I believe that she could easily choose the Wednesday pair. Certainly she knew that they each had the day of the week written on them, and Wednesday is the only W day. She was six and was familiar with letters and numbers, it's not as if she was blind!! I would be very surprised if a child of her age with no mental retardation who was presented with the days of the week, written in sequence from Sunday to Saturday, could not find the Wednesday pair!!

I don't believe that she was ever re-dressed, but assuming she was, there seems to be no more reason for the parents to have done it rather than an IDI. Perhaps even more, as an IDI might want a souvenir.
 
  • #185
What purpose would it have served to have taken off one pair of panties and put on a larger pair? I assume you would agree that the "previous" panties were not on her when she was assaulted, so they would not be stained?? Why would the parents have taken the trouble to put on the correct day of the week (Wednesday) but not the correct size?


I just noticed the picture of the bloomies in their package posted by cynic. I see that the middle pair have been replaced upsidedown? This has to be the Wednesday pair. I believe that she could easily choose the Wednesday pair. Certainly she knew that they each had the day of the week written on them, and Wednesday is the only W day. She was six and was familiar with letters and numbers, it's not as if she was blind!! I would be very surprised if a child of her age with no mental retardation who was presented with the days of the week, written in sequence from Sunday to Saturday, could not find the Wednesday pair!!

I don't believe that she was ever re-dressed, but assuming she was, there seems to be no more reason for the parents to have done it rather than an IDI. Perhaps even more, as an IDI might want a souvenir.

Are you suggesting JonBenet put the size 12 Wednesday underwear on herself? Where did she get them? She was in her bedroom when she dressed herself to go to the Whites. There were no size 12 panties found in her panty drawer. Was Patsy in the room with her? Where were JB and Patsy when they argued over the red turtleneck?

JonBenet was not wearing those size 12 panties when she dressed into her Gap outfit. LE would have found the rest of the DOW panties in her bedroom. JonBenet took off her play pants in her bathroom...the soiled ones. If she put the size 12 undies on then, they would have had "skid marks" on them.

Experts say JonBenet was molested just prior to death. They also say the paintbrush was inserted into her vagina prior to it being broken to fashion the garrote.

When you think of JonBenet being wiped down...would the cloth used contain both blood and fecal stains? Is that why her underwear and cloth were disposed of?
 
  • #186
Are you suggesting JonBenet put the size 12 Wednesday underwear on herself? Where did she get them? She was in her bedroom when she dressed herself to go to the Whites. There were no size 12 panties found in her panty drawer. Was Patsy in the room with her? Where were JB and Patsy when they argued over the red turtleneck?

She got them from where ever her Mother was packing for the trip (the spare bedroom?).

JonBenet was not wearing those size 12 panties when she dressed into her Gap outfit.

You seem very sure about that? How can that be?

LE would have found the rest of the DOW panties in her bedroom.

No, they weren't in the drawer, but had been packed.

JonBenet took off her play pants in her bathroom...the soiled ones. If she put the size 12 undies on then, they would have had "skid marks" on them.

Soiled as in pooped upon? Says who??

Experts say JonBenet was molested just prior to death.
Yes.

They also say the paintbrush was inserted into her vagina prior to it being broken to fashion the garrote.

No, unless you have a source outside of this forum? The material found called 'befringent material' hasn't been identified as far as I know.

When you think of JonBenet being wiped down...would the cloth used contain both blood and fecal stains? Is that why her underwear and cloth were disposed of?

Again, what purpose would this serve? The underwear she was found in had blood stains and was urine soaked. There were no fecal stains identified in the autopsy.
 
  • #187
Heyya MF.



iirc PR recollects last placing them in the panty drawer in the bathroom.


http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7107&page=3


11 Q. And I will just state a fact

12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties

13 taken out of, by the police, out of

14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is

15 that where she kept -

16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

17 Q. -- where you were describing that

18 they were just put in that drawer?

19 A. Yes.




Are the bloomie tags part of the crime scene evidence?


[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7107"]The Gigantic (Girls Size 12-14) "Bloomies" Underwear Found On JonBenet - Forums For Justice[/ame]

The plactic tie that secures the package would be difficult for a child to
break without using scissors.
 
  • #188
Heyya MF.



iirc PR recollects last placing them in the panty drawer in the bathroom.


http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7107&page=3


11 Q. And I will just state a fact

12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties

13 taken out of, by the police, out of

14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is

15 that where she kept -

16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

17 Q. -- where you were describing that

18 they were just put in that drawer?

19 A. Yes.




Are the bloomie tags part of the crime scene evidence?


The Gigantic (Girls Size 12-14) "Bloomies" Underwear Found On JonBenet - Forums For Justice

The plactic tie that secures the package would be difficult for a child to
break without using scissors.

Yes, I'm aware of this, but she also said she was packing for the holidays on Christmas day. Are you suggesting she wouldn't have taken any underwear for JBR??
 
  • #189
Heyya MF.

I'm not aware as to what PR may have or not have packed and in what time frame.
Just reviewing the FFJ bloomie thread and thought I'd mention as to where PR last saw the bloomies.
 
  • #190
DeeDee249,
Salient point. So why would anyone wish to remove an allegedly dead girls underwear, particularly when her body has been relocated, severing any link to a prior crime-scene?

.

They were the blood-stained panties, so that was the reason for removing them. It was always the intention to hide the sexual assault- exactly the opposite of what a pedophile killer would do. A stranger/intruder has no need to hide the assault or stage the crime at all, no need to wipe the blood from her thighs and pubic area. No need to hide the body in the most inaccessible room in the house. But family members covering for each other have a very pressing need to do all of these things.
 
  • #191
Yes, I'm aware of this, but she also said she was packing for the holidays on Christmas day. Are you suggesting she wouldn't have taken any underwear for JBR??


Are you seriously suggesting Patsy packed size 12 day of the week undies, for JonBenet, who had sized 4 and 6 sized undies in her drawer? 'dreamin' takes me away to where I want to be.'. MF that makes no rational or logical sense, what so ever!
 
  • #192
Heyya MF.

I'm not aware as to what PR may have or not have packed and in what time frame.
Just reviewing the FFJ bloomie thread and thought I'd mention as to where PR last saw the bloomies.

Well, I think they asked her if JBR would have worn them herself and it appears that PR thought so. They were trying to establish if the panties came from the house or if an IDI brought them.

Now, if they had asked her if she had packed panties for JBR to take on holidays maybe they would have found out where the size 12 panties were as well as all the other panties that weren't either too small or stained.

Doesn't this make sense to you??
 
  • #193
They were the blood-stained panties, so that was the reason for removing them. It was always the intention to hide the sexual assault- exactly the opposite of what a pedophile killer would do. A stranger/intruder has no need to hide the assault or stage the crime at all, no need to wipe the blood from her thighs and pubic area. No need to hide the body in the most inaccessible room in the house. But family members covering for each other have a very pressing need to do all of these things.

Well it depends on which RDI theory you subscribe to. I've heard it said here that the parents used the paintbrush to injure her to COVER UP prior sexual abuse, and in fact this was the sole intention of the murder as well. Now you are saying that they were trying to hide the sexual assault that occurred that night by changing panties. If as you say, and intruder wouldn't need to hide this, then I expect the parents made a mistake, as they were trying to make it look like an intruder, but were doing the exact opposite of what an intruder would do?? This isn't making any sense at all.
 
  • #194
Sure, I get it.

Within PR responses, there's the same leaway for speculation IDI wise. The 'truth' of the matter isn't bound to the framework of the questioning.
 
  • #195
Are you seriously suggesting Patsy packed size 12 day of the week undies, for JonBenet, who had sized 4 and 6 sized undies in her drawer? 'dreamin' takes me away to where I want to be.'. MF that makes no rational or logical sense, what so ever!

SunnieRN,

LOL, is that seditious comment, or free speech? You have to ask where is the beef?

Request evidence that demonstrates Patsy packed size-12's!

We have evidence from BPD that no size-12's were discovered anywhere in the house.

Although not inconsequential. The ransom note and wine-cellar location can be largely factored out of any theory. Why, because both are staged events, other than reading over the RN, I've managed quite nicely without it.

If you accept Coroner Meyer's autopsy report's findings then an acute sexual assault took place prior to JonBenet's death. It is likely that it was this event that led to her eventual death. This assault is distinct from any staged assault, which may form part of the wine-cellar staging.

So did this assault take place in the basement or some other room upstairs? Toltec refers to a pillow in the kitchen, the flashlight was also found there. So does this suggest the kitchen or breakfast bar as the molestation setting or the place where a cleanup began?

My preference is for another bedroom and top of the list is John's, followed by all the others. Remember John showered the next day, and changed his clothes, only Patsy did not, ruling herself in and him out.

Re-iterating, just because JonBenet's body was found in the wine-cellar does not mean that any prior assaut or injury took place there, or even in the basement per se. This is probably the location for the staging, and not much else.

JonBenet may have lain comatose upstairs, then been transferred to the basement.


.
 
  • #196
Could someone point me to where I can read about the pillow found in the kitchen? It would seem to me that this would be huge evidence. Whose pillow was it? Which bedroom was missing a pillow or was it even a bed pillow? We know it was not JonBenet's bed pillow as it is shown on her bed. Also, it would seem that touch dna could also be a factor if any were found on the pillow. If it is a sofa pillow it points to a new location for the head bash or the molestation, imo.
TIA
Becky
 
  • #197
Could someone point me to where I can read about the pillow found in the kitchen? It would seem to me that this would be huge evidence. Whose pillow was it? Which bedroom was missing a pillow or was it even a bed pillow? We know it was not JonBenet's bed pillow as it is shown on her bed. Also, it would seem that touch dna could also be a factor if any were found on the pillow. If it is a sofa pillow it points to a new location for the head bash or the molestation, imo.
TIA
Becky

joeskidbeck,

In the book PMPT...there was petechiae in the surface of the heart and lungs which suggested death by suffocation. Could she have been suffocated by the pillow found in the kitchen before the cord was tied around her neck?


.
 
  • #198
Do you have an actual source for the pillow information, like an article or a book?
 
  • #199
Could someone point me to where I can read about the pillow found in the kitchen? It would seem to me that this would be huge evidence. Whose pillow was it? Which bedroom was missing a pillow or was it even a bed pillow? We know it was not JonBenet's bed pillow as it is shown on her bed. Also, it would seem that touch dna could also be a factor if any were found on the pillow. If it is a sofa pillow it points to a new location for the head bash or the molestation, imo.
TIA
Becky
Then we showed him photos of the crime scene. “Wait,” Lee said. “The pillow in the kitchen in this picture doesn’t show up in that one. Why?” His eyebrows rose in wonder when he learned how things had been moved and how many people had trampled through the place before the photographers took their pictures. What he was viewing was not necessarily how things looked on the day of the murder. Lee said nothing but made a note.

We went through numerous pieces of evidence—the body, the clothing, the first officers’ observations, no forced entry, the ransom note, ink and pen.

Lee suggested that the cellar room in which the body was found was not necessarily the location of the primary attack. He also wondered about the presence of the pink nightgown discovered near the victim. A kidnapper, he ventured, probably would not bring a victim’s favorite piece of clothing along with a dead body.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 166
 
  • #200
Yes, I'm aware of this, but she also said she was packing for the holidays on Christmas day. Are you suggesting she wouldn't have taken any underwear for JBR??

I doubt that LE would not search the suitcases...there were clothes strewn all over JAR's bed.
 

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