If you believe the Ramsey's did it please answer this for me...

[Anita Richman]

UKGuy--very nice post---and while many feel Patsy could not have done this,mothers lose lose it all time--even my own loving mother recenly admitted that one time when we were kids,my younger brother was giving my mother a hard time,not wanting to get dressed after she changed my bother's diapers,hewas crying like crazy--my mother said she felt,seriously,like CHOKING him--I said why on earth would you feel that way? she said "he was BAITING me"--my brother was only 1 yr old at the time--,and we grew up in a nice upper middle class town where the avg homeprice is now well over a million dollars---I know there's a big difference between thnking of doing something and actuallydoing it,but my point is still valid

Peter, that's a great point. Lots of parents "think of" shaking/hitting/etc. their child in moments of great stress or frustration. The difference between being a normal, frustrated parent and a (accidental) murderer is that ability to control oneself and restrain oneself.

I think Patsy lost it in a moment of rage...over who knows what (bedwetting, maybe JBR wet her pants in the car--did they check for urine stains in the vehicle?) and struck or shook JBR, hitting her head on the porcelain tub and knocked her unconcious. The cover up commenced.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Warsaw:

I agree with Steve Thomas. I do not believe this child was being sexually molested by a male. I believe there was some sort of physical punishment on behalf of Patsy Ramsey over bed wetting. Patsy Ramsey was OBSESSED with her daughter. I think Patsy snapped that night and then staged an elaborate cover up with the help of John Ramsey. Although I haven’t decided just when his role started. I have a hard time thinking he would have gone along with the silly ransom note, but I have no doubt in my mind that Patsy wrote it. Patsy’s fingerprints were found on the bowl of pineapple which was the last thing JB ate. Patsy’ jacket fibers were found intertwined with the garrote rope. Patsy’s paint brush was used for the garrote handle. Patsy’s jacket fibers were found on the sticky side of the duct tape. That duct tape was only sold at McCaulkins Hardware store in Boulder. Patsy Ramsey purchased items that were the exact same price as the rope and tape prior to the murder. Burkes pocket knife was used to cut the rope and only Patsy and Linda Hoffman Pugh knew where it was located. Patsy was the only one that appeared to have been up all night and was dressed in the same clothes as the night before. The flashlight left on the counter top was wiped down and left in plain view. The Ramsey’s owned one just like it but couldn’t locate it for authorities. Both the Ramsey’s refused to cooperate with police. John Ramsey asked for his golf clubs. Pam Paugh was busy removing everything she could get her hands on from the home. And the biggest tall tale sign is John Ramsey calling for his plane only 30 minutes after finding his daughter murdered, hiring lawyers and a PR firm, even for his ex wife and telling Melinda’s boyfriend at the time that he discovered the body prior to when actually did discover it. Hiring their own lie detector experts and REFUSING to exhume the body of JonBenet to prove Lou Smit’s stun gun theory. Need I say more?

I think Patsy Ramsey shows sings of narcissism and psychosis. After surviving a bout with cancer, the stress of the holiday’s while trying to pack and get ready for an early morning trip, JB awoke after wetting the bed and that lead to an altercation between mother and daughter. Patsy’s panicked and hid JB in the wine cellar and sat and wrote the ransom note. The crime scene was staged.

I wonder why with the all the publicity John Mark Karr got, especially regarding his handwriting samples, WHY haven’t any of the major shows, Court TV, MSNBC News, or Larry King Live (Ramsey lover) show the comparisons of the ransom note to that of Patsy Ramsey? WHY are we all still talking about John Mark Karr???

 

[Anita Richman]

Warsaw:

I agree with Steve Thomas. I do not believe this child was being sexually molested by a male. I believe there was some sort of physical punishment on behalf of Patsy Ramsey over bed wetting. Patsy Ramsey was OBSESSED with her daughter. I think Patsy snapped that night and then staged an elaborate cover up with the help of John Ramsey. Although I haven’t decided just when his role started. I have a hard time thinking he would have gone along with the silly ransom note, but I have no doubt in my mind that Patsy wrote it. Patsy’s fingerprints were found on the bowl of pineapple which was the last thing JB ate. Patsy’ jacket fibers were found intertwined with the garrote rope. Patsy’s paint brush was used for the garrote handle. Patsy’s jacket fibers were found on the sticky side of the duct tape. That duct tape was only sold at McCaulkins Hardware store in Boulder. Patsy Ramsey purchased items that were the exact same price as the rope and tape prior to the murder. Burkes pocket knife was used to cut the rope and only Patsy and Linda Hoffman Pugh knew where it was located. Patsy was the only one that appeared to have been up all night and was dressed in the same clothes as the night before. The flashlight left on the counter top was wiped down and left in plain view. The Ramsey’s owned one just like it but couldn’t locate it for authorities. Both the Ramsey’s refused to cooperate with police. John Ramsey asked for his golf clubs. Pam Paugh was busy removing everything she could get her hands on from the home. And the biggest tall tale sign is John Ramsey calling for his plane only 30 minutes after finding his daughter murdered, hiring lawyers and a PR firm, even for his ex wife and telling Melinda’s boyfriend at the time that he discovered the body prior to when actually did discover it. Hiring their own lie detector experts and REFUSING to exhume the body of JonBenet to prove Lou Smit’s stun gun theory. Need I say more?

I think Patsy Ramsey shows sings of narcissism and psychosis. After surviving a bout with cancer, the stress of the holiday’s while trying to pack and get ready for an early morning trip, JB awoke after wetting the bed and that lead to an altercation between mother and daughter. Patsy’s panicked and hid JB in the wine cellar and sat and wrote the ransom note. The crime scene was staged.

I wonder why with the all the publicity John Mark Karr got, especially regarding his handwriting samples, WHY haven’t any of the major shows, Court TV, MSNBC News, or Larry King Live (Ramsey lover) show the comparisons of the ransom note to that of Patsy Ramsey? WHY are we all still talking about John Mark Karr???

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Didn't Donald Foster, the handwriting expert who identified the Unibomber, come to the conclusion that Patsy wrote the ransom note?

 

[BloodshotEye]

Very interesting scenarios, NuisanceP. I admit, I am on the fence having coffee with the others :banghead:

Unexplained Last Calls to the Doctor/School Nurse Visit.
Yes! thank you! Agreed. Those last calls to the doctor, and the visit to the school nurse (I didn't know about the nurse visit), has always struck me as very odd. I think Patsy thought something was not right, as well.

However, if Patsy was doing something as punishment, (don't really care to elaborate), I speculate that Patsy would not have been so willing to take her to the doctor all of those times, and towards the end, to make those last calls. If PR was hiding something, we might have seen evidence of her taking JBR to more than one pediatrician. We don't see that, as far as I can tell. So, I am hesitant to accept this theory, but am open to the remote possisbility.

I wonder if, rather than PR "abusing" JBR, PR might have simply been fed up with the daily/nightly (or whatever) task of getting the bed and JBR cleaned up. Maybe sometimes, PR didn't use a lot of patience, and made a rather hasty and heavy handed/quick pass at the "clean up". Not such a bad idea, if a mother suspects that her child is not motivated to work on bladder control, because - hey, someone will get her cleaned up good as new. So I am open to this scenario, being one possible reason why someone might extrapolate beyond what might have been Patsy's typical routine. I also want to keep in mind, that a child who wets/soils their bed/clothes, is likely to have some other skin irritations in that "area", if they remain in their wet underwear for a period of time, like overnight.

Someone Else in JBR's Life?
Whether or not someone else (friend, family member) had inappropriate contact with JBR, which caused this bed wetting anxiety, as you suggest - is quite possible indeed. Patsy naively trotted JBR around the pageant scene, enjoying the attention that both of them received. Regrettably, I think Patsy wanted to pack in a lifetime of mother-daughter bonding and activities, into JBR's tiny life. Yet I think Patsy was no fool, when it came to the reality of her life expectancy. She was diagnosed in 1993. I think this is why everything Patsy did, was so over-the-top. Pageants, Christmas decorations, travel, all of it. The clock was ticking. I think Patsy was completely oblivious to the danger of having a little "pageant princess", be the object of so many pairs of eyes. Jealousy and desire, are words that describe the danger that comes to mind.

Upon Discovery of JBR, Patsy Called 911, not JR
This is another incident, that steers me away from Patsy; I always thought this was very odd. Even Patsy herself, said that she wondered if the individual(s) were "watching", and would know they called the police; the ransom letter said not to call anyone. She wondered to herself, "Should I have called the police? They said not to call" This is not exact quote, just general idea of the thought she related within the context of an interview that I believe was conducted by BPD.

Yet JR said to call 911, so she called. It kind of gave me the sense of the dymanic between PR and JR. PR was kind of "voice actiated", and may not have ever questioned JR's logic or explanation for things. And then of course we all know, that JR set about calling all of those other people. WTF? Sorry to be so rude, but for Cryin'OutLoud, wouldn't he have wanted to be low key - and at least "appear" to follow the instructions of the ransom letter? That was, and remains very odd to me.

I surely would not have wanted to risk appearing as though I disregarded ransom instructions. It would seem that:
1. JR knew there was no kidnapping. Which, at a very elemental level, suggests that...
2. JR knew that "something else" had happened. Which suggests that...
3. JR knew who might have done this, such that,
4. JR engaged in what some call a public relations/legal counsel backfire, and others call "obstruction" and cover up.

After seeing how freakishly similar JMKarr's writing was, to the ransom letter, I am not ready to pronounce the author of the RL to be Patsy. But I am open to the possibility (of JR demanding that she write it, to save the family from certain destruction).

 

[sharkeyes]

This crime is no big mystery.


I believe it was an accident too. What led up to the accident I am not sure.

Patsy was a classic narcissist. She needed to make this accident look like a big crime. Making her the "victim." The mother of a kidnapped beauty queen.

Patsy was ready for her close up when she called the cops.

It was an accident. Patsy was in on the cover up.

Like I said, very simple. Let the evidence lead you to the conclusion.

The first thing you need to do is understand that parents are capable of doing HORRIBLE things to their children. Whether they have prior abuse or not.

We don't know what goes on behind close doors.

The fact that Patsy dressed JonBenet up like a hooker and she recently started defecating and wetting her bed again is a strong indication that something was happening to her.

Simple..Simple..Simple...

Very well put! Ditto!

 

[newtv]

Eeew.

hi handsome

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Well put Tricia. And yes Anita that was Donald Foster

 

[Vet4Bush]

I gotta believe that it was an accidental death but there were perhaps other circumstances that would have made the Ramseys look like unfit parents so they covered it up to make it look like an outside killer/perv did it. The note was clearly written by Patsy. The Ramsey's were the principle suspects by the police for many years, perhaps still, but the DA's office is political and incompetent, as we have seen so often, and John has used his money and political friends to sue detractors with success and the DA's have been no match.

 

[Cassata11]

If JonBenet was killed as a result of Patsy losing it, wouldn't JonBenet have many more marks on her body? If a mother went into a rampage I picture things like grabbing the child by her arms, shaking her, slapping her across the face, there would be many areas that would be bruised from many different types of blows wouldn't there?

OB

Interesting thought. I am sure there are many "mom's" out here that agree that even if we grab our kids arms in anger, we can leave marks. Although I don't rule out the accident possibility, I would think there would be more proof of Pasty "going off".

 

[newtv]

Its not that I am not aware of what parents do to their children behind closed doors-and all the ugliness of it-I am not ignorant on this topic-I do not think these parents did this to their child-there is a big difference between understanding domestic terrorism and believing these particular parents did it..
I dont believe they could get away with it so long and not one crack appears anywhere-no disgruntled ex-lovers or friends of the children now grown up, etc No turning on each other ever-not one slip-no way they pulled off the perfect crime..and then if u think they did-then its also possible that someone else did..
Its offensive when some of u think that to not find the ranmseys guilty is to not understand murder-violence-sexual exploitation, etc.
As well the ramseys win every court case they set out to win-over and over again they prevail..i just dont think u can fool all of the people all of the time..something gives.
The objective things that point to them are: if there truly were no footsteps in or out..(the ramseys came in-so i dont understand that-if there was a driveway who is to say thats not what he came in and out of?)
That noone else has been convicted after so many people being checked out..thats not the usual way things work but it still doesnt mean they did it.
Statistics favor the parent doing it..this is a fact.
But so much of the other stuff is so hate filled when discussed that its subjective-including it was subjective by steve thomas..he sure didnt want to look like a guy who went the distance with a lame theory.
I think steve was sincere-i think he got in over his head bigtime..his book is filled with bias..as is the case with everyone who has written one..
I could even buy into her being sexually abused if it were not so extreme..its as if u think john became a depraved animal in the middle of the night and that it wasnt the first time.
Its extreme and I dont take in the extremes as objective-it doesnt mean they didnt do it-it just means to me they are still not proven to be viable suspects cuz nothing has come up that sticks against them.
It hasnt with all the others either..so there is reasonable doubt-and in fact there is alot of it.
This is a case where it really cannot be proven and the steve thomas's of the world are as much to blame as anyone..there are no hero's in this fiasco.
I also do not believe patsy would go into a killing rage because she soiled her bed-it happened many other times and she wasnt killed.
I also have a hard time believing that she would blame the child for sexual exploitation by the father..that doesnt make sense.
That happens when a women is tremendously insecure-and dependant on the man-she could have left him and told noone why..it is just with so little real knowledge of these people except rumor and what others who were fingered say, (and why wouldnt they-they dont want to be fingered if they are innocent people either-yet they have no problem blaming their own choice of suspects).
There are no people that do not have a vested interest in the outcome that accuse them.
And the divide is across the nation-some are certain they did it-others on the fence-others cant buy it.
We have opinions and they are not from ignorance when one of us decides there is not the substantial evidence against them that others insist there is.

 

[BloodshotEye]

Vet4Bush: Help me out here. BloodShotEye here...on the fence.
When you suggest "accident", do you mean like it was a slip and fall, or something like a rage, where Patsy deliberately bashed her head with something, so as to nearly split her skull in two halves? Or do you mean that JBR died by accident, during some sick act.

Don't quite know what people mean by "accident".
Thanks.

 

[southcitymom]

Vet4Bush: Help me out here. BloodShotEye here...on the fence.
When you suggest "accident", do you mean like it was a slip and fall, or something like a rage, where Patsy deliberately bashed her head with something, so as to nearly split her skull in two halves? Or do you mean that JBR died by accident, during some sick act.

Don't quite know what people mean by "accident".
Thanks.

I know when I say accident in connection with this casre I mean that no one woke up and said I am going to go bash that little girl's head in and then stangle her.

For me - and I lean towards RDI, I think that someone got very angry at JBR and struck her in rage and this (the head blow) resulted in her inevitable death.

Some people perceive accidental as, someone was playing sex games (erotic asphyxia) with JBR and got carried away and strangled her when they didn't mean to and this killer her.

I don't think for a second that if JBR had fallen and cracked her skull open by accident that anyone would have done the additional things to her body or written a ransom note, etc....

 

[Vet4Bush]

I don't think it was premeditated. I think PR probably knocked the child down on the floor and the child hit her head on the floor or some such incident. I think also John used Tracey to seek out a "likely" perv for a "patsy".

 

[Maybe So]

MaybeSo,you are missing the point--those women are in prison,not in a mental health center--juries found them guilty--juries didn't buy any excuse for what they did--and they certainly didn't buy any alleged abuse,mental health issues as mitigating factors--sorry

I think you are missing my point. I didn't mean that any parent who ever hurt their child will have shown to be completely insane or not responsible for their actions. Only that they will have had a history of mental or emotional or domestic problems that were pretty obvious and that were affecting their lives and their relationships before and after the crimes.

Diane Downs had lots of emotional issues....so did Susan Smith for that matter.

Show me any reasonably normal parents who had it pretty much altogether, good job, solid relationship (not perfect), plenty of money, no history of child abuse or neglect, no domestic disturbance calls to their house, no criminal backgrounds, no one had post partum depression or spychosis but who suddenly killed their child on purpose with a bash on the head AND a garotte or even who when their child died by accident then garotted her to finish her off and shoved a paint brush into her for good measure.

I don't buy the garotting, violation with the paintbrush (and possible stun gun marks) to be in line with these parents personalities....even for cover up purposes...not even to protect Burke, who I doubt was involved at all.

If it was just the head bash and the ransom note I might be more convinced that it was the Ramseys.

I do concede that the note resembles PRs writing and that some things do point to them. But that is not a first in the history of crime....evidence seemingly pointing to the wrong person.

I can't for the life of me imagine the mother of a dead child writing that note hastily and remembering those movie references off the top of her head in a state of panic or grief.

JMHO

 

[PaperDoll]

I don't know what happened in the house that night. I don't, however, believe there was any intruder. There were 3 people in the house and all 3 were named RAMSEY. My gut tells me that JBR was being sexually abused and I'm going to say by her daddy.. Yep, happens more often than one thinks. I also believe Patsy wrote the note. Who killed JBR? I'm not sure. I lean toward Patsy whether it be an accident or jealously. I can't really say.. All evidence points to the Ramseys, and yes, they live in the house so it's hard to prove who did what by evidence and DNA alone.. To me, the reason why this case wasn't solved, because the LE, or whoever it is that determines this, didn't know who to proscute JR, PR or BR? No one was talking... :silenced: :twocents:

 

[LinasK]

Its not that I am not aware of what parents do to their children behind closed doors-and all the ugliness of it-I am not ignorant on this topic-I do not think these parents did this to their child-there is a big difference between understanding domestic terrorism and believing these particular parents did it..

Its offensive when some of u think that to not find the ranmseys guilty is to not understand murder-violence-sexual exploitation, etc.
As well the ramseys win every court case they set out to win-over and over again they prevail..i just dont think u can fool all of the people all of the time..something gives.
Statistics favor the parent doing it..this is a fact.

I could even buy into her being sexually abused if it were not so extreme..its as if u think john became a depraved animal in the middle of the night and that it wasnt the first time.
Its extreme and I dont take in the extremes as objective-it doesnt mean they didnt do it-it just means to me they are still not proven to be viable suspects cuz nothing has come up that sticks against them.
This is a case where it really cannot be proven and the steve thomas's of the world are as much to blame as anyone..there are no hero's in this fiasco.
I also have a hard time believing that she would blame the child for sexual exploitation by the father..that doesnt make sense.
That happens when a women is tremendously insecure-and dependant on the man-she could have left him and told noone why..it is just with so little real knowledge of these people except rumor and what others who were fingered say, (and why wouldnt they-they dont want to be fingered if they are innocent people either-yet they have no problem blaming their own choice of suspects).

We have opinions and they are not from ignorance when one of us decides there is not the substantial evidence against them that others insist there is.

New, I know you are no stranger to domestic violence. That's why your claim of Ramsey innocence surprised me.
I think Patsy was an extremely insecure woman who didn't feel she could leave John and be an independent woman, she's the type who needs a man! Plus, my own personal theory is another one I had heard rumors about here- that her own father Don Paugh had abused her, therefore she didn't defend her daughter. That's not how I'd react if my daughter was a victim of abuse- I don't want my daughter to ever experience the horrible things I've gone through, but I'm a different kind of mother. There's also been suggestions that maybe John had been abusing his older daughter and that's why he kept her picture in the bathroom! Sexual abuse is a deep, dark, dirty little hidden dysfunctional family secret.

 

[PaperDoll]

Sexual abuse is a deep, dark, dirty little hidden dysfunctional family secret.

yup and it happens to all walks of life...

 

[southcitymom]

I think you are missing my point. I didn't mean that any parent who ever hurt their child will have shown to be completely insane or not responsible for their actions. Only that they will have had a history of mental or emotional or domestic problems that were pretty obvious and that were affecting their lives and their relationships before and after the crimes.

Diane Downs had lots of emotional issues....so did Susan Smith for that matter.

Show me any reasonably normal parents who had it pretty much altogether, good job, solid relationship (not perfect), plenty of money, no history of child abuse or neglect, no domestic disturbance calls to their house, no criminal backgrounds, no one had post partum depression or spychosis but who suddenly killed their child on purpose with a bash on the head AND a garotte or even who when their child died by accident then garotted her to finish her off and shoved a paint brush into her for good measure.

I don't buy the garotting, violation with the paintbrush (and possible stun gun marks) to be in line with these parents personalities....even for cover up purposes...not even to protect Burke, who I doubt was involved at all.

If it was just the head bash and the ransom note I might be more convinced that it was the Ramseys.

I do concede that the note resembles PRs writing and that some things do point to them. But that is not a first in the history of crime....evidence seemingly pointing to the wrong person.

I can't for the life of me imagine the mother of a dead child writing that note hastily and remembering those movie references off the top of her head in a state of panic or grief.

JMHO

I have thought of the points you bring up here a great deal - particularly as regards the staged sex crime cover-up. I would be curious to know if Patsy was a true crime devotee. I have never heard anything about that.

If there was a cover-up in this case (and for me- the evidence points that way), it's overkill. A ransom note to make it seem like a kidnapper and establish that someone else was in the house PLUS a pedophile kinky sex crime scene....why both of these things. It's so confusing, it's almost brilliant.

I don't have as much of an issue with Patsy writing the RN - yes, it's hard to imagine, but if she were in full-blown cover-up mode and if, as a narcissist, she saw this as all truly happening to herself - it make sense. She has the journalism background. I don't think she conscietiously was trying to remember movie refs...they just came to hyer steam on consciousness style. Again, this is why I wonder if she was a true crime buff and if verbiage from those movies would have stuck in her mind underneath the surface.

If the bash on the head is what killed JBR, I think it was accidental - whoever caused it probably just meant to silence her, not kill her.

 

[newtv]

New, I know you are no stranger to domestic violence. That's why your claim of Ramsey innocence surprised me.
I think Patsy was an extremely insecure woman who didn't feel she could leave John and be an independent woman, she's the type who needs a man! Plus, my own personal theory is another one I had heard rumors about here- that her own father Don Paugh had abused her, therefore she didn't defend her daughter. That's not how I'd react if my daughter was a victim of abuse- I don't want my daughter to ever experience the horrible things I've gone through, but I'm a different kind of mother. There's also been suggestions that maybe John had been abusing his older daughter and that's why he kept her picture in the bathroom! Sexual abuse is a deep, dark, dirty little hidden dysfunctional family secret.

i hear you -and i dont discard your carefully thot out conclusions- I really dont see it here-there are so many possibilities and why are we picking these ones..
a dad can want his daughters picture in his bathroom-cuz i can imagine his bathroom is as big as half my room or more..is this the daughter who was killed? If so I really cant see why anyone would think it was unusual.
You can be sure his bathroom was very very very large.

 

[BloodshotEye]

Thanks Vet4Bush and SouthCityMom.
Vet4Bush makes a good clarification, by using the word "premeditated". It is less confusing than the word "accident".

But Vet4Bush, did you see photos of that head fracture? Man. I don't know; it just seems hard to picture, that a child could be knocked down, even by a hard shove, and result in such a nearly complete separation of the two sides of the skull, and that one area that appears to be an impact depression.

And perhaps most important to me, the autopsy or crime scene photos did not report that there was a volume of blood lost. Rather, there was some clotting at the wound site. The conclusion was that JBR was already dead or nearly dead, when this blow to the head was delivered. This is what steers me away from the PR did it scenario.