If you believe the Ramsey's did it please answer this for me...

[Peter Hamilton]

KTaylor--thank you for your excellent posts regarding Diane Downs,Susan Smith,and Patsy Ramsey--Your thoughts were articulate and well-presented

 

[cinsbythesea]

Your post really has me thinking. I've never wanted to believe it was the Ramsey's but I still theorize and your post has prompted a theory. At this point I'd like to say up front that most theories including my own, just seem so improbable but here goes...
Let's say that due to JB's chronic infections, Patsy began to suspect that JB was being molested and after pondering it (was even looking it up in the dictionary) was finally ready to ask the doctor point blank about it. Never thinking it could be her husband, she discusses the possibility of it being Burke with John. Now let's say John IS the one who's molesting JB and now knows that Patsy is about to actively seek answers from the doctor (also that she suspects Burke and not him), so HE kills JB (so as to keep her from finding out differently), sexually assaulting her with a small object (to replicate that it could have been Burke). He wakes Patsy in a panic and tells her (for whatever reason) that he's found JB and that Burke has killed her and they must hurriedly figure out what to do to protect him. He could even have convinced her that somehow it was her fault (bad mothering) and out of guilt she never really presses Burke about what happened, hence she continues to believe it was Burke but it was John.
Far fetched, I know but it's a thought.

Far-fetched maybe but I agree. At first I figured Burke was who they were protecting. They certainly got him out of Boulder fast enough after this all happened. Applying your logic though, I think it would not be an unlikely scenario that she would protect her young son when confronted by her husband that a horrible "accident" had taken place between their two children, allowing her an "out" as to her suspicions about her husband. Yuck. Imagine having to live with that.

 

[K. Taylor]

most people who murder are at the very least found to be living a double life-nothing about that has ever turned up-believe me if there was any dirt on the ramseys it would be used against them..

"At the very least" a double life??? I can only think of a handful of killers, like John Wayne Gacy, who led double lives. He was suburban dad by dad and homosexual predator by night. That's a double life. Most murderers actually kill someone they know, often in an umpremeditated fashion such as a fit of rage.

From your posts, you seem to think that all murderers are easily spottable - "whack jobs who lead double lives." Yes, it would be wonderful if all killers were easily identifiable villians with handlebar mustaches like from the movies. Then we could all steer clear of them. But that's just not reality. It's far more likely that a spouse, an ex, a friend, a co-worker or relative will be someone's murderer than a mysterious "whack job" stranger.

 

[lovebites]

My point had nothing to do with being able to predict that people who have problems will become murderers or who will snap....just that murdering mothers will have a history of problems....I don't necessarily mean someone just snapping and killing their child by total accident ....I mean the ones who do horrible things to their children...JBR wasn't just killed...she was bludgeoned, violated with a paint brush and garotted...I don't know about you but I don't read about that kind of thing being done to a child by their parents very often...and when I do the parents are usually total whack jobs or pretty obviously having mental or emotional issues.

I think what I stated was very clear and am not sure why people interpret what I have said as something different than what I said.

Not everyone with problems will be a killer. But most killers will show to have been having problems or behaviors in their life that in retrospect will explain why or how they did what they did. I hardly think Patsy would have killed JBR because she wanted a new boyfriend who didn't like kids the way Susan Smith did...Susan Smith may have been coping but she obviously wasn't coping very well now was she?

I don't find it hard to believe that a woman would kill her kid for bedwetting...I find it hard to believe that this Patsy killed her kid for bedwetting. Some emotional wreck or a woman or a drug user or an abusive or psychotic mother might do it....lash out in anger ....but even then....only a few of them would go beyond killing into the regions that this murder went with the overkill of the garotte and the paintbrush. I tend to think that a parent or any person who does that sort of thing would be a bit out of the ordinary having in the past showing some signs that they were this brutal of a person.

As I have stated other times...if it was just the head bash and the ransom note I would think Patsy might have just snapped but the garotte and the paint brush put this in the realm of someone very disturbed having had to have done it.

JMHO if anyone gets what I am trying to say LOL I may not express myself clearly.

BTW I dont think it impossible PR killed JBR it just isn't what I think is probable.

I get what you're trying to say and it's been a sore spot for me too. In most of the cases I've read about where a mother kills her child/ren, even if there weren't obvious signs prior to the murder, after the fact people close to the individual who look back and more closely analyze their behavior, find red flags that weren't interpreted as red flags at the time. Or perhaps in hindsight a motive (boyfriend doesn't want woman w/kids) comes to light.
In order to really believe it was Patsy, I want to hear SOMETHING ANYTHING that indicates that she was at the end of her ropes and not coping well. I want someone to come forward and say that Patsy had a hot temper, even if that person never thought it crossed the line into abuse. I want to hear SOMETHING that indicates that Patsy could be capable of defiling her daughter's poor damaged body even as a staging attempt because IMO it's one thing for a mother to shut her eyes and shoot or drive her car into a lake and another to have the capacity to savage your child's body after an accident *even to save yourself*. It's about degree not ability - she may have had the ability to kill probably accidentally, but the ability to do the multiple brutal things that were done to that little girl is a whole other realm of evil. That takes a sadist not simply someone who has the ability to fly into a momentary rage. So I do understand what you're saying. What makes it so hard to hang this on Patsy is *the degree of the brutality involved*.

I'm still so confused about this case myself. I've never thought it was the Ramsey's and after reading here, I'm now swaying from "they couldn't have" to "maybe they did". Everyone's got such valid points to make on both sides, it seems impossible to come to a firm conclusion.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I get what you're trying to say and it's been a sore spot for me too. In most of the cases I've read about where a mother kills her child/ren, even if there weren't obvious signs prior to the murder, after the fact people close to the individual who look back and more closely analyze their behavior, find red flags that weren't interpreted as red flags at the time. Or perhaps in hindsight a motive (boyfriend doesn't want woman w/kids) comes to light.
In order to really believe it was Patsy, I want to hear SOMETHING ANYTHING that indicates that she was at the end of her ropes and not coping well. I want someone to come forward and say that Patsy had a hot temper, even if that person never thought it crossed the line into abuse. I want to hear SOMETHING that indicates that Patsy could be capable of defiling her daughter's poor damaged body even as a staging attempt because IMO it's one thing for a mother to shut her eyes and shoot or drive her car into a lake and another to have the capacity to savage your child's body after an accident *even to save yourself*. It's about degree not ability - she may have had the ability to kill probably accidentally, but the ability to do the multiple brutal things that were done to that little girl is a whole other realm of evil. That takes a sadist not simply someone who has the ability to fly into a momentary rage. So I do understand what you're saying. What makes it so hard to hang this on Patsy is *the degree of the brutality involved*.

I'm still so confused about this case myself. I've never thought it was the Ramsey's and after reading here, I'm now swaying from "they couldn't have" to "maybe they did". Everyone's got such valid points to make on both sides, it seems impossible to come to a firm conclusion.

She suffered from Panic Attacks and Depression and took meds for it

 

[lovebites]

Far-fetched maybe but I agree. At first I figured Burke was who they were protecting. They certainly got him out of Boulder fast enough after this all happened. Applying your logic though, I think it would not be an unlikely scenario that she would protect her young son when confronted by her husband that a horrible "accident" had taken place between their two children, allowing her an "out" as to her suspicions about her husband. Yuck. Imagine having to live with that.

Exactly!
I can see a mother doing absolutely anything to protect her child even if she believes he caused the death of his sibling, BUT there's no way I can see a mother covering up the brutal death of her baby at the hands of her husband. Even if she did or if he helped her cover up because she did it, than I would have expected to see that marriage come crashing down during the following years. The one who helped cover up for the one who killed their baby, would, as time went by, have to have some seething anger and resentment that would build and build. Eventually turning into hatred. IMO

 

[LinasK]

Exactly!
there's no way I can see a mother covering up the brutal death of her baby at the hands of her husband. Even if she did or if he helped her cover up because she did it, than I would have expected to see that marriage come crashing down during the following years. The one who helped cover up for the one who killed their baby, would, as time went by, have to have some seething anger and resentment that would build and build. Eventually turning into hatred. IMO

Not necessarily. Some dysfunctional women feel more for their men than their children. Just look at the prison groupies. I believe Patsy was "standing by her man" no matter how horrific of things he inflicted on JonBenet.

And... FWIW, although I think John was the killer, we have a poster at Websleuths who has experienced Patsy's black rage personally. Look in this forum for posts by concernedperson. She met Patsy in Atlanta.

 

[lovebites]

She suffered from Panic Attacks and Depression and took meds for it

Interesting, however in other cases of mothers killing their kids we usually find out that for one reason or another they wanted their kids out of the way, but in Patsy's case she's being accused of flying into a murderous rage with having had no signs or symptoms of angry outbursts or anything of the kind. Usually even in rage killings there is some mild degree of losing control that presents itself before the person takes that final leap over the cliff.

Just to clarify that when we are comparing Patsy to other mothers who have killing their child/ren, she's the only one who's being accused of a rage killing. At least the history of a temper would make it easier to believe she was capable.

 

[Bronte Nut]

Not necessarily. Some dysfunctional women feel more for their men than their children. Just look at the prison groupies. I believe Patsy was "standing by her man" no matter how horrific of things he inflicted on JonBenet.

And... FWIW, although I think John was the killer, we have a poster at Websleuths who has experienced Patsy's black rage personally. Look in this forum for posts by concernedperson. She met Patsy in Atlanta.

Yep, there are many women on record as having sided with a psychotic, abusive partner rathrer than protect their children, such as the case someone mentioned recently where a woman watched her worthless boyfriend beat her 5-year-old daughter to death.

Like many of these women, Patsy may well have experienced an emotional shutdown towards JonBenet - to some extent she must have to push her into so many 'Come and get me all you pedos out there' pageants.

Whoever did the deed, I think the Ramseys were in it equally, and I agree, Patsy was standing by her man.

 

[Jolynna]

"IMO it's one thing for a mother to shut her eyes and shoot or drive her car into a lake and another to have the capacity to savage your child's body after an accident *even to save yourself*."

Diane Downs didn't shut her eyes before she shot...her aim was good. She looked into at least two of her children's terrified eyes before she pulled the trigger. Blood spray on the outside of a cardoor shows one of the little girls had managed to open the door and tried to get away. But, she was pulled back into the car by her mother and shot to death. We know the other little girl was awake and aware of what was going on because she testified against her mother in the trial.

This was not a bloodless murder.

A mother in a town not far from where I live recently beat her daughter to death with an iron frying pan. The mother is Mennonite (very much like the amish in dress) and from every account a good and religious woman.

Beliefs such as what *you think* a certain kind of mother would or would not do are not evidence. Sometimes motives are NEVER known.

Just the facts.

 

[lovebites]

Not necessarily. Some dysfunctional women feel more for their men than their children. Just look at the prison groupies. I believe Patsy was "standing by her man" no matter how horrific of things he inflicted on JonBenet.

And... FWIW, although I think John was the killer, we have a poster at Websleuths who has experienced Patsy's black rage personally. Look in this forum for posts by concernedperson. She met Patsy in Atlanta.

LOL God help me, concernedperson has over 8 thousand posts, I'll never find her reference to meeting Patsy. Any idea what the thread title was?:waitasec:

 

[Jolynna]

LinaSk,

That is interesting information about Patsy.

I think I read somewhere that she was not especially ladylike in an interview with Tom Haney also, but there is so much info out now that I could not google up any links to see if there was an available video clip.

 

[Bronte Nut]

"IMO it's one thing for a mother to shut her eyes and shoot or drive her car into a lake and another to have the capacity to savage your child's body after an accident *even to save yourself*."

Diane Downs didn't shut her eyes before she shot...her aim was good. She looked into at least two of her children's terrified eyes before she pulled the trigger. Blood spray on the outside of a cardoor shows one of the little girls had managed to open the door and tried to get away. But, she was pulled back into the car by her mother and shot to death. We know the other little girl was awake and aware of what was going on because she testified against her mother in the trial.

This was not a bloodless murder.

A mother in a town not far from where I live recently beat her daughter to death with an iron frying pan. The mother is Mennonite (very much like the amish in dress) and from every account a good and religious woman.

Beliefs such as what *you think* a certain kind of mother would or would not do are not evidence. Sometimes motives are NEVER known.

Just the facts.

Wow, you've got it.

Killers, angels, refugees...

Patsy had already dehumanized JonBenet by turning her into a doll-like pedophile lure. It does not shock me that she could have created or co-created the nightmarish 'intruder' scene.

If there had been ANY clear evidence of an actual intruder, the Ramseys would never have faced this level of suspicion, weird and obstructive behavior or not.

There wasn't.

 

[lovebites]

"IMO it's one thing for a mother to shut her eyes and shoot or drive her car into a lake and another to have the capacity to savage your child's body after an accident *even to save yourself*."

Diane Downs didn't shut her eyes before she shot...her aim was good. She looked into at least two of her children's terrified eyes before she pulled the trigger. Blood spray on the outside of a cardoor shows one of the little girls had managed to open the door and tried to get away. But, she was pulled back into the car by her mother and shot to death. We know the other little girl was awake and aware of what was going on because she testified against her mother in the trial.

This was not a bloodless murder.

A mother in a town not far from where I live recently beat her daughter to death with an iron frying pan. The mother is Mennonite (very much like the amish in dress) and from every account a good and religious woman.

Beliefs such as what *you think* a certain kind of mother would or would not do are not evidence. Sometimes motives are NEVER known.

Just the facts.

You know....I'm not only willing to consider all possibilities, but I find most people's theories to be well thought out and interesting even if I'm not always swayed. What I'm not willing to do however is deal with someone who can't discuss the case without being antagonistic.

 

[K. Taylor]

If you don't think Patsy had a temper, read Steve Thomas' book and the account of her interview. I've also seen other mentions over the years of incidents wherein Patsy sweet southern act slipped. It didn't happen often but in retrospect I think a lot of us RDI theorists have had no problem seeing plenty of red flags with Patsy the same as people were able to retrospectively spot the red flags in Diane Downs or Susan Smith.

 

[LinasK]

LOL God help me, concernedperson has over 8 thousand posts, I'll never find her reference to meeting Patsy. Any idea what the thread title was?:waitasec:

Found the post for you, what you need to do is an advanced search limiting it to just to JBR forum. Here it is:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=506661&highlight=met+Patsy+Ramsey+real+estate+office#post506661

I am sorry I just saw this post or I would have answered sooner. I met Patsy Ramsey in 1998 or 1999, can't remember which as I was not particularly interested in her.

I was working on a large rental real estate development in Atlanta. I had just been transferred there from another property. The Ramsey's were living there while their house was being built. A very expensive community..I might add. For rentals....

She came into the leasing office expecting a package and flew into a rage because it was there but hadn't been delivered to her apartment. We did cater to residents but we were very busy and most residents would come to the office and pick up anything delivered while they were out for the day. And, not complain, just glad they didn't have to go to UPS to retrieve it. But, not Patsy, her face became distorted and veins were extended and she was screaming at one of my co-workers. Not me or she would have had to deal with screaming back at her. Anyway, it was very much an entitlement situation and she enjoyed humiliating someone for her discomfort. I watched this whole scenario and put it in my back pocket for future discovery. I didn't get the internet at home until 2002 so my research was limited to my employers computers and that wasn't feasible. But now, I am a happy on line camper.

So, in essence if you see someone behave like that there is more to it. And from what I have read...I am sure of it.

 

[lovebites]

If you don't think Patsy had a temper, read Steve Thomas' book and the account of her interview. I've also seen other mentions over the years of incidents wherein Patsy sweet southern act slipped. It didn't happen often but in retrospect I think a lot of us RDI theorists have had no problem seeing plenty of red flags with Patsy the same as people were able to retrospectively spot the red flags in Diane Downs or Susan Smith.

Ahhh....I had no idea she'd been known to have a temper. That's the kind of info that's useful. Was that temper ever seen being directed at JB?

 

[lovebites]

Found the post for you, what you need to do is an advanced search limiting it to just to JBR forum. Here it is:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=506661&highlight=met+Patsy+Ramsey+real+estate+office#post506661

I am sorry I just saw this post or I would have answered sooner. I met Patsy Ramsey in 1998 or 1999, can't remember which as I was not particularly interested in her.

I was working on a large rental real estate development in Atlanta. I had just been transferred there from another property. The Ramsey's were living there while their house was being built. A very expensive community..I might add. For rentals....

She came into the leasing office expecting a package and flew into a rage because it was there but hadn't been delivered to her apartment. We did cater to residents but we were very busy and most residents would come to the office and pick up anything delivered while they were out for the day. And, not complain, just glad they didn't have to go to UPS to retrieve it. But, not Patsy, her face became distorted and veins were extended and she was screaming at one of my co-workers. Not me or she would have had to deal with screaming back at her. Anyway, it was very much an entitlement situation and she enjoyed humiliating someone for her discomfort. I watched this whole scenario and put it in my back pocket for future discovery. I didn't get the internet at home until 2002 so my research was limited to my employers computers and that wasn't feasible. But now, I am a happy on line camper.

So, in essence if you see someone behave like that there is more to it. And from what I have read...I am sure of it.

Thank you for getting this for me!! I've always said that to get a true feel for the Ramsey family dynamics (which would help develop a sense of what they'd be capable of) you'd need to know some inside info on who they really were behind closed doors.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

Ahhh....I had no idea she'd been known to have a temper. That's the kind of info that's useful. Was that temper ever seen being directed at JB?

I've heard the housekeeper on occassion witnessed Patsy having a "problem" with Jonbenet's soiling problems.

Beauty queens as you know aren't supposed to have soiling problems...

 

[lovebites]

I've heard the housekeeper on occasion witnessed Patsy having a "problem" with Jonbenet's soiling problems.

Beauty queens as you know aren't supposed to have soiling problems...

It's certainly something that has to be considered when one is formulating their conclusions/theories about the case.

By the way - other than John being ruled out as the author of the ransom note, I keep hearing he was "cleared" in the case - based on what? Are they just referring to the ransom note?