If you look at it logically it's very clear who did it!

[OneLove]

I have suspicions too, I don’t rule anyone out per sae but my main opinion is that an intruder did it. Based mainly on the DNA and there was no evidence of abuse with in the family. What makes you suspect John? I’ve asked this question to a lot of people but they never answer it.

One primary way that sexual abusers evade detection is through the use of inserting foreign objects. There's no visible signs of that, even during exams for urinary infections in young girls. EAnd many many feel shame so never tell, especially when it's used as punishment or simply when the perpetrator is in a mad rage. The 2 kids, one male one female, that required surgical repairs for such abuse had no other telltale signs and that's why it went on long enough to require reconstructions.

 

[OneLove]

Many,many things starting with the fact that he had to be stopped from booking a flight out of Boulder not even an hour after finding his murdered daughter.
The fact that his first and second thoughts within an hour of finding his murdered daughter were fleeing the state and lawyering up .
The RN, no signs of any intruder and JB being found in an obscure location, the WC.
I also will never believe that an intruder would take the time to write the War and Peace of RN's, using the Ramsey's notepad and pen, feed JB pineapple, and after all of that fail to take his kidnapping victim with him.
Utter nonsense.
Jmo

I took JR's extreme rush to get a flight out as a primary reason for him *finally* going down to the basement and bringing JBR's body up. The hours were ticking by and the day was quickly disappearing. He had places to go and things to do... while it was still light out, ya know?

 

[concernedcitizen706]

From what I understand, the blue fibres found on JonBenet were thought to have come from a blue towel and they think she was wiped down with a blue towel. I don’t think there was evidence of being wiped with a paper napkin. She did have dried blood on her perineum and labia majora. And dried and semi fluid blood on her fourchette and in the vestibule. I know she was swabbed but I’m not sure if the body swabs detected the unknown male dna in or around her vaginal skin. I haven’t been able to find those reports. The unknown male dna found in her intimate region was only found within the bloodstains on jonbenets underpants. It was a small amount of DNA but according to Mitch Morresey, it was an almost complete profile. No foreign dna was found in between the blood spots. Anything is possible until they find out whose DNA it is and why it’s there. It could be possible the dna was left over from a previous assault and that’s why the deposit was so small but I try not to speculate because there are so many possibilities but there’s no proof. She wet her pants which might have washed away or diluted some blood/DNA evidence.

Okay that's interesting about the blue fibers possibly from a towel. Was that a towel from the house? Like do they have other blue towels?

Well I don't think the blue towell was used on the spot with the DNA. Because then the DNA from that towel would have gotten in other spots. Or... Maybe another part of the towel was used to clear the spots.

Another possibility is, it was something on the paintbrush handle. Or something he used on the paintbrush handle. So he grabbed a napkin from the trash, and he used it to push the paintbrush handle deeper inside the body, by the outer tip, one last time. After he did that, some last drops of blood came out with the DNA, from the paintbrush handle, that just had the napkin with the DNA on it, on to the underwear. That's why the DNA is only on those couple spots. Then he checked again later and saw the new blood spots. So he tried to wipe it again. And while he was wiping the body of those new spots, he got some of the new blood with napkin DNA on his gloves tips. And then he also got it on the waistband and on jonbenet's hands, while he was moving them for their final position. I mean we are talking about a very small amount here.

 

[Tricia]

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[Tower]

In my short time in social work and juvenile justice, I had 4 young children sexually abused in this manner, boys and girls, and their sexual abusers were women. I served as court appointed and mandated supervisor for 2 of them. Yes, women who themselves once sexually abused and experience their earliest dawnings of physical sexual responsiveness during such sexual abuse can be "turned funny" and continue like abuse down through the generations. Generational incest, for example, involves women as does abuse/punishments using foreign objects. Two of these children required surgical repairs.

That’s horrific and I’m sorry you had to deal with the absolute worst in people. I truly will try to find the links tomorrow. The stats say it’s a male crime which does not rule out that it has never happened in reverse, just that those instances are exceptionally rare.

In your anecdotal experience, it absolutely happened, of course. I do not believe PR was abused by that very specific type of SA as a child and demonstrated no signs of that type of violation. I think for this and other reasons in this case, a male was involved, but I don’t think females are incapable of brutality and cruelty.

 

[887sMtreme]

DBM - used wrong format

 

[887sMtreme]

Yes the Ramsey’s were cleared, in fact, Mary Lacy said they were exonerated. Ex-DA Opens Up About Why She Cleared the Ramsey Family of JonBenet's Murder

Lacy lost her job over that fiasco.

 

[OneLove]

That’s horrific and I’m sorry you had to deal with the absolute worst in people. I truly will try to find the links tomorrow. The stats say it’s a male crime which does not rule out that it has never happened in reverse, just that those instances are exceptionally rare.

In your anecdotal experience, it absolutely happened, of course. I do not believe PR was abused by that very specific type of SA as a child and demonstrated no signs of that type of violation. I think for this and other reasons in this case, a male was involved, but I don’t think females are incapable of brutality and cruelty.

Oh good; I've been looking for a source that has verified the specific "brand" of Patsy's sexual abuse she suffered as a child herself and have never found that. Do you know your source on that? I'd love to read more.

As to Patsy "demonstrating no signs of that type of sexual abuse", I'm ultra confused. Are there some specific signs of that specific kind of abuse that signify that particular kind of sexual abuse did (or did not) happen to a person in their childhood? I'm only familiar with the more commonly known huuuge numbers of people who often take years of therapy before they have been able to bring up and discuss childhood sexual abuse at all.

I'm just trying to be sure we aren't taking what we'd "like" to believe is true and then building confirmation statements around that wish as though it "is" indeed true instead of being an as yet unknown.

 

[OneLove]

In response to "Lacey lost her job over that fiasco.

It is crazy laughable that ML used a "butt print" indentation in the carpet, or so she imagined, outside the bedroom in the hallway to reach the conclusion that ONLY an intruder killer laying in wait for just the right moment (after waiting long enough to leave a butt print, lol) to drag JBR downstairs to feed her pineapple then to the far end of the basement to sa & murder her so he could leave a note saying he had kidnapped her. Sure sure. Hmm, was that so-imagined butt print ever documented in the initial investigation? Oh, and that also ML said a mother could NEVER do that to a child.

Sooooo.... can we all agree by this point in time that we have seen plenty enough and more horrific stories, even right here at WS, of so called "mothers" committing horrendous abuse, torture, and then murders of their own children that we can set ML's laughable and totally subjective assumptions aside?

The only difference i can draw in this case in regards to why PR got a free pass on this whereas most remain under the cloud of suspicion and are competently investigated is that, unlike most reported child sex abuse and murders, Patsy was white, affluent, a former beauty queen (only attribute ever reported about her in the media actually), recent cancer patient, social connections, and bulldog dominant husband who knew how to throw threats around like darts at a dart board.

 

[OneLove]

I took JR's extreme rush to get a flight out as a primary reason for him *finally* going down to the basement and bringing JBR's body up. The hours were ticking by and the day was quickly disappearing. He had places to go and things to do... while it was still light out, ya know?

To be clear: I don't believe JR tried to get a flight out an hour later *because* JBR's dead body was found. I believe her dead body was found and brought upstairs *because* he wanted to get that flight out just as he'd planned before all this inconvenience muddled the schedule. He was meeting his other older adult kids and eager to get to Charlevoix.

In fact, now that I think about it, with JBR out of the way, and his "former pageant queen" wife very ill with not a great prognosis, only Burke would be left between him and Patsy's 50% of their assets. It strikes me odd that Burke was not named for his dad but his little sister was named for both his dad and his mom. I wonder what level of bonding JR had with his 2 younger children. I'm thinking he probably didn't marry Patsy initially for the children, given his age and the ages of his older children. It took a few years or more, didn't it, before Patsy had the children? Had to talk JR into it maybe?? Maybe he came to regret that, especially with Patsy facing the medical situation she was
Remember, treatment and particularly prognosis were different back then especially with ovarian cancer and treatments have radically improved that since then. JR was a planner and a meticulous business person, was he not. And lastly, some pages back, someone alluded to a statement that had been made by a person or persons close to John's business doings that he had an "office wife", I believe that was the specific term used. Do we know who said that and in what context?

 

[GRT]

Please do some due diligence.
The Ramseys were not cleared. Saying so over and over does not make it factual. It has been proven over and over that that is false.

Realistically, they were cleared by DA Lacy, and then a few years later, a different DA said Lacy's pronouncement and letter of apology were "misleading." That latter DA added that the Ramseys were still covered by a presumption of innocence.

But, until a murderer is found, no one is ever completely cleared. All "witnesses" can return to being "persons of interest" or "suspects."

So, don't say being cleared is false because it happened. It's one of those inconvenient facts, and it was publicly documented in the media when it occurred.

Are the Ramseys still looked at as suspects by some, including LE? Of course. Those working the cold case will be looking at all the former suspects, including all the others that were at one time cleared in one way or another.

Hopefully, the new DNA testing will lead to the real killer.

 

[snooptroop88]

Have any of you listened to the 3 part interview with the Zell brothers on The True Crime Garage podcast? It was pretty interesting! It highlights the history of child sex rings and pedophilia in Boulder, CO and how little time they served for their crimes after being offered plea deals from the DA. They also discuss the fact that there was a pedophile living at St. John Episcopalian Church and the BPD essentially turned a blind eye and the church paid the guy (Brian Perry I think) to leave because he threatened to expose more people in the church.

Don't get me wrong, this sounds like an excellent special, but I don't know that I'd watch it. Basically, what I think I've seen happen in this case is that-- it is never going to be solved. Ever. We will all pay the price for the contamination of the CS, but no one will pay a bigger price than the tiny victim.

Nobody is going to watch a show on how it was an inside job now, imo. Weren't there lawsuits? I'm assuming that has a very chilling effect on free discussion for that side of the argument. (There was certainly plenty out there when it came to that perspective prior to the legal action/s, however.) I'm not passing any judgment on these legal actions, I don't know enough about them. I do know they exist. And I wouldn't anticipate that inside job theory ever being provable. So now, you're going to have YouTubers that perhaps fear legal action if they assert such an opinion, together with the fact that it never really can be proven one way or the other.

On the flipside, theoretically, if there were an intruder-- could that be proven? I still find it unlikely, but I suppose perhaps, depending on what information was produced. I'd still think it's highly unlikely. But as of now, there's no legal action that I'm aware of in terms of such theories. So I think YouTubers may feel a bit more secure if they produce material with a bent towards such theories. And it also reinforces the possibility for those that feel extremely uncomfortable even entertaining the "inside job" theory with the idea of parents that would murder their own child-- and stage any kind of "cover-up."

JMO, we're never going to know. And it's a devastating tragedy for everyone involved.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

In response to "Lacey lost her job over that fiasco.

It is crazy laughable that ML used a "butt print" indentation in the carpet, or so she imagined, outside the bedroom in the hallway to reach the conclusion that ONLY an intruder killer laying in wait for just the right moment (after waiting long enough to leave a butt print, lol) to drag JBR downstairs to feed her pineapple then to the far end of the basement to sa & murder her so he could leave a note saying he had kidnapped her. Sure sure. Hmm, was that so-imagined butt print ever documented in the initial investigation? Oh, and that also ML said a mother could NEVER do that to a child.

Sooooo.... can we all agree by this point in time that we have seen plenty enough and more horrific stories, even right here at WS, of so called "mothers" committing horrendous abuse, torture, and then murders of their own children that we can set ML's laughable and totally subjective assumptions aside?

The only difference i can draw in this case in regards to why PR got a free pass on this whereas most remain under the cloud of suspicion and are competently investigated is that, unlike most reported child sex abuse and murders, Patsy was white, affluent, a former beauty queen (only attribute ever reported about her in the media actually), recent cancer patient, social connections, and bulldog dominant husband who knew how to throw threats around like darts at a dart board.

You have no proof to back up anything you’ve claimed. It’s all in your head. There’s absolutely no proof what so ever of anything you’ve claimed said.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

There’s no proof the ramseys staged the crime scene. Maybe the intruder staged it.

The FBI was Involved.
JRs team tried to hire retired FBI expert and he politely declined because he had seen enough to know the crime scene screamed STAGED.

 

[Ponytale]

Okay that's interesting about the blue fibers possibly from a towel. Was that a towel from the house? Like do they have other blue towels?

It is all only an assumption. The fibers were "consistent with" it possibly being a towel used to wipe her. No towel was ever found at the house and no match was made to any item.

Well I don't think the blue towell was used on the spot with the DNA. Because then the DNA from that towel would have gotten in other spots. Or... Maybe another part of the towel was used to clear the spots.

We do not even know for a fact that it was a towel. We do not know if it was used (if she was cleaned) at her house, at the Whites or at some other location. There is no clear answer that explains the DNA being there, but there are many possibilities how and when a foreign DNA could have gotten there.

 

[Ponytale]

Oh good; I've been looking for a source that has verified the specific "brand" of Patsy's sexual abuse she suffered as a child herself and have never found that. Do you know your source on that? I'd love to read more.

As to Patsy "demonstrating no signs of that type of sexual abuse", I'm ultra confused. Are there some specific signs of that specific kind of abuse that signify that particular kind of sexual abuse did (or did not) happen to a person in their childhood? I'm only familiar with the more commonly known huuuge numbers of people who often take years of therapy before they have been able to bring up and discuss childhood sexual abuse at all.

I'm just trying to be sure we aren't taking what we'd "like" to believe is true and then building confirmation statements around that wish as though it "is" indeed true instead of being an as yet unknown.

I totally agree with you.
I grew up knowing a family with kids where there was all kinds of abuse - the house was dirty, parents negligent, hunger, poor hygiene, alcohol and corporal punishment towards the kids on a regular bases. It lasted all their childhood. I was a friend for one of the sisters and we played together outside and at my place. I only once visited their house, without my parents knowing, when I was about 6-7 years old - and the shock of the scene and the smell of it all still comes back to me when I think about it 30 years later.
I knew one of the daughters of that household until I finished high school and after that our ways parted. But I have kept in touch with the other sister and we have met on a couple of occasions later in life. And, thanks to the Internet, I have learned that both girls have thrived - they both have college degrees with one of them running a company, are clean, own houses and both have lovely families. They, seemingly, look all happy on the pictures and videos they post online and their awful past have left them behind.
They do not demonstrate anything that would make someone think that they had a poor upbringing. I know it was there, I witnessed it multiple times.

My point is, there are no "signs". People are different. Some get affected by abuse and become abusers too. Some hide it deep inside and become drug addicts, alcoholics or even commit suicide because it is all too much to cope. And some just put their past behind themselves and live, thrive and make their own dreams happen. There are no rules here. Some are able to talk about their past experiences - they write books and do counselling to help others. Some will never get over it enough to even talk about it and carry the shame of it inside for all of their lives. People are different, and cope differently.

And there are also those who seemingly appear to others like they have it all together and live a wonderful lives - exactly like Ramsey's. But what the public and friends saw about them ant their house was not a reality, was it? It was just a performance put up by them. But no-one really knew what the house looked like when the party was over. Or that the kids had toileting and hygiene issues that should have been dealt with. That John and Patsy's relationship was, perhaps, colder and more distant then what they showed to the guests at the parties. And so one... Truth is, we rarely know what happens behind closed doors. And that also applies regarding the abuse - will will never know for sure.

There are many who smile in the public and hug their kids when someone is watching. But after they arrive home the smiles fade and abuse starts. Threats, violence, sexual abuse, verbal abuse or corporal punishment all happen, no matter what the abusers past was. A princess can be aggressive, a shy school boy can become a mass murderer, a good father and a respected colleague can throw his child off a bridge, a mother-of the-year can starve their children. We, have read about it all too many times, unfortunately...

 

[Ponytale]

Clear factual evidence is open to interpretation. The evidence that indicates there was an intruder is the foreign DNA. The ransom note. Then there’s the evidence put together by Lou smit, The suitcase under the basement window, the scuff mark on the basement wall below the window. The foliage from above the window grate found underneath the window grate. Packing peanuts dirt and debris from the window well on the floor of the basement. I haven’t seen any clear factual evidence that points to the Ramsey’s either. If there was, they would have been charged by now in my opinion.

Yes, but it could all be explained away just the same with things that could not have been connected to the crime at all.
DNA- Multiple ways how and when it could have gotten there that possibly has nothing to do with the crime.

The ransom note - If I write one, does that mean an intruder was in my house? Again, it does not point to an intruder.
What evidence do you point to exactly that was put together by Lou Smit? I do not know any factual evidence that he had put together that proves an intruder was in the house. He too had only his theories and beliefs.
The suitcase that was in the basement only proves that there was a suitcase that was located in the basement.
The scuff mark on the wall only proves that there was a scuff mark on the wall. We know John has said publicly that had entered that window previously. Maybe he left it. Maybe someone else did. Maybe Burke was playing in the train room once and climbed out of that window just for fun?
Same for the debris/foliage. It only proves that it is there. We do not know when and how it was disturbed or got there.

All of these have been discussed previously and there are plenty of simple explanations available for all of them. I'm not going to explain them here again.

Yes, there is no clear evidence that points to the Ramsey's and I agree that if there was the case would be possibly solved by now. But putting the whole picture together considering what we know, IMO, points a lot more towards it being an inside job, rather than an intruder.
Only my opinion.

 

[Bean&Cheese]

For being incredibly lucky, that intruder was sure a dumb a$$.

Because he didn’t use the chair over the suitcase?

 

[GRT]

I think it bears repeating that just because a person is considered an "intruder," it doesn't mean he broke into the house. The Ramseys had given out keys to several acquaintances and friends.

The killer could very well have been an intruder -- yet walked in the front door and left the same way--via a housekey.

 

[Ponytale]

I think it bears repeating that just because a person is considered an "intruder," it doesn't mean he broke into the house. The Ramseys had given out keys to several acquaintances and friends.

The killer could very well have been an intruder -- yet walked in the front door and left the same way--via a housekey.

If it was someone outside the house that the family knew and trusted and possibly owned keys - what do you think was the reason for that person to do it all and why now?