If you look at it logically it's very clear who did it!

[stmarysmead]

There are two things that have always made me suspect the Ramseys. I just cannot reconcile these ‘behaviors.’

When Patsy read that ransom note, it was made very clear that the house was being watched. Any indication that police had been notified would result in her daughter’s death. But she not only immediately called the police, she proceeded to call all their close friends!

The police I might be able to reconcile. But having their friends rush over to sully a crime scene? More importantly, if she had even the slightest fear that anyone was watching, a parade of visitors at such an early morning hour, would have guaranteed the death of her child. Why would Patsy have taken that chance?

Secondly, the female LE was quoted as saying that there was no emotional response at all from either parent when the ransom call did not come at the designated time. As a Mother myself, who grew increasingly anxious if my children did not come home at an agreed time, I cannot imagine a woman as seemingly emotional,as Patsy just blowing off no call coming in at the time it was expected.

IMO, most parents would be watching the clock, minute by agonizing minute, for the one chance to connect with the person who had my kidnapped child. If that time just….passed…my anxiety would be on overload! I certainly could not have just ignored it! Especially after being warned not to tell anyone, and allowing both police and a posse of friends to enter the house. Not getting that call might indicate my child had been killed. The only chance for contact had come and gone!

How could the Ramseys have been so nonchalant when no call ever came at the specified time?.

Unless they knew no call was coming and their daughter was already dead, downstairs,

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Because he didn’t use the chair over the suitcase?

Exactly. Or the step stool.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Realistically, they were cleared by DA Lacy, and then a few years later, a different DA said Lacy's pronouncement and letter of apology were "misleading." That latter DA added that the Ramseys were still covered by a presumption of innocence.

But, until a murderer is found, no one is ever completely cleared. All "witnesses" can return to being "persons of interest" or "suspects."

So, don't say being cleared is false because it happened. It's one of those inconvenient facts, and it was publicly documented in the media when it occurred.

Are the Ramseys still looked at as suspects by some, including LE? Of course. Those working the cold case will be looking at all the former suspects, including all the others that were at one time cleared in one way or another.

Hopefully, the new DNA testing will lead to the real killer.

I would answer that realisticly if someone does or says something that they did not have the authority to do it is invalid. Most people have the basic understanding of this while others keep perpetuating the falsehood.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

There’s no proof the ramseys staged the crime scene. Maybe the intruder staged it.

So the FBI were incompetent also?
Why is that? They were assisting LE but you seem to disregard everyone who was on the case as unable to do their job. They had first hand knowledge and were there to observe the scene. We were not.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

I took JR's extreme rush to get a flight out as a primary reason for him *finally* going down to the basement and bringing JBR's body up. The hours were ticking by and the day was quickly disappearing. He had places to go and things to do... while it was still light out, ya know?

Maybe he had a tee time he was running late for. Don't be so harsh.

 

[Ponytale]

How could the Ramseys have been so nonchalant when no call ever came at the specified time?.

Yes, and that IMO is the key! The way they acted in the morning when this was all just a kidnapping does not portray the actions of innocent parents whos child has been kidnapped. IMO

If this is true and there indeed were no concerns observed, questions asked or anxiety shown at the time of that stressful period of waiting for the call, If I were there - I would have screamed BINGO! No parent would not care.

Oh I wish I could travel back in time to observe that day...
It's sad that we have only Detective Arndt's observations to read. There were many people going in and out of that house. Friends, law enforcement, Coroners assistant, Priest... We only have some random snippets and some of them too are not confirmed. I wish we could read their full statements of observations that they noticed that day. If we would have multiple statements, we could put together a better idea of what was said and done and how anyone of them acted during all of this.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Yes, and that IMO is the key! The way they acted in the morning when this was all just a kidnapping does not portray the actions of innocent parents whos child has been kidnapped. IMO

Oh I wish I could travel back in time to observe that day...
It's sad that we have only Detective Arndt's observations to read. There were many people going in and out of that house. Friends, law enforcement, Coroners assistant, Priest... We only have some random snippets and some of them too are not confirmed. I wish we could read their full statements of observations that they noticed that day. If we would have multiple statements, we could put together a better idea of what was said and done and how anyone of them acted during all of this.

Can you imagine how that sounded to the GJ if witnesses were asked that question? And I don't mean LE but their friends.

 

[Curious-A]

There are two things that have always made me suspect the Ramseys. I just cannot reconcile these ‘behaviors.’

When Patsy read that ransom note, it was made very clear that the house was being watched. Any indication that police had been notified would result in her daughter’s death. But she not only immediately called the police, she proceeded to call all their close friends!

The police I might be able to reconcile. But having their friends rush over to sully a crime scene? More importantly, if she had even the slightest fear that anyone was watching, a parade of visitors at such an early morning hour, would have guaranteed the death of her child. Why would Patsy have taken that chance?

Secondly, the female LE was quoted as saying that there was no emotional response at all from either parent when the ransom call did not come at the designated time. As a Mother myself, who grew increasingly anxious if my children did not come home at an agreed time, I cannot imagine a woman as seemingly emotional,as Patsy just blowing off no call coming in at the time it was expected.

IMO, most parents would be watching the clock, minute by agonizing minute, for the one chance to connect with the person who had my kidnapped child. If that time just….passed…my anxiety would be on overload! I certainly could not have just ignored it! Especially after being warned not to tell anyone, and allowing both police and a posse of friends to enter the house. Not getting that call might indicate my child had been killed. The only chance for contact had come and gone!

How could the Ramseys have been so nonchalant when no call ever came at the specified time?.

Unless they knew no call was coming and their daughter was already dead, downstairs,

I’m with you here. IMO Innocent parents would react as you described. Calling police and friends etc would point to JB being killed by “the abductors” because the Ramsey’s “didn’t follow” ransom note instructions.

 

[Ponytale]

Can you imagine how that sounded to the GJ if witnesses were asked that question? And I don't mean LE but their friends.

I only hope that there are statements from them that we have not seen but still were presented to the GJ.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

There are two things that have always made me suspect the Ramseys. I just cannot reconcile these ‘behaviors.’

When Patsy read that ransom note, it was made very clear that the house was being watched. Any indication that police had been notified would result in her daughter’s death. But she not only immediately called the police, she proceeded to call all their close friends!

The police I might be able to reconcile. But having their friends rush over to sully a crime scene? More importantly, if she had even the slightest fear that anyone was watching, a parade of visitors at such an early morning hour, would have guaranteed the death of her child. Why would Patsy have taken that chance?

Secondly, the female LE was quoted as saying that there was no emotional response at all from either parent when the ransom call did not come at the designated time. As a Mother myself, who grew increasingly anxious if my children did not come home at an agreed time, I cannot imagine a woman as seemingly emotional,as Patsy just blowing off no call coming in at the time it was expected.

IMO, most parents would be watching the clock, minute by agonizing minute, for the one chance to connect with the person who had my kidnapped child. If that time just….passed…my anxiety would be on overload! I certainly could not have just ignored it! Especially after being warned not to tell anyone, and allowing both police and a posse of friends to enter the house. Not getting that call might indicate my child had been killed. The only chance for contact had come and gone!

How could the Ramseys have been so nonchalant when no call ever came at the specified time?.

Unless they knew no call was coming and their daughter was already dead, downstairs,

Your points are spot on. The threats of what we be done to her were so horrific . Their nonreaction is not only suspicious but makes one think " do you even care?" We all respond differently but to have no outward response or questions for LE as to "OMG what next, " will never sit right with me. I respond pretty stealth in emergencies but I would be pummeling those cops to do something and what can be done, and freaking do it!!!

 

[GRT]

If it was someone outside the house that the family knew and trusted and possibly owned keys - what do you think was the reason for that person to do it all and why now?

Well, I've said before that I'm pretty firmly in the FDI camp.

And for the past decade or so, John Ramsey himself has said he has suspicions that the killer was in their inner circle of friends.

I think the motive for the killing was an obsession with JBR, and I think FW's history of tending to JBR's personal hygiene exacerbated the obsession.

In Patsy's deposition, she was repeatedly asked why she had been so tired that night. She was also asked if she thought her family could have been drugged before they came home.

FW knew the layout of the Ramsey house, and he searched the basement earlier that day but claimed he didn't see her. After John found her, LE told FW to guard the door to the basement and not let anyone go down, but he ran down and picked up the duct tape that had been on JBR's mouth and put it on the blanket.

In the days that followed, his behavior was anything but normal, when he started verbally attacking his hosts in GA.

But one of the biggest after-the-fact red flags for me was his demand to have a copy of his earlier deposition before he testified at the GJ. Does an honest person need to do that? Or one that is afraid he can't remember what he said before?

Then he sued to get his GJ testimony record and he wrote rambling, disjointed letters to media and threatened to sue the PD.

As to your "Why now?" question -- who knows?

 

[GRT]

When Patsy read that ransom note, it was made very clear that the house was being watched. Any indication that police had been notified would result in her daughter’s death. But she not only immediately called the police, she proceeded to call all their close friends!

According to the story, PR called the Whites, and then the Whites called other friends, and so on.

But, anyone who follows true crime understands that the longer a person is missing, the less likely they are to be alive. I think most parents would immediately call LE. I would. It would be in any kidnapped child's best interest.

MOO

 

[CloudedTruth]

I would answer that realisticly if someone does or says something that they did not have the authority to do it is invalid. Most people have the basic understanding of this while others keep perpetuating the falsehood.

From ABC News:
Former Adams County DA Bob Grant, one of a number of consultants on the case brought in early on by the Boulder County DA at the time, Hunter, told ABC News he was confounded by Lacy's 2008 decision. "This is craziness," he said. "This is not what prosecutors do. If prosecutors are going to exonerate someone they do it by charging someone else."

He was correct.....it isn't what prosecutors do. Mary Lacy decided well before she was the DA that the Ramseys were innocent because she was of the opinion that parents, specifically a mother could not do that to their child. It was beyond her comprehension. And then there's her absurd "butt imprint" claim she used to excuse the fact that she was making decisions based upon her personal opinion.

No matter what your personal opinion might be, as a prosecutor your job is to follow the evidence and not make decisions about a case based upon how your own emotions. That she did so shows inherent bias and not the objectiveness that a prosecutor should be operating by. She clearly did not understand the DNA evidence despite being warned by the scientists who did the DNA testing that it by no means "cleared" the Ramseys. In spite of this, she cleared them and sent a letter of apology. Interesting to note that prior to doing so, she had a private meeting with JR.

Another snippet from ABC News:
People who worked with Lacy remember her bringing John Ramsey into the Boulder County prosecutor's office around the time she exonerated the family. "She wanted us all to shake hands with him. We didn't know what to say ... it was like an apology tour," said one of Lacy's former DA investigators, Gordon Coombes.

Coombes, who worked in the Boulder prosecutor's office from 2008 to 2011, said he feels Lacy got too close to the family and lost her objectivity. "It was understood that if you didn't fall in line with the intruder theory, you were out," he said.

Another investigator who worked under Lacy, Ruth Aten-Shearwood, who is now a social worker in England, said that apart from a tight network of advisers, Lacy did not allow other investigators to work on the Ramsey case. Aten-Shearwood said she found out about the exoneration letter from watching the news. Said Aten-Shearwood, "I had to pick my jaw up off the floor."

And then of course we have the John Mark Kerr debacle. Despite being in possession of information that essentially ruled him out, Lacy decided that his email correspondence with Michael Tracey, yet another character with questionable motives was enough to send investigators to Thailand to arrest him and bring him back to the US. Flying in upper class for all at great expense to the taxpayers. All to bring him back to Colorado so he could be released from custody because he was proven by evidence already in possession by LE that he was not a match and that he was not even in Colorado at the time of the murder. Which if she had exercised any due diligence could've been vetted before the very expensive and irresponsible actions that were plastered all over the media.

The bias and incompetence in this case that Lacy exhibited is clearly evident and IMO inexcusable. She has been widely criticized for the decisions she made and rightly so. She did nothing to move this case forward. The unprofessionalism she displayed in this case is unacceptable.

 

[FMB]

According to the story, PR called the Whites, and then the Whites called other friends, and so on.

But, anyone who follows true crime understands that the longer a person is missing, the less likely they are to be alive. I think most parents would immediately call LE. I would. It would be in any kidnapped child's best interest.

MOO

Would it have made sense for Patsy to mention to Fleet that there is a ransom note with instructions not to invite friends over otherwise Jonebenet would be beheaded? Did Pasty and John have the power to NOT let all those people into their house or is Fleet calling all the shots??

Its pure nonsense to me that Patsy would call 9/11 and not mention the instructions in the RN when her daughters life depended on it.... Additionally why would John allow that?

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

From ABC News:
Former Adams County DA Bob Grant, one of a number of consultants on the case brought in early on by the Boulder County DA at the time, Hunter, told ABC News he was confounded by Lacy's 2008 decision. "This is craziness," he said. "This is not what prosecutors do. If prosecutors are going to exonerate someone they do it by charging someone else."

He was correct.....it isn't what prosecutors do. Mary Lacy decided well before she was the DA that the Ramseys were innocent because she was of the opinion that parents, specifically a mother could not do that to their child. It was beyond her comprehension. And then there's her absurd "butt imprint" claim she used to excuse the fact that she was making decisions based upon her personal opinion.

No matter what your personal opinion might be, as a prosecutor your job is to follow the evidence and not make decisions about a case based upon how your own emotions. That she did so shows inherent bias and not the objectiveness that a prosecutor should be operating by. She clearly did not understand the DNA evidence despite being warned by the scientists who did the DNA testing that it by no means "cleared" the Ramseys. In spite of this, she cleared them and sent a letter of apology. Interesting to note that prior to doing so, she had a private meeting with JR.

Another snippet from ABC News:
People who worked with Lacy remember her bringing John Ramsey into the Boulder County prosecutor's office around the time she exonerated the family. "She wanted us all to shake hands with him. We didn't know what to say ... it was like an apology tour," said one of Lacy's former DA investigators, Gordon Coombes.

Coombes, who worked in the Boulder prosecutor's office from 2008 to 2011, said he feels Lacy got too close to the family and lost her objectivity. "It was understood that if you didn't fall in line with the intruder theory, you were out," he said.

Another investigator who worked under Lacy, Ruth Aten-Shearwood, who is now a social worker in England, said that apart from a tight network of advisers, Lacy did not allow other investigators to work on the Ramsey case. Aten-Shearwood said she found out about the exoneration letter from watching the news. Said Aten-Shearwood, "I had to pick my jaw up off the floor."

And then of course we have the John Mark Kerr debacle. Despite being in possession of information that essentially ruled him out, Lacy decided that his email correspondence with Michael Tracey, yet another character with questionable motives was enough to send investigators to Thailand to arrest him and bring him back to the US. Flying in upper class for all at great expense to the taxpayers. All to bring him back to Colorado so he could be released from custody because he was proven by evidence already in possession by LE that he was not a match and that he was not even in Colorado at the time of the murder. Which if she had exercised any due diligence could've been vetted before the very expensive and irresponsible actions that were plastered all over the media.

The bias and incompetence in this case that Lacy exhibited is clearly evident and IMO inexcusable. She has been widely criticized for the decisions she made and rightly so. She did nothing to move this case forward. The unprofessionalism she displayed in this case is unacceptable.

It screams corruption, political pull, or pay off IMO

 

[Bean&Cheese]

Many,many things starting with the fact that he had to be stopped from booking a flight out of Boulder not even an hour after finding his murdered daughter.
The fact that his first and second thoughts within an hour of finding his murdered daughter were fleeing the state and lawyering up .
The RN, no signs of any intruder and JB being found in an obscure location, the WC.
I also will never believe that an intruder would take the time to write the War and Peace of RN's, using the Ramsey's notepad and pen, feed JB pineapple, and after all of that fail to take his kidnapping victim with him.
Utter nonsense.
Jmo

I’m not negating you here at all, but I would NOT want to sleep in the same house where my child was murdered (but, I would stay within the town to help however I could… I would not flee the state). Also, if I did do it and left the state, I would have gone to where many criminals go… Florida due to their laws on recording. I would like to know if plans were already in place to go to Atlanta before the murder? Had John been getting death threats at all? Or been blackmailed at all? This entire case is just so perplexing. I think that an intruder (a sadistic pedophile that somehow knew of the family- I think through St. John’s Episcopal Church) entered the home while the Ramseys were at the Whites house. I think he was wearing gloves (maybe even a Santa suit) and went through the house and got bored and wrote the ransom note just to try and add another level of torture for the family. This guy had been fantasizing about this for a long time; inspired by crime movies. Sadistic pedophiles start their acts around late teens/early twenties. I do think that the offender did stage the body as well… I think he probably took her actual panties as a souvenir and then put those ginormous underwear on her as he was working to display her as a “present” for John.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Would it have made sense for Patsy to mention to Fleet that there is a ransom note with instructions not to invite friends over otherwise Jonebenet would be beheaded? Did Pasty and John have the power to NOT let all those people into their house or is Fleet calling all the shots??

Its pure nonsense to me that Patsy would call 9/11 and not mention the instructions in the RN when her daughters life depended on it.... Additionally why would John allow that?

The White's didn't call the Fernies, Patsy did. She made both of those calls. She did not even tell the Fernies what was going on, John Fernie thought maybe JR had a heart attack.

This is all a big red flag IMO. She did not mention the RN instructions to 911, she only stayed on the line with them for 60 seconds. Then she immediately called the friends to come over without giving any details.

Then after being asked where he was when JR went missing for over an hour, he says he was in Burke's room with binoculars looking for who was watching them per the RN.

 

[Ponytale]

Well, I've said before that I'm pretty firmly in the FDI camp.

Yes, I have read your comments and I respect your opinion on that.

And for the past decade or so, John Ramsey himself has said he has suspicions that the killer was in their inner circle of friends.

I agree, but John has pointed his finger in any direction he could to point to someone outside the family. He also suspected of Fleet's wife. He is allowed to do that of course, but I'd sure see it more plausible if there were any reasons for doing so. Suspecting someone would need a reason to be suspicious, right? What are the reasons for John to suspect Fleet?

I think the motive for the killing was an obsession with JBR, and I think FW's history of tending to JBR's personal hygiene exacerbated the obsession.

But Fleet had been friends with the Ramsey's for a long time. I'd think that they had spent plenty of time together alone and with their families through the years. I think that if you call someone a "friend" or even a close friend, the person has to be more than just a colleague or an acquaintance. So, IMO, they must have developed a trusting relationship, especially knowing that their kids spent time playing together. I mean, as a parent myself - if I had any sketchy feelings towards an adult, I sure wouldn't let my kids play there or be around that person without my presence. If John and Patsy allowed their kids to play together at their house and be alone around Fleet, IMO, it does not point to any suspicious feelings/thoughts regarding them. It seems actually quite the opposite - they must have trusted them enough to let their kids spend time with them. IMO

Are there any indications that Fleet White enjoyed or expressed un-natural thoughts when talking about helping JB with her toileting issues? Were there any signs of obsession from Fleet towards JB? Photos, videos? Or even comments or observations by others? I have not seen any.

In Patsy's deposition, she was repeatedly asked why she had been so tired that night. She was also asked if she thought her family could have been drugged before they came home.

And, if I remember correctly, she stated that she did not believe that she was or thought of anything unusual.
Thinking about the day of the 25th - arguing with JB over what she should wear, packing things for the trip, having no help that day from the housekeeper, getting kids and herself ready for the party, taking along the gifts to drop off later, driving home with the kids excited and bubbly at the back seat of the car, planning and preparing the last minute things to do before the early morning flight - I see plenty of reasons why Patsy could have been more tired than usual that day. IMO

FW knew the layout of the Ramsey house, and he searched the basement earlier that day but claimed he didn't see her. After John found her, LE told FW to guard the door to the basement and not let anyone go down, but he ran down and picked up the duct tape that had been on JBR's mouth and put it on the blanket.

We can not prove his statement about searching the basement and not seeing her to be a lie, can we? It was stated somewhere (sorry, can't quote right now) that when John went to the Wine Cellar room the sun had already risen and was shining (or at least more light was coming through) through the boiler room window. It was early morning when Fleet went down there by himself and it was still dark outside - no light came from outside. It is possible that he did go there and opened the door, could not find the switch and did not see anything - we really can not argue that, can we?

I have a similar room in my basement that any of my family members, including myself, rarely enter. I have many guests that come to my house but they have never been to my basement. And even the few that may have been to my basement sure do not know where the light switch to that separate room is located and what is in that room. Even my 14 year old son asked about that light switch a couple of years ago as he was looking for it and didn't know where it was. And he has been living here his whole life. We just do not use that room that often.

Is the statement that LE (who?) asked Fleet (just Fleet and only Fleet not anyone else who was around) to guard the basement door (why wouldn't LE do it himself and would ask a random person to do that?) verified? Who made that statement and at what time was it made? Arndt? It must be in the Arndt's statements then. I will go and read that part again.

There are many possibilities why he went there and did what he did, IMO. If I could do an interview with Fleet, it would be one of the questions I sure would ask him. Why did he go back down? Why did he touch the tape? I mean, there must have been some kind of reason. What seemed odd for him?

In the days that followed, his behavior was anything but normal, when he started verbally attacking his hosts in GA.

There are many statements regarding that topic. They are all someone's opinions and interpretations of that situation. Some say there was nothing that serious or aggressive about the whole "confrontations", some say there is. It is one of the things that we will never know for sure. We know that emotions were high and people tend do see things differently in such situations. Since we were never there to witness it we can assume both ways.

But one of the biggest after-the-fact red flags for me was his demand to have a copy of his earlier deposition before he testified at the GJ. Does an honest person need to do that? Or one that is afraid he can't remember what he said before?

But what did he say that would be suspicious? Or incriminating? He did not change his statements and has been, IMO, quite honest. He sure seems to remember a lot more about things than Ramsey's themselves do. And if you look how much (or little) the Ramsey's have cooperated regarding this whole investigation and how much the Whites have, it does not seem to raise any red flags. IMO

Then he sued to get his GJ testimony record and he wrote rambling, disjointed letters to media and threatened to sue the PD.

But it also could be that he was just so frustrated with how the PD dealt with this investigation. He was also not pleased with how the Ramsey's did not cooperate. He must have had his reasons.

I mean. Again, I like to put myself into those situations. If I had a good friend who had such a crime happen in her house. And I know that family well - their demeanor, their way of living, talking, expressing emotions. And if I'd know them well enough to tell when they are being truthful and when they are not. I believe I could easily pick up on clues and random little things that others (LE) may not suspect or see strange. So if I'd notice something like that - something odd or just not right. I would be suspicious - what's going on here? Maybe I would go and do my own "research" to verify what has been said or confirm something for myself. Possibly... And after a few days, adding that the friends family does not really like to cooperate, travels out of state and does an interview with CNN... well. If it would not seem right to me and I'd believe something else was happening I would act the same way like the Whites did. - I would confront, I would ask for answers, I would go and tell them that they should cooperate. And I would do it myself if they didn't. I see it possible, don't you?

All my opinion, again.

 

[Bean&Cheese]

And know their way around the home to find new undies in a drawer, or a flashlight, pen, paper, navigate kitchen cupboards and drawers, not disrupt anything in the home, no struggle, no tripping over all the crap in the basement or house, no noise made, no screams heard, no exit through the 7 doors or 28 windows on the ground floor but preferred the slowest possible get away route, went through hours of effort to kidnap for a Ranson but said" oh screw it, I changed my mind, after all I'm not a kidnapper, I'm a pedo /killer and don't need the bounty after all.
Yea. It's pretty silly

I don’t believe the offender ever meant to kidnap her- he fully intended to SA and kill her

 

[Ponytale]

The White's didn't call the Fernies, Patsy did. She made both of those calls. She did not even tell the Fernies what was going on, John Fernie thought maybe JR had a heart attack.

This is all a big red flag IMO. She did not mention the RN instructions to 911, she only stayed on the line with them for 60 seconds. Then she immediately called the friends to come over without giving any details.

Then after being asked where he was when JR went missing for over an hour, he says he was in Burke's room with binoculars looking for who was watching them per the RN.

Yes, IMO - and I hope I do not offend anyone here - ,I think that the whole case could be solved just by looking only at the timeframe of from that 911 call to the time she was found.