If you look at it logically it's very clear who did it!

[Zodiac_Speaking]

This appears to be the most active thread that could (loosely?) be related to my question, and I hate to make a post just to ask one thing, so if I may ask the more informed (than me) posters here: The wine cellar door was, per Officer French, latched. According to FW, it was latched. Did John Ramsey claim the door was latched when he discovered JBR prior to turning on the light? If so, how did the IDI killer exit? I thought the suitcase was, in this theory, placed there to give a boost to the exiting murderer, but how could the door then be latched? Thanks in advance

Directly to your questions: I don't know if JR ever CLAMIED that the door was latched when he went in....

We know that FW moved the suitcase to where the crime scene photos show it to be....

As far as "how could the door then be latched" - Easy. Place the body in the wine cellar and leave, latching the door before you step away. The latch was on the outside of the door. The suitcase was technically in a different room, but adjacent to the wine cellar.

No one entered, or left, the HOUSE via the wine cellar. The suitcase and the window thing was another room entirely.

One final point - I can buy the IDI theory with someone coming *INTO* the window. However, leaving the home through the same window makes no sense. If you were the killer, you've already taken a little girl from her bed, possibly stun gunned her, SA her, bludgeoned her, strangled her.....and you want to get away. Why on Earth would you make your escape infinitely harder with a "mission impossible" style exit - possibly making a lot of noise - when you could simply walk right out any number of doors??? Remember: The IDI theory almost universally has the intruder in the house for HOURS before the Ramseys got home. Likely wandered all over that house - doors were readily available for exit. Just my 2 cents.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Directly to your questions: I don't know if JR ever CLAMIED that the door was latched when he went in....

We know that FW moved the suitcase to where the crime scene photos show it to be....

As far as "how could the door then be latched" - Easy. Place the body in the wine cellar and leave, latching the door before you step away. The latch was on the outside of the door. The suitcase was technically in a different room, but adjacent to the wine cellar.

No one entered, or left, the HOUSE via the wine cellar. The suitcase and the window thing was another room entirely.

One final point - I can buy the IDI theory with someone coming *INTO* the window. However, leaving the home through the same window makes no sense. If you were the killer, you've already taken a little girl from her bed, possibly stun gunned her, SA her, bludgeoned her, strangled her.....and you want to get away. Why on Earth would you make your escape infinitely harder with a "mission impossible" style exit - possibly making a lot of noise - when you could simply walk right out any number of doors??? Remember: The IDI theory almost universally has the intruder in the house for HOURS before the Ramseys got home. Likely wandered all over that house - doors were readily available for exit. Just my 2 cents.

Interesting @Zodiac_Speaking and rings quite true. And if I can carry from that…… as to a ‘supposed’ ‘intruder’ in the house for hours prior….. now one is supposed to believe IIUC the ‘case’ now relies on a few traces of some partial DNA or biological fluid on JBR or her clothing? SMH. Probably trace from some individual involved in the garment(s) manufacture, processing, or packaging of them.

So unfortunate IMO that the Boulder DA seemed to have intervened and hindered a good formal and full investigation and accountability. One needed for justice in the slaying of a young child. Still SMH. MOO

 

[Zodiac_Speaking]

Interesting @Zodiac_Speaking and rings quite true. And if I can carry from that…… as to a ‘supposed’ ‘intruder’ in the house for hours prior….. now one is supposed to believe IIUC the ‘case’ now relies on a few traces of some partial DNA or biological fluid on JBR or her clothing? SMH. Probably trace from some individual involved in the garment(s) manufacture, processing, or packaging of them.

So unfortunate IMO that the Boulder DA seemed to have intervened and hindered a good formal and full investigation and accountability. One needed for justice in the slaying of a young child. Still SMH. MOO

Just my opinion but - I believe JR and the family are pushing hard for the new testing for a few reasons....

1) It makes them look like they're "doing something" .... they're not
2) They already know that DNA could have *LITERALLY* come from a million different, completely innocent ways...
3) They already know the new testing will lead absolutely nowhere - which is fine by them because it will lead right back to square 1.

It's a win/win for the Ramseys with a dash of misinformation and a few dashes of hopeium. IE: same as it's been from day 1 - A smokescreen.

 

[proust20]

The R's numerous versions of events were a successful strategy meant to muddy the waters. None of the parents' statements were given under oath. At this time, neither John nor Burke can keep track of what they said, and they don't even try. 'Nebulous'? Sure, and it worked to their advantage. Note that JAR has assumed the role that BR should have. JAR was not in the home the night of the murder. Anything he says is hearsay. As an employee of LM, John should have called them before the police. The unrepaired window and a disengaged security system were violations of that defense contractor's policy. This could not have gone down well with the Corp.

Dr. B destroyed JonBenet's file. If it upheld the parents' narrative, he would not have done so. The parents should have been furious with him. Patsy claimed not to remember calling him repeatedly in one day. There was an emergency concerning the most important person in her life; but her loving mother just forgot what it was? Bed wetting is symptomatic of SA. The best evidence is the body of the victim.

SA is most likely done by a family member or care giver. The person who 'discovers' the body is commonly the killer. The vast majority of murder victims are done in by someone known to them. Killers often join in the hunt for the person responsible.

There is no credible IDI theory. Even the Rs never concocted one. There is zero evidence of an intruder. LS never performed his window manoeuvre under the exact conditions of Christmas night. The GJ rejected his viewpoint. Instead, they returned two inditements against each parent. AH lied about this. It was not known about for many years. BR testified. What did he say? Perhaps, he repeated: "I heard my Mom going psycho downstairs."

JB was subjected to two lethal attacks. It ought not be assumed that both were done by the same person. The staging shows knowledge of what had been happening to her. The stager(s) are not necessarily guilty of the murder. SA provides the best motive. Certainly, it is more cogent than an unsubstantiated extortion scheme.

Curiously, Patsy mentioned OJ on CNN. Like he, John has been pursuing the real culprits for 25+ years without results. Keep on truckin', dude. Also, on CNN, Patsy said that there were TWO people "out there" who knew what happened. Hmm...

 

[CrimeTheorist]

With regards to the window, it's interesting that Lou Smit demonstrated how easy it was to enter through it but never, as far as I'm aware, going out. I believe his theory of stepping on the suitcase to leave through the window would not have been easy for most people.

 

[CrimeTheorist]

Is it true that a hammer was taken into evidence? I'm starting to think that BR saying that she might have been hit with a hammer wasn't just a guess. It seems like it would make perfect sense with it having a flat surface and being heavy enough to cause that serious of an injury. He later says maybe she was stabbed but I think he might have said that after because he realized he had said something he shouldn't have. JMO

 

[concernedcitizen706]

So does anybody have more information about the ancestry of the DNA found? I heard that it showed likely to come from an Asian or Hispanic male. I think nowadays they can figure that out pretty well.

If they prove that to be true, then that is even less likely to show that an intruder did it. Because the world they lived in was very white.

If you read my above post, I believe the DNA came from the paintbrush or some rag or napkin in contact with the paintbrush. Like I theorized above, I don't think the rag was the same rag used the clean her off. Or the DNA would have gotten in more places. So it was a secondary rag. Used to manipulate the paintbrush at the last moment.

I don't think it was from the paintbrush handle itself, because the chances are too high that other family members DNA were on that paintbrush handle. So if the paint brush was used, some type of rag was used to hold the paintbrush handle.

If the DNA came from a Hispanic male, I'm wondering if the rag was a paper napkin from a fast food place, that they got from their trash at home. Maybe it was some napkins in the bottom of a paper bag from some drive-thru, that JonBenet got, and the napkins were never used. They should test other random fast food napkins, to see how much DNA is left on it.

I guess a lot of other things could have been used. I'm thinking one of the cleanup cloths from Patsy's art supplies. Maybe the perp opened up a new package for that.

Although on the other hand, it couldn't have been just anything in the house though, because it would need to be something without the DNA of anyone else in the family besides jbr. So it couldn't be like an old t-shirt or sock lying around. Because chances are, it would have gotten in contact with one of the other family members.

So it would have to be something from the house, but not in contact with other items in the house.

That suggests something that came from a closed package.

So yeah maybe some napkins, or anything else made of paper or cloth, from a closed package. Like maybe that extra large underwear from the package, or some paper napkins from a closed package, some clean up cloths from a closed package. I'm trying to think what else it could be, but I can't really think of too many other things.

And that the DNA came from the manufacturer.

 

[Ponytale]

Is it true that a hammer was taken into evidence? I'm starting to think that BR saying that she might have been hit with a hammer wasn't just a guess. It seems like it would make perfect sense with it having a flat surface and being heavy enough to cause that serious of an injury. He later says maybe she was stabbed but I think he might have said that after because he realized he had said something he shouldn't have. JMO

Yes, a hammer was taken into the evidence.
(Source: Ramsey warrant dated December 27, 1996)

 

[Swirlz]

Is it true that a hammer was taken into evidence? I'm starting to think that BR saying that she might have been hit with a hammer wasn't just a guess. It seems like it would make perfect sense with it having a flat surface and being heavy enough to cause that serious of an injury. He later says maybe she was stabbed but I think he might have said that after because he realized he had said something he shouldn't have. JMO

A hammer was taken into evidence but neither John or Patsy is asked about it. I doubt an elementary school aged child could figure it out to try to fool investigators by saying she was stabbed as a cover for having said she'd been hit with a hammer.

 

[proust20]

FW moved the suitcase. Its original position was not documented. The contents were a semen stained comforter of JAR's and a naughty Dr. Seuss book. Why the suitcase was in the basement has not been explained. John said that it was out of place. Where was it supposed to be? LS did not go through the window at night, and he did not descend into a dark room. There is no evidence that the grate had been removed and/or put back. Moreover, according to this particular IDI, at what time did the intruder(s) pass through it? In an case, this theory led nowhere.

Yes. John hired ($$$) many 'experts', who came up with nothing. JD had a weak grasp of the facts. It's 2025 and Team R is empty handed still.

This is not a DNA case. But, it's good PR for John to go that route. (Hey - Look over here!) If there were intruder(s), to whom could it be matched at this late date? DNA cannot explain away the pineapple, the size 12s, the RN, the 911 call, Barbie nightgown, white blanket, "I don't feel pretty.", et al.

 

[887sMtreme]

<respectfully snipped for focus>
The IDI theory almost universally has the intruder in the house for HOURS before the Ramseys got home. Likely wandered all over that house - doors were readily available for exit. Just my 2 cents.

Although I am not IDI, I would guess an intruder would fear that opening a door would set off an alarm, unless the intruder somehow knew the Ramseys had stopped activating their system. Again, I don’t subscribe to the IDI theory.

 

[CloudedTruth]

FW moved the suitcase. Its original position was not documented. The contents were a semen stained comforter of JAR's and a naughty Dr. Seuss book. Why the suitcase was in the basement has not been explained. John said that it was out of place. Where was it supposed to be? LS did not go through the window at night, and he did not descend into a dark room. There is no evidence that the grate had been removed and/or put back. Moreover, according to this particular IDI, at what time did the intruder(s) pass through it? In an case, this theory led nowhere.

Yes. John hired ($$$) many 'experts', who came up with nothing. JD had a weak grasp of the facts. It's 2025 and Team R is empty handed still.

This is not a DNA case. But, it's good PR for John to go that route. (Hey - Look over here!) If there were intruder(s), to whom could it be matched at this late date? DNA cannot explain away the pineapple, the size 12s, the RN, the 911 call, Barbie nightgown, white blanket, "I don't feel pretty.", et al.

IIRC, JR said he brought the suitcase down to the basement from JAR’s room just before the holidays. PR was packing for two trips for all of them in JAR’s bedroom.

JR only hired “experts” who agreed with the intruder narrative. There actually weren’t all that many of them. Some they approached declined to work with the Ramseys. I don’t think the plan ever was to hire a bigger team of truly unbiased experts devoted to solving the case and uncovering the truth. They needed to find people who would promote what they wanted promoted.

 

[proust20]

@CloudedTruth

TY. Now I recall John discussing the suitcase, as you say. Its contents are another peculiar detail of the case. I suppose JAR was questioned about it. Obviously, he did not need to use it on his trip from GA to meet up with the family.

JR's only excuse for lack of progress in his 'investigation' is LE incompetence. He has no answer as to why the GJ returned inditements.

Not only would the intruder(s) have to know that the security system was not operating; but also, that Jacques was at the neighbors'.

 

[CloudedTruth]

@proust20

Yes, Jar was questioned about the suitcase. He had replaced the duvet with something else and brought the duvet in the suitcase to be washed, but he had not yet washed it or asked it to be washed. He was a college kid. I wonder how many unwashed duvets / comforters / bedspreads / blankets of young men the same age might have some semen on them. The book was a gift from his girlfriend. There's really nothing all that mysterious or suspicious here.

JR has made the "LE incompetence" excuse pretty much since day one. Despite having paid "experts" and private investigators on his payroll, no one has found anything of significance that the police had not already found. He not only has no answer for why the GJ returned two indictments against each parent, he has also said in interviews that they were ready to turn themselves in if indicted but the GJ said "no", which is a bald faced lie.

 

[claudicici]

Oh and in his latest interviews he claims not knowing where the backpack in JAR room came from when in the early police interviews it was already established it was JAR backpack

 

[AddieBoo]

IANAL. And I can gladly agree to disagree on this point and many others associated with this case. One would really ask need to ask the DAs office why no one has been prosecuted in this case. I wish I knew the answer to that.

With regard to how a DA and their offices function or operate, I also have no idea. But with respect to this case, something seems IMO rather unusual with respect to the pronounced DA involvement and intervention in this case. And unfortunately little has happened since December 1996 to provide any assurance of how this case was investigated, assessed, or considered for prosecution.

As an individual not at all associated with the case, and not a resident of Colorado, all that there should be IMO is justice for the death and murder of a young child JBR. IMO that is all that matters. Sadly there has been no justice for her. And IMO until that justice is pursued and attained, unfortunately there’s really nothing more to be gained from it. Very sad IMO. MOO

There have been comments on other sites about charging John Ramsey with obstruction of justice…

This case is not a usual prosecutorial case due to all the seen and unseen machinations of the judicial system in Colorado. I am not on board with, Well the DA didn’t have enough evidence to prosecute so the DA squashed the case. Far too many moving parts behind the scene to believe that.
As Sherlock pointed out.. the prosecution of this case, et al is a topic all its own. Well worth the dive, if nothing else to remove any rose colored glasses about what justice for JonBenet has meant for the past 29 years. It’s abysmal and very sad.
MOO

 

[CloudedTruth]

There have been comments on other sites about charging John Ramsey with obstruction of justice…

This case is not a usual prosecutorial case due to all the seen and unseen machinations of the judicial system in Colorado. I am not on board with, Well the DA didn’t have enough evidence to prosecute so the DA squashed the case. Far too many moving parts behind the scene to believe that.
As Sherlock pointed out.. the prosecution of this case, et al is a topic all its own. Well worth the dive, if nothing else to remove any rose colored glasses about what justice for JonBenet has meant for the past 29 years. It’s abysmal and very sad.
MOO

I agree.

That said, I also agree that prosecution likely would not have resulted in a guilty verdict or verdicts. But, the actions of the DA and his office in this case are very questionable. Unprecedented. And I think Hunter deserved to have been charged with prosecutorial misconduct. So much has been made about the mistakes made by police on the 26th in particular, and those criticisms are absolutely warranted. 100%. No argument there. But one really needs to look both at the big picture and what happened from then on. While acknowledging the mistakes made, the Boulder PD were not the bad guys. And the DA's office played a major role in painting a public perception of incompetence throughout the investigation.

While some like to label it "conspiracy theorist", the back channel that existed between the DA's office and Haddon & Morgan et al on team Ramsey cannot be ignored. There are some well known and very long term connections there that surely played a role in how everything went down. The Ramseys had a pretty thick layer of protection. This is obvious and undeniable.

Even a not so deep dive into DA Hunter's track record with cases that crossed his desk, and in particular cases that involved child and the abuse of children reveals unexplained leniency. Under the guise of saving taxpayers money by hardly ever prosecuting anything no matter the evidence or worthiness, he put offenders back on the streets who then fled the state & justice or offended again. When it involves the abuse of vulnerable children, IMO that is inexcusable and a dereliction of his sworn duty to keep our communities safe. It is a topic all its own. And it opens the discussion up to why the Ramseys were treated with kid gloves. And just who was in assist behind the scenes to make all of it go away.

Despite their claims of being the victims in this case, it remains that the true victim is the one who lost her life. That's JonBenet Ramsey. It's also plainly evident that the big effort put forth was not to uncover the truth and to find her killer, but to keep LE at arm's length from the truth. They have been the biggest hindrance in exposing the truth of what happened that night. I can understand hiring lawyers. That's smart. But hiring a PR team?? And then they proceeded to hide behind the cover that both the lawyers and the PR team gave them, claiming they were being targeted. If you do not actively work to clear yourselves, what do you expect?

It is truly sad that there will probably never be true justice for the victim in this case, JonBenet. She deserves justice. She deserves so much more than the charade perpetrated by the most part by her own family, that has followed her death.

 

[GRT]

This is not a DNA case. But, it's good PR for John to go that route. (Hey - Look over here!) If there were intruder(s), to whom could it be matched at this late date? DNA cannot explain away the pineapple, the size 12s, the RN, the 911 call, Barbie nightgown, white blanket, "I don't feel pretty.", et al.

But, why would he go that route?

I always come back to asking why a man would beg for nearly 30 years for police to keep investigating a case if he was the killer?

DNA may not answer all those details, but it could tell us who killed JonBenet.

 

[SunRecordFan1952]

I don’t know… the fact that multiple people couldn’t find her seems like it wouldn’t have been staged… I will say that if Patsy had called after finding Jonbenet’s body, it would have looked VERY bad for John and Patsy. Jonbenet died at 1 in the morning, her body was found in the basement 12 hours later at 1 pm. That’s where it gets a little fishy, how could they not find her for 12 hours. She was in the basement.

 

[proust20]

If AH had a history of declining to persecute, that position of his preceded the JBR case. Given this professional reluctance, it cannot be assumed with complete confidence that the GJ inditements formed the basis of an unwinnable case. We do not know what evidence was presented, and there is no way to ascertain what may have developed during the trial, a la Perry Mason. (haha) After all, the purpose of their attorneys and political contacts was to shield the parents from this type of legal exposure under oath in front of a judge/jury. If the case against the parents were in fact winnable, does anyone believe that AH actually would have proceeded with it? John let his money do the testifying.

What was the nature of the endangerment to which JonBenet was subjected by her parents? The GJ was not hallucinating about JB's mistreatment. It is not known to what Burke testified. If it all were so absurd, why should AH cover it up for years? He could have dismissed it as a bit of nonsense, instead of clamming up. Later ML, also disregarded the inditements. She focused on what she perceived as butt prints on the carpet as exculpatory!

The Rs have always claimed LE incompetence. On the other hand, they did nothing to help in the investigation for months. They asserted that BPD did not know what they were doing; and yet they did nothing to lead LE in a productive direction. Polygraphs are inadmissible. Although the Rs could not be harmed in court by them, they refused to take the tests. No doubt the lawyers reasonably advised this. In doing so, John & Patsy chose to live under a cloud of suspicion, which persists until today. Instead they chose CNN in order to establish their status as self-proclaimed 'victims'. Drugging Patsy was clever, as anything she might reveal could be attributed to her being out of it.

Had LHP been made aware that JAR's comforter needed to be washed? The suitcase was not in the laundry area. It it were laundry, why include the book with it? IMO no detail ought to be counted out in the mystery. JAR's bed was a rat's nest, just like JB's

I am curious if anyone has ideas about the pillow found in the kitchen? JB's bed seems to be missing one at its head; although there seems to be another one semi-hidden at its bottom under clothes, et al. More staging? To what end?