IL IL - John Wayne Gacy

[JussSumguy]

Dean was definitely the killer. One of the boys was 14 when they met Dean and Brooks was 12 when he met him. There were people that actually got away after being Raped because Brooks talked him out of killing them. Dean was the one who rented the boat stall, and had enquired about getting another one......because his was full. His family had a cabin at lake Sam Rayburn where other bodies were found. It was Deans house where he was killed. He was naked, had plastic sheeting on the floor and a torture board. In his white van they found other things like a wooden crate that had human hair, and blood inside.

Again I am not saying he wasn't involved or that he was a good dude, I bet he killed a lot of people, but is there definitive proof that he was the one who buried the bodies at the boat stall?

No one is disputing that Gacey had bodies buried under his home, but there is a little bit of question whether it was all him, or if maybe some of the older college aged boys he had around may have slipped a few more in while he was out on a job

Could be the same for Corl, could others have used his boat stall, maybe they already knew he had used it because they helped him bury a body there and when whoever else they were affiliated with needed a place to bury more they said why not the stall

Or, maybe he was just the fall guy and the boat stall documents were faked


Taking everything at face value and just believing what "they" tell us might not lead us to the truth.... or it might, but it seems fair to question, particularly with what happened after Norman moved up to Illinois

 

[snooptroop88]

Again I am not saying he wasn't involved or that he was a good dude, I bet he killed a lot of people, but is there definitive proof that he was the one who buried the bodies at the boat stall?

No one is disputing that Gacey had bodies buried under his home, but there is a little bit of question whether it was all him, or if maybe some of the older college aged boys he had around may have slipped a few more in while he was out on a job

Could be the same for Corl, could others have used his boat stall, maybe they already knew he had used it because they helped him bury a body there and when whoever else they were affiliated with needed a place to bury more they said why not the stall

Or, maybe he was just the fall guy and the boat stall documents were faked


Taking everything at face value and just believing what "they" tell us might not lead us to the truth.... or it might, but it seems fair to question, particularly with what happened after Norman moved up to Illinois

JMO, this is an excellent point.

And why'd he have a boat shed? Why a boat shed rather than some more traditional type of storage unit? Was there at one time an actual boat? Because a boat shed-- is a boat shed. Self-storage actually originated in Texas in the mid-60s, there had to be "tin garage" set ups Corll could have found, also with dirt floors because they were pretty much barn-like set ups. I don't know why someone with no boat opted for a boat shed. The dirt floors weren't exclusive to boat sheds at the time.

 

[Leprikawn]

Again I am not saying he wasn't involved or that he was a good dude, I bet he killed a lot of people, but is there definitive proof that he was the one who buried the bodies at the boat stall?

No one is disputing that Gacey had bodies buried under his home, but there is a little bit of question whether it was all him, or if maybe some of the older college aged boys he had around may have slipped a few more in while he was out on a job

Could be the same for Corl, could others have used his boat stall, maybe they already knew he had used it because they helped him bury a body there and when whoever else they were affiliated with needed a place to bury more they said why not the stall

Or, maybe he was just the fall guy and the boat stall documents were faked


Taking everything at face value and just believing what "they" tell us might not lead us to the truth.... or it might, but it seems fair to question, particularly with what happened after Norman moved up to Illinois

Gacy said that a guy named Peitz helped him and was involved in the killings. In Deans case there were bodies in the boat shed that predated him knowing Henley. Brookes was there before Henley. Workers at the Corll candy company, where David Brookes met him when he was 12, said when the company was closing up Dean put concrete over the floor in the basement.....a place where Dean buried "old candy!"
I believe Dean had other teenagers helping him before Brookes and Henley and then killed them as well. Other investigators over the years have said the same.

In Norman's news letters some of Deans victims were in the pages. I think Norman was heavily involved and was not afraid of getting caught because he always got a slap on the wrist.......right up until the day he died. I dont doubt that Dean was the one who had a hand in killing all of these boys after he "had his fun." Henley and Brookes were 2 victims of Dean as well who are being punished for what they did. Henley should have went to the police as soon as he found out that Corll had killed the hitchhiker......but I dont know if the police would have believed him considering they thought he was lying, and that the kids were all runaways.

 

[JussSumguy]

Gacy said that a guy named Peitz helped him and was involved in the killings. In Deans case there were bodies in the boat shed that predated him knowing Henley. Brookes was there before Henley. Workers at the Corll candy company, where David Brookes met him when he was 12, said when the company was closing up Dean put concrete over the floor in the basement.....a place where Dean buried "old candy!"
I believe Dean had other teenagers helping him before Brookes and Henley and then killed them as well. Other investigators over the years have said the same.

In Norman's news letters some of Deans victims were in the pages. I think Norman was heavily involved and was not afraid of getting caught because he always got a slap on the wrist.......right up until the day he died. I dont doubt that Dean was the one who had a hand in killing all of these boys after he "had his fun." Henley and Brookes were 2 victims of Dean as well who are being punished for what they did. Henley should have went to the police as soon as he found out that Corll had killed the hitchhiker......but I dont know if the police would have believed him considering they thought he was lying, and that the kids were all runaways.

I just don't see how you can have 'no doubt' that Dean killed them all

Think of it like this, in the history of the US:

How many people have been convicted of killing 30 or more people?

How many people have buried 20+ people in one location?

How many people have killed 20+ teen(ish) aged boys?



These are two very very rare cases, maybe the only 2 of their kind, and they both have a direct link to a service running the exact type of victims that were discovered, to me that leaves some doubt, however much is up to each of our own interpretations

And what I just said doesn't even get into the handcuffs, I mean the two perpetrators even used the exact same MO's

It is a lot of coincidences to just write off because of the official narrative

 

[Leprikawn]

I just don't see how you can have 'no doubt' that Dean killed them all

Think of it like this, in the history of the US:

How many people have been convicted of killing 30 or more people?

How many people have buried 20+ people in one location?

How many people have killed 20+ teen(ish) aged boys?



These are two very very rare cases, maybe the only 2 of their kind, and they both have a direct link to a service running the exact type of victims that were discovered, to me that leaves some doubt, however much is up to each of our own interpretations

And what I just said doesn't even get into the handcuffs, I mean the two perpetrators even used the exact same MO's

It is a lot of coincidences to just write off because of the official narrative

There was a connection with Norman and Corll and Gacy.........The stretch is when you say that Henley and Brooks were covering for someone in the organization. Henley spoke to the police about the organization within Days of the crimes.

Pedo's seem to find each other. just Look at NAMBLA.

 

[JussSumguy]

Henley spoke to the police about the organization within Days of the crimes.

Pedo's seem to find each other. just Look at NAMBLA.

He mentioned the organization, but he didn't give any names or anything to catch anyone did he? He could have known more and been covering for them, he could have not known more and truly thought Corll did all the killing just for fun when in fact Corll was doing it because he had been ordered to, we will never know

Of course this theory is a stretch, but so is the current truth! These two unicorn cases with the same guy linked at the top NOT being connected is a stretch, to me that is harder to believe then that they aren't connected, or at least equally as hard to believe


Unless you can show me a lot of other cases where dozens of teen(ish) aged boys were found together in mass grave sites

The closest case I can think of is Atlanta, but they were dumped in separate locations, and there are plenty of questions about whether he did all of those or if many of them just got pinned on him to close some cases and calm down the public

 

[snooptroop88]

He mentioned the organization, but he didn't give any names or anything to catch anyone did he? He could have known more and been covering for them, he could have not known more and truly thought Corll did all the killing just for fun when in fact Corll was doing it because he had been ordered to, we will never know

Of course this theory is a stretch, but so is the current truth! These two unicorn cases with the same guy linked at the top NOT being connected is a stretch, to me that is harder to believe then that they aren't connected, or at least equally as hard to believe


Unless you can show me a lot of other cases where dozens of teen(ish) aged boys were found together in mass grave sites

The closest case I can think of is Atlanta, but they were dumped in separate locations, and there are plenty of questions about whether he did all of those or if many of them just got pinned on him to close some cases and calm down the public

(respectfully bolded)

This^ 100% agreed, there's more to this.

And the fact that the perp used teen accomplices. Corll did, and Gacy is suspected to have had them. It's never been confirmed and will jmo remain a tragic mystery, whatever the reality of it is.

But that doesn't mean that when people are trying to find or match for potential victims, they should have to assume all the cards are on the table, so to speak. Because they probably aren't.

 

[Nadal]

Gacy never mentioned anything about Norman or Paske until Paske was arrested then suddenly it was all them. It was always Cram and Rossi he blamed until suddenly he remembered it was Paske too when people started to mention the connection. It was nonsense IMO just something else for Gacy to blame he would have said it years before he did if there was any validity to it or if he knew Paske was involved in the sorts of things he was.

Paske working for Gacy really wasn't unusual he was a young man from Chicago who looked like many of Gacy's victims. Gacy stalked the Bus Station and other areas young wayward males like Paske were known to hang out. He killed some of them, others he simply hired. Gacy hiring them wasn't just about his crimes it was also for the cheap labour, he was an extremely hard worker who was very devoted to his business he typically worked all day (or volunteered, clowned, etc) then abused and killed the victims in the early hours of the morning. He was always on the lookout for victims and workers and not every young male he ensnared was an intended victim they were simply labour.

 

[Nadal]

He mentioned the organization, but he didn't give any names or anything to catch anyone did he? He could have known more and been covering for them, he could have not known more and truly thought Corll did all the killing just for fun when in fact Corll was doing it because he had been ordered to, we will never know

Of course this theory is a stretch, but so is the current truth! These two unicorn cases with the same guy linked at the top NOT being connected is a stretch, to me that is harder to believe then that they aren't connected, or at least equally as hard to believe


Unless you can show me a lot of other cases where dozens of teen(ish) aged boys were found together in mass grave sites

The closest case I can think of is Atlanta, but they were dumped in separate locations, and there are plenty of questions about whether he did all of those or if many of them just got pinned on him to close some cases and calm down the public

Luis Garavito. He had individual mass graves with more victims than either Gacy or Corll are known for in total and there were a bunch of them.

 

[Leprikawn]

Luis Garavito. He had individual mass graves with more victims than either Gacy or Corll are known for in total and there were a bunch of them.

herb Baumeister is another one. They are still finding remains on his property years later.

 

[INfisherman]

herb Baumeister is another one. They are still finding remains on his property years later.

Yeah - he was a monster hiding in plain sight. That case still sticks out, as I was a young adult & it just came out of nowhere.

I believe most of the remains were found during the original excavations. Most finds these days are with search dogs or walking the property & aren’t likely additional victims but just more remains of those originally found. However, local authorities are still actively trying to identify some of the remains originally found on Fox Hollow Farm in the 90s & a few have been identified in the past few years. There have been discussions of more excavations but nothing has amounted to much recently.

JMO

 

[JussSumguy]

Gacy never mentioned anything about Norman or Paske until Paske was arrested then suddenly it was all them. It was always Cram and Rossi he blamed until suddenly he remembered it was Paske too when people started to mention the connection. It was nonsense IMO just something else for Gacy to blame he would have said it years before he did if there was any validity to it or if he knew Paske was involved in the sorts of things he was.

Paske working for Gacy really wasn't unusual he was a young man from Chicago who looked like many of Gacy's victims. Gacy stalked the Bus Station and other areas young wayward males like Paske were known to hang out. He killed some of them, others he simply hired. Gacy hiring them wasn't just about his crimes it was also for the cheap labour, he was an extremely hard worker who was very devoted to his business he typically worked all day (or volunteered, clowned, etc) then abused and killed the victims in the early hours of the morning. He was always on the lookout for victims and workers and not every young male he ensnared was an intended victim they were simply labour.

Maybe Gacy hadn't thought of Paske because he had no reason to suspect him of anything

Or maybe Gacy didn't mention the Paske/Norman thing until later, because he was afraid for his life

From what I've read both Gacy and Corll had very open door policies, have as many boys and young men hanging out at their houses all the time, whether they were home or not (possibly moreso Gacy than Corll)

As you mention Gacy was known to be out and about all day and night, so he could have hired someone like Paske, Paske could have played like he was just your average kid, and they could have planted the bodies (or some of the bodies) while Gacy was out and about as he always was

There are numerous possibilities here, and not all of them have Gacy knowing what is going on

Garavito was outside the US, not really a comparable case

Baumeister's victims appear to mostly be adult males, not teen boys, he met most of them at gay bars, not really the same but definitely similarities

 

[Nadal]

Maybe Gacy hadn't thought of Paske because he had no reason to suspect him of anything

Or maybe Gacy didn't mention the Paske/Norman thing until later, because he was afraid for his life

From what I've read both Gacy and Corll had very open door policies, have as many boys and young men hanging out at their houses all the time, whether they were home or not (possibly moreso Gacy than Corll)

As you mention Gacy was known to be out and about all day and night, so he could have hired someone like Paske, Paske could have played like he was just your average kid, and they could have planted the bodies (or some of the bodies) while Gacy was out and about as he always was

There are numerous possibilities here, and not all of them have Gacy knowing what is going on

Garavito was outside the US, not really a comparable case

Baumeister's victims appear to mostly be adult males, not teen boys, he met most of them at gay bars, not really the same but definitely similarities

Why would he suddenly feel safe when Norman was still out there and when it was allegedly a huge Organization full of high up people? The idea that Paske would get to him on Death Row is just silly. If Paske was this Rorschach like figure then why was Gacy hiring him in the first place? Why keep that documentation?

Gacy was only able to have young men around from 1975-1978 when his second wife moved out, he did have young men over at times from 71-75 but not as often. Almost all of his victims are from his wife moving out on, there's only i think 3 beforehand all of which were when his wife and stepdaughter were out. Corll was the one with the much more open door policy since he lived alone or with Brooks.

So now Gacy is innocent and Paske killed all the victims? They just happened to find a dude who abused Donald Voorhees in the same manner he would his murder victims without the murder and served a long sentence for it, then as soon as he got out was accused of abusing two others in the same way? Then what about Jeffrey Rignall? He survived and said it was Gacy.

The problem with what you are saying is when people asked Gacy about Paske he suddenly started claiming he did know what was going on and it was Paske and Norman. Didn't say a single word about him for years before.

You are moving the goalposts you didn't say US only and someone below mentioned Herb Baumeister. We also have William Bonin, Randy Kraft, Patrick Kearney, etc in the same era killing numerous young men.

There's plenty of differences between Corll and Gacy too. Gacy buried his victims under his home, Corll did elsewhere. Corll definitely had accomplices, it's unproven speculation that Gacy did. Gacy ensnared his victims himself from known hotspots young men hung around, Corll relied on his accomplices. The similarities largely came from Gacy reading about Corll that's where he got the handcuff trick and the torture board (which he disliked and only did once).

 

[snooptroop88]

Nobody would ever, ever dream of saying Corll OR Gacy was "innocent." They're the sick monsters behind the horrors. But I think the issue here is more examining this while pondering if you completely removed Gacy and Corll from the equation, would everything have *poof* disappeared, no horrors ever happened? It would all be like a bad dream that never happened? And that's where the issues and questions begin to multiply.

This is about the respective frameworks they created around themselves in order to execute their "plans." There are of course going to be differences, but the similarities are a little too striking to ignore. They both dangled financial rewards before the eyes of young men to get things to "go their way." They arguably built businesses that were so intimately connected with their activities, it almost makes you wonder if the businesses were to some extent built around their murderous aims. The candy store. The contracting and offers of jobs for young guys. Both Corll and Gacy have a guarantee of contact with young males via their criminally used entrepreneurship. There's an alarming level of sophistication in terms of the way these two sick freaks went about pursuing their twisted ends.

It's a question of access to the mechanisms and system in place to carry out these absolutely stupefying acts. When there's increased access, there's increased opportunity for other murders and other murderers. There are infinite opportunities for lies, manipulation, and complete distortion of reality/the truth. The more access, the higher the level of sophistication involved, the more the line between the world of horrifying darkness they've created and "legitimacy" have been blurred-- jmo, the higher the chances that other crimes of a of an equal or lesser nature can be wiped away like they ever existed.

 

[Nadal]

Nobody would ever, ever dream of saying Corll OR Gacy was "innocent." They're the sick monsters behind the horrors. But I think the issue here is more examining this while pondering if you completely removed Gacy and Corll from the equation, would everything have *poof* disappeared, no horrors ever happened? It would all be like a bad dream that never happened? And that's where the issues and questions begin to multiply.

This is about the respective frameworks they created around themselves in order to execute their "plans." There are of course going to be differences, but the similarities are a little too striking to ignore. They both dangled financial rewards before the eyes of young men to get things to "go their way." They arguably built businesses that were so intimately connected with their activities, it almost makes you wonder if the businesses were to some extent built around their murderous aims. The candy store. The contracting and offers of jobs for young guys. Both Corll and Gacy have a guarantee of contact with young males via their criminally used entrepreneurship. There's an alarming level of sophistication in terms of the way these two sick freaks went about pursuing their twisted ends.

It's a question of access to the mechanisms and system in place to carry out these absolutely stupefying acts. When there's increased access, there's increased opportunity for other murders and other murderers. There are infinite opportunities for lies, manipulation, and complete distortion of reality/the truth. The more access, the higher the level of sophistication involved, the more the line between the world of horrifying darkness they've created and "legitimacy" have been blurred-- jmo, the higher the chances that other crimes of a of an equal or lesser nature can be wiped away like they ever existed.

Money is the most obvious grooming tool c'mon. Corll and Gacy weren't similar as businessmen. Corll was usually broke that's why he had Henley and Brooks going around committing robberies and likely why he was involved with Roy Ames (Ames is why Corll victims were in Norman's catalogues there's no evidence Corll ever met Norman) as Ames paid him to photograph the young men he was involved with nude. During most of his crimes Corll was a part time electrician he wasn't running the candy factory anymore.

Gacy was very successful otoh in fact Gacy had two very successful lives. His first life in Iowa managing KFC Stores before that crumbled with his sentence for the Donald Voorhees abuse then his Contracting Company in Illinois after he was released. Gacy was also incredibly social unlike Corll. He was intimately involved in the Jaycee's, organized the Polish Day Parade, he was a popular Clown, he volunteered throughout his life when he was a teenager he hung around with Priests (sounds like a bad and offensive joke but it's true) and constantly volunteered to help in Church events to the point that the Priests were telling him he should calm down and go and have a social life. Corll was the furthest thing from all of that he was an introvert, Gacy was a major extrovert.

There are similarities certainly some of those were due to Gacy reading about Corll others were more coincidental.

 

[JussSumguy]

Why would he suddenly feel safe when Norman was still out there and when it was allegedly a huge Organization full of high up people?
Maybe he didn't feel safe, maybe he just didn't care about sitting in a cell any longer

Or maybe he knew whoever was above Norman in the network had died, that Norman was old and locked up, and the odds of anything happening to him were slim, and even if they did he didn't care

Or maybe he just got sick of being the one locked up for other people and decided it was time to speak out

The idea that Paske would get to him on Death Row is just silly. If Paske was this Rorschach like figure then why was Gacy hiring him in the first place? Why keep that documentation?
Who said Paske would get to him on death row or was some Rorschach like figure? If this network can keep a guy like Norman out and about they certainly could get an inmate killed, and of the infinite possibilities here Gacy may have had no clue Paske was connected to Norman (or he might have, who knows)

Gacy was only able to have young men around from 1975-1978 when his second wife moved out, he did have young men over at times from 71-75 but not as often.

And when was Norman in Illinois? Oh, thats right, the mid 70's around the time Gacy was most active, another random coincidence I am sure

So now Gacy is innocent and Paske killed all the victims?

No one has said anything even closely resembling this

Then what about Jeffrey Rignall? He survived and said it was Gacy.
Nobody said Gacy was a good guy, I am sure he had many victims

The problem with what you are saying is when people asked Gacy about Paske he suddenly started claiming he did know what was going on and it was Paske and Norman. Didn't say a single word about him for years before.

As covered, there are numerous reasons why he may not want to speak up at that time, in the 1980's he still could have held out hope that one day he may get let out or escape, a decade in a cell could change your mind don't you think?

You are moving the goalposts you didn't say US only and someone below mentioned Herb Baumeister. We also have William Bonin, Randy Kraft, Patrick Kearney, etc in the same era killing numerous young men.
Of course US matters more than anywhere else when we are talking about the US, a guy in a third world country killing 300+ is a completely different situation

Herb mostly killed adult males, there are as many 30 and 40 year olds as teens
Thank you for mentioning the others, Kearney seems pretty similar to these two, but according to what I read only 2 of his victims were prostitutes (that they know of) and he didn't bury everyone in the same place

Randy Kraft's victims were mostly adults, and as far as I can see they only think 1 was a prostitute, also no mass burial (crimes seem very similar though, driving around looking for guys and offering drugs and alcohol before abusing and killing)

Bonin also didn't bury the bodies in one place, did seem to cruise for prostitutes but doesnt say that many of his victims were prostitutes, were in the same age range

So, these have varying degrees of similarity, but also major differences


There's plenty of differences between Corll and Gacy too. Gacy buried his victims under his home, Corll did elsewhere.
You are stretching, they both buried their victims under properties they owned or rented for the most part, and both had nearly 20 bodies buried in the same place, extreme outliers in the history of US crime

Corll definitely had accomplices, it's unproven speculation that Gacy did. Gacy ensnared his victims himself from known hotspots young men hung around, Corll relied on his accomplices.
Ya, well, when we are talking about things from 50 years ago when the cops and the DA's were more than happy to turn 30 red murders to black on their board, all we can do at this point is speculate

Just accepting the official narrative based on what a handful of (varying degrees of evil) people are willing to tell you is the easy way for sure, but easy doesn't mean its right


The similarities largely came from Gacy reading about Corll that's where he got the handcuff trick and the torture board (which he disliked and only did once).
The similarities come from the victimology, the way of finding victims, the way of incapacitating victims, and the way of getting rid of the bodies

Could Gacy have read about Corll and been inspired? Sure

Could someone else have been involved with both of them who lead them to do a lot of what they did? Sure

there's no evidence Corll ever met Norman

Its the 1970's with no technology and lazy cops who were spoon fed what they felt was an open and shut case that would make all of their careers, so of course there was no evidence

And even if they had put in a full and thorough investigation, maybe Norman was just that good at covering his tracks? Maybe whatever evidence was linking them was destroyed by whoever kept him out of jail and made sure his index cards never got discovered?

 

[snooptroop88]

Why would he suddenly feel safe when Norman was still out there and when it was allegedly a huge Organization full of high up people?
Maybe he didn't feel safe, maybe he just didn't care about sitting in a cell any longer

Or maybe he knew whoever was above Norman in the network had died, that Norman was old and locked up, and the odds of anything happening to him were slim, and even if they did he didn't care

Or maybe he just got sick of being the one locked up for other people and decided it was time to speak out

The idea that Paske would get to him on Death Row is just silly. If Paske was this Rorschach like figure then why was Gacy hiring him in the first place? Why keep that documentation?
Who said Paske would get to him on death row or was some Rorschach like figure? If this network can keep a guy like Norman out and about they certainly could get an inmate killed, and of the infinite possibilities here Gacy may have had no clue Paske was connected to Norman (or he might have, who knows)

Gacy was only able to have young men around from 1975-1978 when his second wife moved out, he did have young men over at times from 71-75 but not as often.

And when was Norman in Illinois? Oh, thats right, the mid 70's around the time Gacy was most active, another random coincidence I am sure

So now Gacy is innocent and Paske killed all the victims?

No one has said anything even closely resembling this

Then what about Jeffrey Rignall? He survived and said it was Gacy.
Nobody said Gacy was a good guy, I am sure he had many victims

The problem with what you are saying is when people asked Gacy about Paske he suddenly started claiming he did know what was going on and it was Paske and Norman. Didn't say a single word about him for years before.

As covered, there are numerous reasons why he may not want to speak up at that time, in the 1980's he still could have held out hope that one day he may get let out or escape, a decade in a cell could change your mind don't you think?

You are moving the goalposts you didn't say US only and someone below mentioned Herb Baumeister. We also have William Bonin, Randy Kraft, Patrick Kearney, etc in the same era killing numerous young men.
Of course US matters more than anywhere else when we are talking about the US, a guy in a third world country killing 300+ is a completely different situation

Herb mostly killed adult males, there are as many 30 and 40 year olds as teens
Thank you for mentioning the others, Kearney seems pretty similar to these two, but according to what I read only 2 of his victims were prostitutes (that they know of) and he didn't bury everyone in the same place

Randy Kraft's victims were mostly adults, and as far as I can see they only think 1 was a prostitute, also no mass burial (crimes seem very similar though, driving around looking for guys and offering drugs and alcohol before abusing and killing)

Bonin also didn't bury the bodies in one place, did seem to cruise for prostitutes but doesnt say that many of his victims were prostitutes, were in the same age range

So, these have varying degrees of similarity, but also major differences


There's plenty of differences between Corll and Gacy too. Gacy buried his victims under his home, Corll did elsewhere.
You are stretching, they both buried their victims under properties they owned or rented for the most part, and both had nearly 20 bodies buried in the same place, extreme outliers in the history of US crime

Corll definitely had accomplices, it's unproven speculation that Gacy did. Gacy ensnared his victims himself from known hotspots young men hung around, Corll relied on his accomplices.
Ya, well, when we are talking about things from 50 years ago when the cops and the DA's were more than happy to turn 30 red murders to black on their board, all we can do at this point is speculate

Just accepting the official narrative based on what a handful of (varying degrees of evil) people are willing to tell you is the easy way for sure, but easy doesn't mean its right


The similarities largely came from Gacy reading about Corll that's where he got the handcuff trick and the torture board (which he disliked and only did once).
The similarities come from the victimology, the way of finding victims, the way of incapacitating victims, and the way of getting rid of the bodies

Could Gacy have read about Corll and been inspired? Sure

Could someone else have been involved with both of them who lead them to do a lot of what they did? Sure

there's no evidence Corll ever met Norman

Its the 1970's with no technology and lazy cops who were spoon fed what they felt was an open and shut case that would make all of their careers, so of course there was no evidence

And even if they had put in a full and thorough investigation, maybe Norman was just that good at covering his tracks? Maybe whatever evidence was linking them was destroyed by whoever kept him out of jail and made sure his index cards never got discovered?

(respectfully bolded) AGREED. The one thing we know about Gacy (and Corll) is they care about nobody else's lives-- except their own. But my, they really care about their own skins. Would guilty Gacy want to implicate someone like Norman? Consider Gacy's circumstances. Not a very smart thing for him to do. Norman's not going to prove Gacy innocent of anything. Not really going to do Gacy too much good-- until Gacy can really tell, yeah, he's going to be executed soon. Ever the pramatic wheeler-dealer, Gacy might suddenly be on board for spilling the beans-- at that point. But also at that point, LE just figures go ahead and tell us what you'd like, you're going to die regardless. While he'd quite likely lie through his teeth, efforts could be made to corrobote his information. But LE (rightfully, imo) probably figured they weren't going to cede control of any kind to the same destructive manipulator, tormentor, torturer and murderer they'd finally just driven a nail into with conviction. And that's what Gacy would have obtained, control, in his desperate attempt to use Norman as a bargaining chip. And in the end, his information might all have been a pack of useless, unverifiable lies. His sick skillset included being an arch manipulator. LE & the state probably just figured they'd had enough.

And yes, maybe Gacy did simply read about Corll. Do you think Gacy would be highly motivated to volunteer information of any association beyond just reading about him? That would not save Gacy's skin, and Corll was dead, whereas Gacy was not yet dead, and clearly wants to save the life that destroyed so many other lives. So Gacy wouldn't be on board with that one-- at all.

LE's jmo quite lucky they got Gacy, it might have been a completely different story had the heat vent not kicked on-- carrying in that horrifying smell from below-- right into the bathroom when that detective was relieving himself. Dealing with such figures, speculation will always abound, and I'm very grateful for it.

 

[Nadal]

Why would he suddenly feel safe when Norman was still out there and when it was allegedly a huge Organization full of high up people?
Maybe he didn't feel safe, maybe he just didn't care about sitting in a cell any longer

Or maybe he knew whoever was above Norman in the network had died, that Norman was old and locked up, and the odds of anything happening to him were slim, and even if they did he didn't care

Or maybe he just got sick of being the one locked up for other people and decided it was time to speak out

The idea that Paske would get to him on Death Row is just silly. If Paske was this Rorschach like figure then why was Gacy hiring him in the first place? Why keep that documentation?
Who said Paske would get to him on death row or was some Rorschach like figure? If this network can keep a guy like Norman out and about they certainly could get an inmate killed, and of the infinite possibilities here Gacy may have had no clue Paske was connected to Norman (or he might have, who knows)

Gacy was only able to have young men around from 1975-1978 when his second wife moved out, he did have young men over at times from 71-75 but not as often.

And when was Norman in Illinois? Oh, thats right, the mid 70's around the time Gacy was most active, another random coincidence I am sure

So now Gacy is innocent and Paske killed all the victims?

No one has said anything even closely resembling this

Then what about Jeffrey Rignall? He survived and said it was Gacy.
Nobody said Gacy was a good guy, I am sure he had many victims

The problem with what you are saying is when people asked Gacy about Paske he suddenly started claiming he did know what was going on and it was Paske and Norman. Didn't say a single word about him for years before.

As covered, there are numerous reasons why he may not want to speak up at that time, in the 1980's he still could have held out hope that one day he may get let out or escape, a decade in a cell could change your mind don't you think?

You are moving the goalposts you didn't say US only and someone below mentioned Herb Baumeister. We also have William Bonin, Randy Kraft, Patrick Kearney, etc in the same era killing numerous young men.
Of course US matters more than anywhere else when we are talking about the US, a guy in a third world country killing 300+ is a completely different situation

Herb mostly killed adult males, there are as many 30 and 40 year olds as teens
Thank you for mentioning the others, Kearney seems pretty similar to these two, but according to what I read only 2 of his victims were prostitutes (that they know of) and he didn't bury everyone in the same place

Randy Kraft's victims were mostly adults, and as far as I can see they only think 1 was a prostitute, also no mass burial (crimes seem very similar though, driving around looking for guys and offering drugs and alcohol before abusing and killing)

Bonin also didn't bury the bodies in one place, did seem to cruise for prostitutes but doesnt say that many of his victims were prostitutes, were in the same age range

So, these have varying degrees of similarity, but also major differences


There's plenty of differences between Corll and Gacy too. Gacy buried his victims under his home, Corll did elsewhere.
You are stretching, they both buried their victims under properties they owned or rented for the most part, and both had nearly 20 bodies buried in the same place, extreme outliers in the history of US crime

Corll definitely had accomplices, it's unproven speculation that Gacy did. Gacy ensnared his victims himself from known hotspots young men hung around, Corll relied on his accomplices.
Ya, well, when we are talking about things from 50 years ago when the cops and the DA's were more than happy to turn 30 red murders to black on their board, all we can do at this point is speculate

Just accepting the official narrative based on what a handful of (varying degrees of evil) people are willing to tell you is the easy way for sure, but easy doesn't mean its right


The similarities largely came from Gacy reading about Corll that's where he got the handcuff trick and the torture board (which he disliked and only did once).
The similarities come from the victimology, the way of finding victims, the way of incapacitating victims, and the way of getting rid of the bodies

Could Gacy have read about Corll and been inspired? Sure

Could someone else have been involved with both of them who lead them to do a lot of what they did? Sure

there's no evidence Corll ever met Norman

Its the 1970's with no technology and lazy cops who were spoon fed what they felt was an open and shut case that would make all of their careers, so of course there was no evidence

And even if they had put in a full and thorough investigation, maybe Norman was just that good at covering his tracks? Maybe whatever evidence was linking them was destroyed by whoever kept him out of jail and made sure his index cards never got discovered?

Norman was not locked up when Gacy first started claiming it was Paske and Norman. Further down you said maybe Gacy didn't know Paske was involved with Norman. Well he claimed he did. The problem is the sequence of events aren't credible whatsoever. Gacy is arrested initially doesn't say anything about accomplices, shortly after he said Cram and Rossi helped then at times even said it was all them. Doesn't say a single word about Paske or Norman for years. Paske is arrested and the fact he works for Gacy is found out, Gacy is told about Paske and Norman's activities then he suddenly claims it was Paske and Norman.

Where is the evidence that Norman could get an inmate killed? Norman was caught the last time for trying to groom a teenage cashier he was a very typical groomer who got some big clients. There's absolutely no evidence of that kind of pull from Norman it's all just QAnon like Conspiracy Theories a Proto-Pizzagate. Not even just an inmate but a Death Row Inmate, it's silly. The timing shows you what was really going on, Gacy found out a former employee of his was involved in crimes against children so pivoted to blaming them. He blamed everyone and everything and came up with all kinds of ludicrous explanations. The fact that he didn't say a word about either until someone put the idea into his head is very telling.

Illinois is a massive State it's absolutely a coincidence yes, Norman had ties to Illinois way before the Delta Project he had to leave Texas because of the police knowing he was a child abuser there. This was the era before communication between Departments. He moved to a State he had ties to.

If you aren't saying Gacy was innocent then what even is your theory? Paske was killing kids for Norman and burying them in Gacy's basement? First Norman wanted these kids alive the entire point was to have child sex workers he could send to people, he relied on his reputation he wanted wayward teens saying to other wayward teems that there's this man called John Norman who will pay you good money for sex work. That was his entire business and what he was caught proposing at the end. The murders Paske is thought to be involved in were of informants. So all of these kids were informants? How many did Gacy kill then? Why did these people with the ability to kill people on Death Row need to bury bodies in Gacy's home? I'd think a shadowy cabal of that stature could get access to an incinerator or something else to make the bodies disappear.

I don't think the rest is really worth going over it's just you agreeing that there is no evidence for most of these things and throwing out hypotheticals which is fine but not worthwhile for me.

 

[Nadal]

(respectfully bolded) AGREED. The one thing we know about Gacy (and Corll) is they care about nobody else's lives-- except their own. But my, they really care about their own skins. Would guilty Gacy want to implicate someone like Norman? Consider Gacy's circumstances. Not a very smart thing for him to do. Norman's not going to prove Gacy innocent of anything. Not really going to do Gacy too much good-- until Gacy can really tell, yeah, he's going to be executed soon. Ever the pramatic wheeler-dealer, Gacy might suddenly be on board for spilling the beans-- at that point. But also at that point, LE just figures go ahead and tell us what you'd like, you're going to die regardless. While he'd quite likely lie through his teeth, efforts could be made to corrobote his information. But LE (rightfully, imo) probably figured they weren't going to cede control of any kind to the same destructive manipulator, tormentor, torturer and murderer they'd finally just driven a nail into with conviction. And that's what Gacy would have obtained, control, in his desperate attempt to use Norman as a bargaining chip. And in the end, his information might all have been a pack of useless, unverifiable lies. His sick skillset included being an arch manipulator. LE & the state probably just figured they'd had enough.

And yes, maybe Gacy did simply read about Corll. Do you think Gacy would be highly motivated to volunteer information of any association beyond just reading about him? That would not save Gacy's skin, and Corll was dead, whereas Gacy was not yet dead, and clearly wants to save the life that destroyed so many other lives. So Gacy wouldn't be on board with that one-- at all.

LE's jmo quite lucky they got Gacy, it might have been a completely different story had the heat vent not kicked on-- carrying in that horrifying smell from below-- right into the bathroom when that detective was relieving himself. Dealing with such figures, speculation will always abound, and I'm very grateful for it.

Gacy implicated Norman the second someone mentioned him to Gacy lol.

 

[snooptroop88]

Norman was not locked up when Gacy first started claiming it was Paske and Norman. Further down you said maybe Gacy didn't know Paske was involved with Norman. Well he claimed he did. The problem is the sequence of events aren't credible whatsoever. Gacy is arrested initially doesn't say anything about accomplices, shortly after he said Cram and Rossi helped then at times even said it was all them. Doesn't say a single word about Paske or Norman for years. Paske is arrested and the fact he works for Gacy is found out, Gacy is told about Paske and Norman's activities then he suddenly claims it was Paske and Norman.

Where is the evidence that Norman could get an inmate killed? Norman was caught the last time for trying to groom a teenage cashier he was a very typical groomer who got some big clients. There's absolutely no evidence of that kind of pull from Norman it's all just QAnon like Conspiracy Theories a Proto-Pizzagate. Not even just an inmate but a Death Row Inmate, it's silly. The timing shows you what was really going on, Gacy found out a former employee of his was involved in crimes against children so pivoted to blaming them. He blamed everyone and everything and came up with all kinds of ludicrous explanations. The fact that he didn't say a word about either until someone put the idea into his head is very telling.

Illinois is a massive State it's absolutely a coincidence yes, Norman had ties to Illinois way before the Delta Project he had to leave Texas because of the police knowing he was a child abuser there. This was the era before communication between Departments. He moved to a State he had ties to.

If you aren't saying Gacy was innocent then what even is your theory? Paske was killing kids for Norman and burying them in Gacy's basement? First Norman wanted these kids alive the entire point was to have child sex workers he could send to people, he relied on his reputation he wanted wayward teens saying to other wayward teems that there's this man called John Norman who will pay you good money for sex work. That was his entire business and what he was caught proposing at the end. The murders Paske is thought to be involved in were of informants. So all of these kids were informants? How many did Gacy kill then? Why did these people with the ability to kill people on Death Row need to bury bodies in Gacy's home? I'd think a shadowy cabal of that stature could get access to an incinerator or something else to make the bodies disappear.

I don't think the rest is really worth going over it's just you agreeing that there is no evidence for most of these things and throwing out hypotheticals which is fine but not worthwhile for me.

(respectully bolded)

I'm currently searching inmates on Death Row who were murdered, and I am finding results, I've already found about six or seven Death Row inmates who were murdered by other prisoners. I just saw two cases at San Quentin. That's five minutes of searching.

Also, I'm sure the only reason Gacy would provide evidence on Norman would be if he were to be removed from Death Row. So let's say he was, maybe he'd then have ended up like this:

Serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer, serving 15 consecutive life sentences for the murders of 15 men, beaten to death by a fellow inmate while performing cleaning duty at the Columbia Correctional Institute in Wisconsin

Another high profile case...

Gacy implicated Norman the second someone mentioned him to Gacy lol.

I don't really care what Gacy did in terms of mentioning Norman. But it is definitely of note that he would mention him at all. Generally, though, Gacy is a liar and manipulator who died on Death Row for murdering multiple young men in the most hideous ways possible. Gacy's words mean absolutely nothing to me except in so far as they can be substantiated by reliable sources.

There are too many similarities when it comes to Gacy and Corll, and Norman may be involved, jmo. And others may be involved. Those who are exploring the possibilities on that situation are to be thanked.

It's that simple, and it's jmo.