IL IL - John Wayne Gacy

[Nadal]

(respectully bolded)

I'm currently searching inmates on Death Row who were murdered, and I am finding results, I've already found about six or seven Death Row inmates who were murdered by other prisoners. I just saw two cases at San Quentin. That's five minutes of searching.

Also, I'm sure the only reason Gacy would provide evidence on Norman would be if he were to be removed from Death Row. So let's say he was, maybe he'd then have ended up like this:

Serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer, serving 15 consecutive life sentences for the murders of 15 men, beaten to death by a fellow inmate while performing cleaning duty at the Columbia Correctional Institute in Wisconsin

Another high profile case...


I don't really care what Gacy did in terms of mentioning Norman. But it is definitely of note that he would mention him at all. Generally, though, Gacy is a liar and manipulator who died on Death Row for murdering multiple young men in the most hideous ways possible. Gacy's words mean absolutely nothing to me except in so far as they can be substantiated by reliable sources.

There are too many similarities when it comes to Gacy and Corll, and Norman may be involved, jmo. And others may be involved. Those who are exploring the possibilities on that situation are to be thanked.

It's that simple, and it's jmo.

Well no reliable sources can substantiate any of these conspiracy theories. Gacy didn't mention Norman, someone mentioned Norman to Gacy told him who he was and what he did then Gacy went "Yep he did it!". He would have blamed him years earlier but he had almost certainly never even heard of him,

 

[JussSumguy]

He would have blamed him years earlier but he had almost certainly never even heard of him,

You state this as if it is 100% fact when you don't know that it is, you write off every reason we give based on your opinion that it can't be true, but you might not be right

You don't think Norman had powerful people helping him out? Do you know about the index cards? Explain what happened to those if there isn't more at play here please

Didn't a witness in Norman's trial get murdered on the street in broad daylight? And you don't think he (better said, they) can get to a prisoner? The guy ran an escort for underage boys, got caught repeatedly, didn't do hard time, and neither did any of his clients, come on man

You focus on the "known" things which have been told to us by either evil people or shady people in strange circumstances like the Corll accomplices

We are simply throwing out other possibilities, so when you want me to pinpoint one exact theory that isn't going to happen

The main point is, there are endless ways this could have gone down, and the official narrative being the right one and it just stops with what we've been told seems unlikely given the coincidences and timing

Quit focusing on Gacy, or Plaske, or Norman, or Corll, or Henley

Look at the bigger picture with an open mind, I am not going to repeat the bigger picture again and clog up the thread even more, if you aren't open to it by now you never will be

(I said something about lazy cops in a previous post, can't edit it now, but obv in both situations any cop would have taken both of these as open and shut cases, no disrespect meant)

 

[snooptroop88]

You state this as if it is 100% fact when you don't know that it is, you write off every reason we give based on your opinion that it can't be true, but you might not be right

You don't think Norman had powerful people helping him out? Do you know about the index cards? Explain what happened to those if there isn't more at play here please

Didn't a witness in Norman's trial get murdered on the street in broad daylight? And you don't think he (better said, they) can get to a prisoner? The guy ran an escort for underage boys, got caught repeatedly, didn't do hard time, and neither did any of his clients, come on man

You focus on the "known" things which have been told to us by either evil people or shady people in strange circumstances like the Corll accomplices

We are simply throwing out other possibilities, so when you want me to pinpoint one exact theory that isn't going to happen

The main point is, there are endless ways this could have gone down, and the official narrative being the right one and it just stops with what we've been told seems unlikely given the coincidences and timing

Quit focusing on Gacy, or Plaske, or Norman, or Corll, or Henley

Look at the bigger picture with an open mind, I am not going to repeat the bigger picture again and clog up the thread even more, if you aren't open to it by now you never will be

(I said something about lazy cops in a previous post, can't edit it now, but obv in both situations any cop would have taken both of these as open and shut cases, no disrespect meant)

100% agreed on every single thing in this post.

I don't care WHAT comes out of John Gacy's mouth, and it would be the same with Corll if he had not already been dead. I don't care what Gacy says about anything, he's a murderer and as to be expected, a complete liar, and an adroit one. Once they had him in prison, I didn't really care what he did, either, because I knew that would be the end of him. Appeal away, and keep blabbing.

@JussSumguy is completely right, though, that any mention, any implication, any statement, whatever you'd like to call it, ANY thing that concerns Norman that springs forth from Gacy is incredibly concerning. Just the pure existence of it is alarming. While I may not care one shred about Gacy, a walking horror show, he's at the center of real horrors that took and ruined lives, he's the primary source. And he's a very bad source. Someone devoid of conscience, and pretty shrewd, so he largely knows what to say and what not to say.

With all that in mind, the fact that Norman was in any way mentioned, discussed, whatever the circumstances may be... anything, no matter how much of a liar Gacy was, anything even remotely related to someone like Norman out of Gacy's mouth or in his records is a red flag for mind-blowing possibilities. The parallels between Gacy and Corll are alarming. A network acting as a kind of overarching umbrella would be a rather logical and utterly horrifying explanation for it. So it just seems unwise to completely dismiss the possibility.

 

[Nadal]

You state this as if it is 100% fact when you don't know that it is, you write off every reason we give based on your opinion that it can't be true, but you might not be right

You don't think Norman had powerful people helping him out? Do you know about the index cards? Explain what happened to those if there isn't more at play here please

Didn't a witness in Norman's trial get murdered on the street in broad daylight? And you don't think he (better said, they) can get to a prisoner? The guy ran an escort for underage boys, got caught repeatedly, didn't do hard time, and neither did any of his clients, come on man

You focus on the "known" things which have been told to us by either evil people or shady people in strange circumstances like the Corll accomplices

We are simply throwing out other possibilities, so when you want me to pinpoint one exact theory that isn't going to happen

The main point is, there are endless ways this could have gone down, and the official narrative being the right one and it just stops with what we've been told seems unlikely given the coincidences and timing

Quit focusing on Gacy, or Plaske, or Norman, or Corll, or Henley

Look at the bigger picture with an open mind, I am not going to repeat the bigger picture again and clog up the thread even more, if you aren't open to it by now you never will be

(I said something about lazy cops in a previous post, can't edit it now, but obv in both situations any cop would have taken both of these as open and shut cases, no disrespect meant)

I'm going by Gacy's own behaviour which doesn't jive with any of the ways people are trying to explain it away. Blaming everyone and everything except Paske or Norman until someone points out their activities to them has a very obvious answer IMO, he had never heard of Norman and had no idea that Paske was involved in that kind of activity until it was brought up to him. That's when he started blaming him. Of course it's my opinion i wasn't there. I think my opinion is focusing on what we know and how Gacy reacted and those we know were involved rather than hypothetical shadowy cabals though. IMO everything else is way too speculative to be worthwhile we can easily stretch it's further and go down the Franklin Conspiracy route, claim Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford prevented all of this from coming to light because they were involved but that's completely empty of reliable evidence.

I don't believe you've established that the sources in this case are evil people unless you simply mean Henlye and Brooks yet you keep stating that as if it's fact. I have no issue with that to be clear as i understand when "IMO" is implied but just if we are pullling each other up on that.

Gacy targeted wayward teens, runaways, abuse victims, child sex workers. It's not remotely surprising to me that one of them got involved with crimes against children in Paske, i'd be surprised if there weren't more. Robin Gecht had nothing to do with Gacy just in case someone points that out he never met him and never worked for him. Gecht sarcastically said "Yes i killed him me and John Wayne Gacy!" and the media ran with it.

My issue with all of this is Gacy, Norman, Plaske, Henley, Corll are the people involved you can't even name anyone else they are just hypothetical bad guys in the shadows. So what worth is there focusing on them?

No disrespected intended either to anyone if i have to say that.

 

[snooptroop88]

I'm going by Gacy's own behaviour which doesn't jive with any of the ways people are trying to explain it away. Blaming everyone and everything except Paske or Norman until someone points out their activities to them has a very obvious answer IMO, he had never heard of Norman and had no idea that Paske was involved in that kind of activity until it was brought up to him. That's when he started blaming him. Of course it's my opinion i wasn't there. I think my opinion is focusing on what we know and how Gacy reacted and those we know were involved rather than hypothetical shadowy cabals though. IMO everything else is way too speculative to be worthwhile we can easily stretch it's further and go down the Franklin Conspiracy route, claim Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford prevented all of this from coming to light because they were involved but that's completely empty of reliable evidence.

I don't believe you've established that the sources in this case are evil people unless you simply mean Henlye and Brooks yet you keep stating that as if it's fact. I have no issue with that to be clear as i understand when "IMO" is implied but just if we are pullling each other up on that.

Gacy targeted wayward teens, runaways, abuse victims, child sex workers. It's not remotely surprising to me that one of them got involved with crimes against children in Paske, i'd be surprised if there weren't more. Robin Gecht had nothing to do with Gacy just in case someone points that out he never met him and never worked for him. Gecht sarcastically said "Yes i killed him me and John Wayne Gacy!" and the media ran with it.

My issue with all of this is Gacy, Norman, Plaske, Henley, Corll are the people involved you can't even name anyone else they are just hypothetical bad guys in the shadows. So what worth is there focusing on them?

No disrespected intended either to anyone if i have to say that.

Well, okay, totally getting what you're saying at various points on this. But the thing that I'd be most concerned about with Gacy and Corll is they both made themselves "bosses" in a line of work which they were using to torture and kill young people. (with witting or unwitting assistance). That's pretty mind-blowing in itself, and begs the question of whether they themselves may have had a "boss," or if perhaps they were satellites of something bigger, "independent operators" as part of a confederation, in which case there was still something of a type of "boss" in place-- somewhere, overseeing the operation as a whole.

The reason I'd note Paske is that he provides a nexus of sorts between Norman and Gacy. He worked briefly for Gacy, and was closely associated with Norman. That's extremely unsettling. Also, just editing to add this note that I'm seeing here that Norman was actually arrested in Texas in 1973. And that's where they found the infamous index cards. Corll's out in Houston, and Norman was arrested in Dallas, but didn't the alleged ring Corll mentioned supposedly operate out of Dallas? JMO, that's extremely concerning.

(Absolutely no disrespect intended here.)

 

[Nadal]

Well, okay, totally getting what you're saying at various points on this. But the thing that I'd be most concerned about with Gacy and Corll is they both made themselves "bosses" in a line of work which they were using to torture and kill young people. (with witting or unwitting assistance). That's pretty mind-blowing in itself, and begs the question of whether they themselves may have had a "boss," or if perhaps they were satellites of something bigger, "independent operators" as part of a confederation, in which case there was still something of a type of "boss" in place-- somewhere, overseeing the operation as a whole.

The reason I'd note Paske is that he provides a nexus of sorts between Norman and Gacy. He worked briefly for Gacy, and was closely associated with Norman. That's extremely unsettling. Also, just editing to add this note that I'm seeing here that Norman was actually arrested in Texas in 1973. And that's where they found the infamous index cards. Corll's out in Houston, and Norman was arrested in Dallas, but didn't the alleged ring Corll mentioned supposedly operate out of Dallas? JMO, that's extremely concerning.

(Absolutely no disrespect intended here.)

This applies to Gacy but as i said earlier Corll was a part time Electrician during most of his murders he was no longer running the Candy Factory.

I don't think there were any Bosses i think that kind of thing is possible but i don't see it applying to either Gacy or Corll who were middle of the road people or even less in Corll's case in terms of their station in life. I also think it's clear Norman wanted his victims alive it was his entire business he relied on his reputation he was noted as telling people to ask around about John Norman if he was having the kids tortured and killed that would have hurt his business. Paske seems to have killed an informant or two but there's no evidence of that kind of violence by Norman as stomach churning as it is he was effectively a Pimp for child sex workers.

The index cards were from Roy Ames who was paying Corll small amounts to photograph his victims there's no evidence of a connection between Norman and Corll. Corll told Henley the Organization operated out of California.

 

[Nadal]

For the record the FBI Vault released Phillip Paske's FBI Files if anyone wants to read them - Philip Paske

There's a lot of redactions sadly which isn't unusual whatsoever. Having requested a lot of FBI Files on the Mafia it's clear the FBI redact for the pettiest reasons especially when you see the unredacted ones on somewhere like Mary Ferrell and realize many of the redacted parts don't contain anything of interest.

 

[snooptroop88]

Looking into this further. Norman born OK and moved with family to Houston in 1943, attended hs in Houston. He'd be about 12 years older than Corll. 1954, 1956, arrested for sexual assault in Houston. A sex crime conviction 1960. Sexual assault CA 1963, federal changes/sending obscene literature through mail, he served time in Washington state.

Dallas 1973, a 21 year old in Dallas contacted the FBI, noting he was supposed to be sent out to Houston by a sex ring, Norman's Odyssey Foundation. The young man noted among other things that he'd seen Norman's files for other young men stamped with "Missing" or "Kill." The young man felt the organization was a front for sex and prostitution. When the young man used to talk about the Houston Mass Murders to Norman, Norman would get agitated. LE raided the place in Aug/Sept 1973 and found thousands upon thousands of index cards for thousands upon thousands of Norman "clients" across 35 states. Corll killed shortly before Norman was arrested. After Norman's release, he ran off to Homewood, IL, a Chicago suburb, 41 mins to Norwood Park. Gacy by that time would have been back in Illinois since 1970 after being released from IA. Gacy and his mother had purchased the Norwood Park home in 1971. He & second wife lived there together from 1971-1975, at which time they divorced and she left. At around the time Norman goes to Homewood, Gacy would have just quit his cook job to go fully into his construction business. Norman would be about 15 years older than Gacy, I believe. In the meantime with Norman, multiple complaints were already in the works against him by October 1973, the police couldn't get him right away because he was out of town, but they got him when he returned mid-November. Some unknown person from California bailed Norman out in spring 1976, he was ultimately convicted. It's around this time that Norman ran some kind of newsletter out of jail, advertising recruits that LE noted were underage male prostitutes from Chicago. Release, in and out of prison for a couple of years, one boy Norman abused was under the impression he'd been sold by Norman and Norman was waiting for the plane ticket for the boy.

In PA in the 80s, when Norman fled there, he went to Bolingbrook, another Chicago suburb about thirty mins from Gacy's home. Gacy at this time had already been convicted & was in prison.

Police have basically spelled out connections between Paske and Norman. Looking at multiple sources, I wouldn't be sure of the particulars but there does seem to have been a known and strong connection between Paske & Norman. And that makes any connection between Paske & Gacy a tremendous red flag, jmo.

Supposedly, at least two Gacy victims were last seen near Norman's place of residence. How was Norman connected at all with Illinois? What initially drew John David Norman to any location in Illinois? His family's movements supply the basis for a Texas tie, but what about Illinois?

There's a lot, lot in here to be concerned about, jmo. While I agree Norman seems to have wanted his victims alive, he also seems to have been (???) selling victims to clients, and maybe he felt the situation was "out of his hands" once the deals were done.

Fraught with more sick possibilities than one could imagine, seriously.

 

[snooptroop88]

I just don't see how you can have 'no doubt' that Dean killed them all

Think of it like this, in the history of the US:

How many people have been convicted of killing 30 or more people?

How many people have buried 20+ people in one location?

How many people have killed 20+ teen(ish) aged boys?



These are two very very rare cases, maybe the only 2 of their kind, and they both have a direct link to a service running the exact type of victims that were discovered, to me that leaves some doubt, however much is up to each of our own interpretations

And what I just said doesn't even get into the handcuffs, I mean the two perpetrators even used the exact same MO's

It is a lot of coincidences to just write off because of the official narrative

YUP. What drives the "official narrative"? Because I wholeheartedly agree on this.

Norman, Corll and Gacy-- just coming together as one of crime's Biggest Coincidences? If it were a coincidence, it's a very, very big one.

If Gacy and Corll were supplying Norman with fresh human beings for his "trade,", we'd really have no idea, would we? We know who's dead, but we don't know who was alive and "changed hands," so to speak.

And vice versa, if Norman occasionally supplied Corll or Gacy with human beings for goodness knows what, we'd really have no idea. Please don't say it's not possible because Norman was familiar with both these geographical areas.

I surely hope not. But with the series of "coincidences," I don't know why some would be so quick to rule it out.

 

[Nadal]

YUP. What drives the "official narrative"? Because I wholeheartedly agree on this.

Norman, Corll and Gacy-- just coming together as one of crime's Biggest Coincidences? If it were a coincidence, it's a very, very big one.

If Gacy and Corll were supplying Norman with fresh human beings for his "trade,", we'd really have no idea, would we? We know who's dead, but we don't know who was alive and "changed hands," so to speak.

And vice versa, if Norman occasionally supplied Corll or Gacy with human beings for goodness knows what, we'd really have no idea. Please don't say it's not possible because Norman was familiar with both these geographical areas.

I surely hope not. But with the series of "coincidences," I don't know why some would be so quick to rule it out.

Norman was little like Gacy or Corll though so how would that be a coincidence? The only thing in common is child sexual abuse and it's certainly not unusual that child sexual abusers find each other. Not that there's any evidence that the three knew each other. I'd call Norman the polar opposite of Corll and Gacy in terms of abusers since he wanted his victims alive and well kept because they were literally his products while Gacy and Corll wanted to destroy and abuse them.

Henley knew where all of Corll's victims were buried he even corrected LE on an incorrect identification. That's enough to conclude it was all Corll and his accomplices (far more than there is to the contrary of which there is nothing), the biggest question with Corll is which of his other victims were also accomplices. Corll couldn't afford to participate in Norman's businesses he was usually broke.

 

[snooptroop88]

Norman was little like Gacy or Corll though so how would that be a coincidence? The only thing in common is child sexual abuse and it's certainly not unusual that child sexual abusers find each other. Not that there's any evidence that the three knew each other. I'd call Norman the polar opposite of Corll and Gacy in terms of abusers since he wanted his victims alive and well kept because they were literally his products while Gacy and Corll wanted to destroy and abuse them.

Henley knew where all of Corll's victims were buried he even corrected LE on an incorrect identification. That's enough to conclude it was all Corll and his accomplices (far more than there is to the contrary of which there is nothing), the biggest question with Corll is which of his other victims were also accomplices. Corll couldn't afford to participate in Norman's businesses he was usually broke.

Yes, agreed, Norman is a trafficker of young human beings, males.

Gacy and Corll are murderers of young human beings, males.

The trafficker of human beings seems coincidentally to be in the victinity of the murderers of human beings at some particularly interesting times.

The perps would all be operating in geographical areas common to them. I agree it's not uncommon at all that these types find each other. I wholeheartedly agree here, too, they indeed do. So I'm wondering if Norman isn't one of the freaks either or both of them found. Or maybe he found them.

Henley is not my go-to encyclopedia on what occurred with Corll, I'm sorry. When you say Henley knows where "all" of Corll's victims were buried, you fail to mention there is at least one yet to be identified victim of Corll, and we don't really hear anything about other potential victims, and many people have guessed there are more Corll victims.

So where are they? Do they not exist?

 

[Nadal]

Yes, agreed, Norman is a trafficker of young human beings, males.

Gacy and Corll are murderers of young human beings, males.

The trafficker of human beings seems coincidentally to be in the victinity of the murderers of human beings at some particularly interesting times.

The perps would all be operating in geographical areas common to them. I agree it's not uncommon at all that these types find each other. I wholeheartedly agree here, too, they indeed do. So I'm wondering if Norman isn't one of the freaks either or both of them found. Or maybe he found them.

Henley is not my go-to encyclopedia on what occurred with Corll, I'm sorry. When you say Henley knows where "all" of Corll's victims were buried, you fail to mention there is at least one yet to be identified victim of Corll, and we don't really hear anything about other potential victims, and many people have guessed there are more Corll victims.

So where are they? Do they not exist?

These areas you speak of where Houston and Chicago two of the largest Cities in America there were tons of traffickers of young males in these areas no doubt. Gacy's sole connection to Norman seems to be both were trolling the same areas (namely the bus station where runaways and young male prostitutes hung out/arrived) for victims and they both became affiliated with the same person in Paske, Gacy briefly. That's all that has ever been shown. They were completely different kinds of predators Norman being involved with Gacy/Corll types would have been bad for business since it was a reputation based business.

Henley knew where that victim was though he just didn't know who he was.

I think they most likely don't exist or there's only a few of them. I don't think Corll did anything before leaving the army in 1965. Then very few Serial Killers go straight to killing and when they do it's typically sporadic before it escalates as both Corll and Gacy's were.

Henley and to a far lesser extent Brooks are really the only sources on Corll so i'm not sure where you get your information on him then. His mother? His girlfriend?

 

[snooptroop88]

These areas you speak of where Houston and Chicago two of the largest Cities in America there were tons of traffickers of young males in these areas no doubt. Gacy's sole connection to Norman seems to be both were trolling the same areas (namely the bus station where runaways and young male prostitutes hung out/arrived) for victims and they both became affiliated with the same person in Paske, Gacy briefly. That's all that has ever been shown. They were completely different kinds of predators Norman being involved with Gacy/Corll types would have been bad for business since it was a reputation based business.

Henley knew where that victim was though he just didn't know who he was.

I think they most likely don't exist or there's only a few of them. I don't think Corll did anything before leaving the army in 1965. Then very few Serial Killers go straight to killing and when they do it's typically sporadic before it escalates as both Corll and Gacy's were.

Henley and to a far lesser extent Brooks are really the only sources on Corll so i'm not sure where you get your information on him then. His mother? His girlfriend?

Ok, well, I guess everyone who has estimated more Corll victims is wrong. I get my information online through reputable sources to the extent that I can.

I guess the final unidentified victim of Corll has alreadty been identified by Henley. Please let us know who he is.

 

[Nadal]

Ok, well, I guess everyone who has estimated more Corll victims is wrong. I get my information online through reputable sources to the extent that I can.

I guess the final unidentified victim of Corll has alreadty been identified by Henley. Please let us know who he is.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong i'm posting my opinion same as you are i just find it redundant to constantly post IMO when it clearly is an opinion that's why i said "i think".

I literally said he didn't know who he was, i said he knew where he was. Henley wasn't involved with Corll when he was killed he just knew there were victims that predated him in the boatshed.

FTR Gacy specifically said to both a friend of his and a lawyer before his arrest that he killed "around 30 people", he's been tied to 33 so that's right in line with what he said. This was before Police arrested him because they thought he was going to kill himself. I'm super confused by this thread though because the proponents of conspiracy seem to both believe they killed more victims and they didn't kill all the victims that for some hard to fathom reason Norman and Paske (who there's no evidence or indication for mass murder on) were burying victims in the places attributed to Gacy and Corll. I don't understand how both can co-exist.

If i have to say it again i don't intend any disrespect here as your response suggests i'm annoying you which is not my intention i'm just giving a competing view that i hold.

 

[Leprikawn]

If Norman had "Bosses" that were as has been mentioned high ranking politicians and powerful people, then why didnt they take Norman out? I think he was running his own ring because of this. Looking into the guy he routinely got a slap on the wrist and that always puzzled me, but after doing some searches it wasn't abnormal during the 60's and 70's. In the mid to late 70's all of these serial killers started making the news and things changed.

Take Kenneth Parnell who kidnapped Steven Stayner. High profile kidnapping, Parnell had a history of arrests for child molestation, and when Steven saved Timmy White and got Parnell arrested, he got 5 years! He continued to try and kidnap boys up until 2004 when he was in a wheel chair.

I am now thinking that if there was a network of high profile people and Norman was the only one keeping them from being exposed, he would have been taken out.

 

[Nadal]

If Norman had "Bosses" that were as has been mentioned high ranking politicians and powerful people, then why didnt they take Norman out? I think he was running his own ring because of this. Looking into the guy he routinely got a slap on the wrist and that always puzzled me, but after doing some searches it wasn't abnormal during the 60's and 70's. In the mid to late 70's all of these serial killers started making the news and things changed.

Take Kenneth Parnell who kidnapped Steven Stayner. High profile kidnapping, Parnell had a history of arrests for child molestation, and when Steven saved Timmy White and got Parnell arrested, he got 5 years! He continued to try and kidnap boys up until 2004 when he was in a wheel chair.

I am now thinking that if there was a network of high profile people and Norman was the only one keeping them from being exposed, he would have been taken out.

Gacy himself only served 3 years for not only raping a child but paying someone to beat him up in an attempt to prevent him testifying. Then immediately after his release he was accused of similar crimes by two different children, he got away with them because one didn't show up to Court and another was caught trying to extort him. Gacy almost certainly started killing after that because he realized he'd be in and out of jail if he kept leaving victims alive.

 

[Leprikawn]

Gacy himself only served 3 years for not only raping a child but paying someone to beat him up in an attempt to prevent him testifying. Then immediately after his release he was accused of similar crimes by two different children, he got away with them because one didn't show up to Court and another was caught trying to extort him. Gacy almost certainly started killing after that because he realized he'd be in and out of jail if he kept leaving victims alive.

Agreed

 

[Nadal]

Agreed

He was living with his mother when those two accused crimes happening i think that's telling. That seriously limited him he was under court order to live with his mother. Similar happened when he was married with a stepdaughter from 1971-1975 he's known for 3 murders during those years all while his wife and stepdaughter where out for a prolonged amount of time, he then killed 30 in less time when he's left alone: 1975-1978.

 

[JussSumguy]

I'm going by Gacy's own behavior

We, meaning you too, know very little about Gacy’s own behavior outside of what he has told us, which means we KNOW nothing



Why do you assume Gacy had to know every detail about the Plaske to Norman connection from the start? Wallace didn’t know Stringer Bells name, address, and social security number, networks work in layers and the people at the top are insulated, of the myriad of possibilities here Norman and Gacy may never have met yet the bodies in Gacy’s basement could have largely been because of Norman



I think my opinion is focusing on what we know

You keep using this word know when what you mean is what you think



IMO everything else is way too speculative to be worthwhile we can easily stretch it's further

No problem man, if you want to just buy the official narrative as the fact you seem to think it is then go on living your life that way, those of us who don’t agree will continue on, hopefully that’s ok with you?



I don't believe you've established that the sources in this case are evil people unless you simply mean Henlye and Brooks yet you keep stating that as if it's fact.

I haven’t stated anything as fact, every single thing I have said is ‘there is the possibility’

Do you see the difference? You think if Gacy tells you that he is a cat then it is a fact that he is a cat, where as I and some others in this conversation are more just throwing out possibilities, I don’t see anyone here other than you claiming anything is a fact

As far as Henley and Brooks being evil, we dont really know, what we do know is that everything they said came after they had just killed a man and were now in full cover their modes or their lives would have been over

You can believe 100% of what people say in a desperate situation like that, I tend not to


My issue with all of this is Gacy, Norman, Plaske, Henley, Corll are the people involved you can't even name anyone else they are just hypothetical bad guys in the shadows. So what worth is there focusing on them?

I don't think there were any Bosses

Because if they exist they were the real villains that deserve our focus? Because these 2 unicorn cases with a lot of odd similarities having direct links to the exact type of escort service that would provide this exact type of victim doesn’t smell right to some of us?



How else do you explain a witness in Normans case getting killed if there aren’t other people in the shadows? I notice you never commented on that one, let me guess, the witness who got killed was just in the wrong place at the wrong time?



I'm seeing here that Norman was actually arrested in Texas in 1973. And that's where they found the infamous index cards. Corll's out in Houston, and Norman was arrested in Dallas, but didn't the alleged ring Corll mentioned supposedly operate out of Dallas?

Yes, Corll said that, so I guess that means it’s a 100% fact right?



I also think it's clear Norman wanted his victims alive it was his entire business he relied on his reputation he was noted as telling people to ask around about John Norman if he was having the kids tortured and killed that would have hurt his business.

Certainly, for a time, but what if a very powerful person went with a kid and then freaked out and didn’t want the witness to remain alive? What if some John hired an escort and killed them? What if the escort stole?



Paske seems to have killed an informant or two but there's no evidence of that kind of violence by Norman as stomach churning as it is he was effectively a Pimp for child sex workers.

It was the 1970’s with no technology and cops who just found 30 dead bodies, how deep of an investigation do you really think took place after it? They did what anyone would do, took the easy career defining case and moved on



Norman was little like Gacy or Corll though so how would that be a coincidence?

You would really do yourself a service by not thinking you know anything about these people you have never met just because you know what they told police

The coincidence is in the bodies and the timing, it has nothing to do with whatever you think you know about their personalities



I'd call Norman the polar opposite of Corll and Gacy in terms of abusers since he wanted his victims alive and well kept because they were literally his products while Gacy and Corll wanted to destroy and abuse them.

Quit acting as if you have any clue about the scope of what Norman was into or what his goals and objectives were

There are a lot of sickos in this world, some may have even paid him to let them kill a kid, maybe a lot of guys paid him to let them do that, we have no idea

But what we do know is all over the globe the most likely people to be found dead are prostitutes



Corll couldn't afford to participate in Norman's businesses he was usually broke.

Again you say this as fact when you have no clue, maybe he was broke because all of his money went to

Maybe he worked for the network and was paid in experiences and not in cash

We have no clue



Henley and to a far lesser extent Brooks are really the only sources on Corll so i'm not sure where you get your information on him then. His mother? His girlfriend?

This is what you don’t seem to get, NONE OF US have any real information on Corll, until you accept that you are going to just keep saying ‘well, but, Henley said’



The index cards were from Roy Ames who was paying Corll small amounts to photograph his victims there's no evidence of a connection between Norman and Corll.

Norman was caught with a box of index cards filled with clients in Dallas, nothing came of it

There is evidence of Corll’s victims being in Norman’s escort service, as well as in the pictures in the huge Houston factory



Norman runs an escort service in Dallas in the early 70’s, piles of dead boys pulled out from under the ground

Norman runs an escort service in Illinois in the mid 70’s, piles of dead boys pulled out from under the ground

Both locations where the boys were found had a connection to Norman

Norman is known to be running this service, never really goes to prison for it, and even though his client list is also found in Dallas NONE of his clients ever get in trouble either

We know of no other cases where piles of teen(ish) aged boys are pulled out of mass graves

Were Gacy and Corll thugs for Norman and killed for him? Were Gacy and Corll fall guys who took the rap for everyone else? Were these things barely related at all, maybe the reason there were more bodies here was because the escort service was around and it meant more opportunity, but not necessarily that there was any connection between Gacy/Corll and Norman other than a client relationship

This is what we are trying to say, there are limitless possibilities about how involved and connected these guys were, but all of those possibilities combined seem way more likely than these two unicorn cases that perfectly line up with the escort service running near them having nothing at all to do with it



If Norman had "Bosses" that were as has been mentioned high ranking politicians and powerful people, then why didnt they take Norman out?

Very fair question, and you are right they probably would have wanted to

But, he could have had dirt on them that he could have someone else uncover if he was murdered, a lot of dirt, on a lot of people

Or, he could have had a real connection with the person/people above him and they trusted him enough to not say anything

You are right though, many guys got short sentences for messing with kids, the thing we don’t know is what kind of sentence should he have got for running that kind of escort ring, not a lot of cases to compare it too

 

[snooptroop88]

I'm going by Gacy's own behavior

We, meaning you too, know very little about Gacy’s own behavior outside of what he has told us, which means we KNOW nothing



Why do you assume Gacy had to know every detail about the Plaske to Norman connection from the start? Wallace didn’t know Stringer Bells name, address, and social security number, networks work in layers and the people at the top are insulated, of the myriad of possibilities here Norman and Gacy may never have met yet the bodies in Gacy’s basement could have largely been because of Norman



I think my opinion is focusing on what we know

You keep using this word know when what you mean is what you think



IMO everything else is way too speculative to be worthwhile we can easily stretch it's further

No problem man, if you want to just buy the official narrative as the fact you seem to think it is then go on living your life that way, those of us who don’t agree will continue on, hopefully that’s ok with you?



I don't believe you've established that the sources in this case are evil people unless you simply mean Henlye and Brooks yet you keep stating that as if it's fact.

I haven’t stated anything as fact, every single thing I have said is ‘there is the possibility’

Do you see the difference? You think if Gacy tells you that he is a cat then it is a fact that he is a cat, where as I and some others in this conversation are more just throwing out possibilities, I don’t see anyone here other than you claiming anything is a fact

As far as Henley and Brooks being evil, we dont really know, what we do know is that everything they said came after they had just killed a man and were now in full cover their modes or their lives would have been over

You can believe 100% of what people say in a desperate situation like that, I tend not to


My issue with all of this is Gacy, Norman, Plaske, Henley, Corll are the people involved you can't even name anyone else they are just hypothetical bad guys in the shadows. So what worth is there focusing on them?

I don't think there were any Bosses

Because if they exist they were the real villains that deserve our focus? Because these 2 unicorn cases with a lot of odd similarities having direct links to the exact type of escort service that would provide this exact type of victim doesn’t smell right to some of us?



How else do you explain a witness in Normans case getting killed if there aren’t other people in the shadows? I notice you never commented on that one, let me guess, the witness who got killed was just in the wrong place at the wrong time?



I'm seeing here that Norman was actually arrested in Texas in 1973. And that's where they found the infamous index cards. Corll's out in Houston, and Norman was arrested in Dallas, but didn't the alleged ring Corll mentioned supposedly operate out of Dallas?

Yes, Corll said that, so I guess that means it’s a 100% fact right?



I also think it's clear Norman wanted his victims alive it was his entire business he relied on his reputation he was noted as telling people to ask around about John Norman if he was having the kids tortured and killed that would have hurt his business.

Certainly, for a time, but what if a very powerful person went with a kid and then freaked out and didn’t want the witness to remain alive? What if some John hired an escort and killed them? What if the escort stole?



Paske seems to have killed an informant or two but there's no evidence of that kind of violence by Norman as stomach churning as it is he was effectively a Pimp for child sex workers.

It was the 1970’s with no technology and cops who just found 30 dead bodies, how deep of an investigation do you really think took place after it? They did what anyone would do, took the easy career defining case and moved on



Norman was little like Gacy or Corll though so how would that be a coincidence?

You would really do yourself a service by not thinking you know anything about these people you have never met just because you know what they told police

The coincidence is in the bodies and the timing, it has nothing to do with whatever you think you know about their personalities



I'd call Norman the polar opposite of Corll and Gacy in terms of abusers since he wanted his victims alive and well kept because they were literally his products while Gacy and Corll wanted to destroy and abuse them.

Quit acting as if you have any clue about the scope of what Norman was into or what his goals and objectives were

There are a lot of sickos in this world, some may have even paid him to let them kill a kid, maybe a lot of guys paid him to let them do that, we have no idea

But what we do know is all over the globe the most likely people to be found dead are prostitutes



Corll couldn't afford to participate in Norman's businesses he was usually broke.

Again you say this as fact when you have no clue, maybe he was broke because all of his money went to

Maybe he worked for the network and was paid in experiences and not in cash

We have no clue



Henley and to a far lesser extent Brooks are really the only sources on Corll so i'm not sure where you get your information on him then. His mother? His girlfriend?

This is what you don’t seem to get, NONE OF US have any real information on Corll, until you accept that you are going to just keep saying ‘well, but, Henley said’



The index cards were from Roy Ames who was paying Corll small amounts to photograph his victims there's no evidence of a connection between Norman and Corll.

Norman was caught with a box of index cards filled with clients in Dallas, nothing came of it

There is evidence of Corll’s victims being in Norman’s escort service, as well as in the pictures in the huge Houston factory



Norman runs an escort service in Dallas in the early 70’s, piles of dead boys pulled out from under the ground

Norman runs an escort service in Illinois in the mid 70’s, piles of dead boys pulled out from under the ground

Both locations where the boys were found had a connection to Norman

Norman is known to be running this service, never really goes to prison for it, and even though his client list is also found in Dallas NONE of his clients ever get in trouble either

We know of no other cases where piles of teen(ish) aged boys are pulled out of mass graves

Were Gacy and Corll thugs for Norman and killed for him? Were Gacy and Corll fall guys who took the rap for everyone else? Were these things barely related at all, maybe the reason there were more bodies here was because the escort service was around and it meant more opportunity, but not necessarily that there was any connection between Gacy/Corll and Norman other than a client relationship

This is what we are trying to say, there are limitless possibilities about how involved and connected these guys were, but all of those possibilities combined seem way more likely than these two unicorn cases that perfectly line up with the escort service running near them having nothing at all to do with it



If Norman had "Bosses" that were as has been mentioned high ranking politicians and powerful people, then why didnt they take Norman out?

Very fair question, and you are right they probably would have wanted to

But, he could have had dirt on them that he could have someone else uncover if he was murdered, a lot of dirt, on a lot of people

Or, he could have had a real connection with the person/people above him and they trusted him enough to not say anything

You are right though, many guys got short sentences for messing with kids, the thing we don’t know is what kind of sentence should he have got for running that kind of escort ring, not a lot of cases to compare it too

(respectfully bolded) Seriously, I agree with all of this. There are way too many unaswered questions in terms of these issues. Henley can only relate what Henley knows.

And there are always going to be concerns on what any witness wants known, no matter who that witness may be. That's not specific to any particular source, it's universal.

If I sound frustrated or annoyed, it's only because it just does seem like areas of vital interest in terms of these cases haven't been anywhere near fully explored. In terms of trying to generate matches for missing persons, this raises serious problems because people might be limiting their searches to certain states when in reality, maybe they should be more intensely searching across 35 states.

jmo