IL - Paul O'Neal shooting possible policy violation - Chicago

[ZooSleuth]

After watching the video, I'm satisfied it was a good thing this wild criminal was taken out before he killed an innocent.

And I'm satisfied it was a good thing these cops were put on desk duty before they kill an innocent bystander or another officer. Shooting looked pretty reckless IMO.

 

[bwt42]

We are all entitled to our opinions. What's interesting to me was why all the police officers congregated in that area.

 

[bwt42]

Lucky some innocent wasn't killed when he raced down the street & through an intersection.

 

[ZooSleuth]

We are all entitled to our opinions. What's interesting to me was why all the police officers congregated in that area.

BBM, can you please elaborate? Thanks!

 

[ZooSleuth]

Lucky some innocent wasn't killed when he raced down the street & through an intersection.

I don't disagree with you there but that doesn't make the way the cops were shooting ok IMO. Pretty sure he didn't check to see if there was anybody sitting in any of those parked cars before shooting at the stolen car. Also, why didn't these cops communicate with each other that they were the only ones shooting?

 

[LonghornSpeakEasy]

I tend to be supportive of law enforcement first and give them the benefit of the doubt until evidence to the contrary becomes available. I must say, however, that I was deeply disturbed to see two officers "bump" each other several minutes after the incident while walking away from the scene of the shooting as if they had just scored a touchdown. I realize that adrenaline is involved but that had to show that the young man had been "de-humanized" in their eyes...that the chase had been a competition of sorts...I don't know. It just made me sick to my stomach. I still believe 99.99% of LE are honorable but some of the guys in this situation weren't from what I saw. Hope the good ones can rein in the bad ones before it's too late. :notgood:

 

[bwt42]

BBM, can you please elaborate? Thanks!

The police car seemed to be waiting for him. Plus it was mentioned in one article another officer was standing nearby and was almost shot when the officer shot at the car. Just got the impression this event was in progress when the car came down the street & hit the police car. jmo

 

[ZooSleuth]

I tend to be supportive of law enforcement first and give them the benefit of the doubt until evidence to the contrary becomes available. I must say, however, that I was deeply disturbed to see two officers "bump" each other several minutes after the incident while walking away from the scene of the shooting as if they had just scored a touchdown. I realize that adrenaline is involved but that had to show that the young man had been "de-humanized" in their eyes...that the chase had been a competition of sorts...I don't know. It just made me sick to my stomach. I still believe 99.99% of LE are honorable but some of the guys in this situation weren't from what I saw. Hope the good ones can rein in the bad ones before it's too late. :notgood:

Well said. Related to this, are officers prohibited from rendering first aid? I feel like I used to hear stories of officers that saved lives of criminals after they got them under control. In all these police shooting videos I never see them help after the fact. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't, I'm just curious what the policy is.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

"Police cannot legally shoot fleeing suspects unless they pose a threat to an officer's life or unless the officer has a good faith belief the suspect poses a substantial danger to the public."
http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/02/us/chicago-police-shooting/
One of the reasons you don't shoot at a fleeing subject in a car, especially in a residential area, is obvious. First, you may unintentionally shoot someone else, such as a bystander, and it may cause the car to spin out of control and kill someone. They were in a residential area densely populated by homes.
Then he was on foot. Get a K-9 to track him.

 

[animlzrule]

I tend to be supportive of law enforcement first and give them the benefit of the doubt until evidence to the contrary becomes available. I must say, however, that I was deeply disturbed to see two officers "bump" each other several minutes after the incident while walking away from the scene of the shooting as if they had just scored a touchdown. I realize that adrenaline is involved but that had to show that the young man had been "de-humanized" in their eyes...that the chase had been a competition of sorts...I don't know. It just made me sick to my stomach. I still believe 99.99% of LE are honorable but some of the guys in this situation weren't from what I saw. Hope the good ones can rein in the bad ones before it's too late. :notgood:

I wish the "good ones" would start taking back control of their departments. But usually, it's just crickets. The blue wall of silence is stronger than shame and integrity, it appears.

 

[al66pine]

not sure.
ii. Department policy
a. A sworn member is justified in using force likely to cause death or great bodily harm only when he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary:
1. To prevent death or great bodily harm to the sworn member or to another person, or:
2. To prevent an arrest from being defeated by resistance or escape and the sworn member reasonably believes that the person to be arrested:

a. Has committed or has attempted to commit a forcible felony which involves the infliction, threatened infliction, or threatened use of physical force likely to cause death or great bodily harm or;
b. Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon or;
c. Otherwise indicates that he or she will endanger human life or inflict great bodily harm unless arrested without delay.​

iii. Department prohibitions for use of deadly force
use of firearms in the following ways is prohibited:

a. Firing into crowds.​

b. Firing warning shots.​

c. firing into buildings or through doors, windows, or other openings when the person lawfully fired at is not clearly visible.​

d. Firing at a subject whose action is only a threat to the subject himself (e.g., attempted suicide).

c. Is my guess (bbm)
http://directives.chicagopolice.org/directives/​

​

bluesneakers
Thank you very much for link & quote to PD policy. Helpful to review in trying to see whether LEO actions in a particular circumstance violate or do not violate PD policy. Makes for more intelligent, reasoned discussion.:happydance:JM2cts.

 

[al66pine]

"Police cannot legally shoot fleeing suspects unless they pose a threat to an officer's life or unless the officer has a good faith belief the suspect poses a substantial danger to the public."
http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/02/us/chicago-police-shooting/
One of the reasons you don't shoot at a fleeing subject in a car, especially in a residential area, is obvious. First, you may unintentionally shoot someone else, such as a bystander, and it may cause the car to spin out of control and kill someone. They were in a residential area densely populated by homes.
Then he was on foot. Get a K-9 to track him.

"Police cannot legally shoot fleeing suspects unless they pose a threat to an officer's life or unless the officer has a good faith belief the suspect poses a substantial danger to the public."

Ok, ^ post accurately quotes the cnn link. CNN states ^ as a fact, as a rule of law, but does not attribute it to anyone or a source.
bluesneakers posted PD policy or gen. directives re use of force and gave link. I wonder if ^ language is included as PD policy.

ETA: from quickly checking link, I'm not seeing same language that bluesneakers quoted. Hmmmm. Will try checking again.

 

[KaaBoom]

wonder what the policy violation was.

The first policy violation was firing at or into a moving car when the vehicle was the only potential use of force by a suspect. Then it spiraled downward from there into numerous other violations which have already been discussed here.

Chicago Police Superintendent Eddie Johnson said on Saturday that videos of the police shooting of a black man in the city last month indicate three officers may have violated the department’s policies.
Johnson told a news conference it was against departmental policy to fire at or into a moving car when the vehicle was the only potential use of force by a suspect, and police were taking a hard look at training and tactics following the shooting.

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/08/ch...icy-in-fatal-shooting-of-paul-oneal-official/

 

[KaaBoom]

Relevant court case.

United States Supreme Court

TENNESSEE v. GARNER, (1985)

No. 83-1035

Argued: October 30, 1984 Decided: March 27, 1985


Held:


The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against, as in this case, an apparently unarmed, nondangerous fleeing suspect; such force may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others. Pp. 7-22. [471 U.S. 1, 2]


(a) Apprehension by the use of deadly force is a seizure subject to the Fourth Amendment's reasonableness requirement. To determine whether such a seizure is reasonable, the extent of the intrusion on the suspect's rights under that Amendment must be balanced against the governmental interests in effective law enforcement. This balancing process demonstrates that, notwithstanding probable cause to seize a suspect, an officer may not always do so by killing him. The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable. Pp. 7-12.

(b) The Fourth Amendment, for purposes of this case, should not be construed in light of the common-law rule allowing the use of whatever force is necessary to effect the arrest of a fleeing felon. Changes in the legal and technological context mean that that rule is distorted almost beyond recognition when literally applied. Whereas felonies were formerly capital crimes, few are now, or can be, and many crimes classified as misdemeanors, or nonexistent, at common law are now felonies. Also, the common-law rule developed at a time when weapons were rudimentary. And, in light of the varied rules adopted in the States indicating a long-term movement away from the common-law rule, particularly in the police departments themselves, that rule is a dubious indicium of the constitutionality of the Tennessee statute. There is no indication that holding a police practice such as that authorized by the statute unreasonable will severely hamper effective law enforcement. Pp. 12-20.

(c) While burglary is a serious crime, the officer in this case could not reasonably have believed that the suspect - young, slight, and unarmed - posed any threat. Nor does the fact that an unarmed suspect has broken into a dwelling at night automatically mean he is dangerous. Pp. 20-22.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/471/1.html

 

[animlzrule]

Good article:

2 cops in O’Neal shooting had never fired gun at citizen before, records show


"The O’Neal case indicates that much has changed about the city’s response to fatal police shootings. Superintendent Eddie Johnson moved quickly after the shooting to strip the officers of their police powers, citing apparent policy violations. IPRA, meanwhile, broke with past practice by promptly releasing nine video clips from police dashboard and body cameras that showed the turmoil and tactical errors that ensued as police tried to arrest O’Neal."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...eal-shooting-officers-met-20160818-story.html

 

[ZooSleuth]

Good article:

2 cops in O’Neal shooting had never fired gun at citizen before, records show


"The O’Neal case indicates that much has changed about the city’s response to fatal police shootings. Superintendent Eddie Johnson moved quickly after the shooting to strip the officers of their police powers, citing apparent policy violations. IPRA, meanwhile, broke with past practice by promptly releasing nine video clips from police dashboard and body cameras that showed the turmoil and tactical errors that ensued as police tried to arrest O’Neal."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...eal-shooting-officers-met-20160818-story.html

Thanks for the link. That's a weird headline to put for this article. Since they have no history of complaints and never fired their guns it's like they are trying to make the cops look inexperienced because they never "fired a gun at a citizen before."