Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #157

[photographer4]

Former Delphi mayor part of prosecution team in murder case

DELPHI, Ind. – Shane Evans was the mayor of Delphi when Abby Williams and Libby German were murdered in a high-profile case. Now, he’s part of the team tasked with prosecuting Richard Allen, the ma…

fox59.com

 

[photographer4]

Snipped for focus At RA's hearing, prosecutors said that RA took a souvenir, and that's a big deal. If that can be proved, then that would be the nail in RA's coffin for me.

Sorry for poor formatting.
They did? If prosecutors said at hearing that RA took a souvenir I totally missed that. Please confirm I understand you correctly.

I believe this was noted in the warrant to search RL’s property - but I do not believe we’ve heard anything really about this from the hearing for RA this week??

 

[photographer4]

Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen may not have acted alone, arrests could be imminent

An Indiana man accused of killing two teenage girls in the infamous Delphi murder case may not have acted alone, prosecutors said Tuesday.

nypost.com

“Arrests could be imminent”?? I wonder where they got this idea???

”You’re gonna read that probable cause affidavit, online or wherever they get it, and hopefully that’s gonna ring a bell for somebody to help us out because he is innocent,” said defense attorney Andrew Baldwin, WTHR reported.”

Wait, what? So the defence is hoping someone remembers something or comes forward with something to exonerate RA???

 

[Ozoner]

Snipped for focus At RA's hearing, prosecutors said that RA took a souvenir, and that's a big deal. If that can be proved, then that would be the nail in RA's coffin for me.

Sorry for poor formatting.
They did? If prosecutors said at hearing that RA took a souvenir I totally missed that. Please confirm I understand you correctly.

I was paraphrasing one article that I read, but it's possible that the information about the souvenir was from the warrant rather than the hearing.

LE has stated that the killer took a souvenir (in the RL warrant if nowhere else), and LE says that RA is the killer.

Suffice to say, a souvenir found at RA's residence (or something equally strong) would be needed to get me past reasonable doubt.

 

[LammyTheRobot]

Yeah I guess i should say … it’s not so much the voice itself, as far as pitch & other such qualities that can change with circumstance or presentation, as the manner of speaking, which involuntarily reveals things a speaker is unaware of

This will probably earn me laughs & ridicule here lol …. but the quality that jumps out at me is one that’s also present in a lot of Frank Sinatra’s singing (I admit I’m not a big fan lol but my father is) … we used to call this quality “deadvoice”

Curious if anyone else hears this too

IMO

If RA’s voice doesn’t immediately sound like the video guy, and it’s quite different, that’s gonna be catnip to his defence team and Im sure they’d love to have him as vocal as possible in front of a jury in that case.

 

[Trebor5591]

At RA's hearing, prosecutors said that RA took a souvenir, and that's a big deal. If that can be proved, then that would be the nail in RA's coffin for me.

I agree, But if they did find that RA did have a souvenir tied to the girls, why keep it secret? IMO, they don't have anything nearly that solid.

 

[somequestions]

Why is this getting a "Richard Jewell" vibe to me?

Richard Jewell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The movie is great if you have not seen it. The 60 Minutes interviews with the real Richard Jewell are good too.

There is a little bit of irony to this case. A fact I found out after researching Richard Jewell case so many years later was that the entire time police had a picture of the man sitting on the bench over the package at Olympic Village. I did not know that fact after all these years. This turned out not to be Richard Jewell. But because the picture was too grainy no one could ever identify the person.

But just about everything else is different in this case, including an arrest. I doubt police would have made an arrest without there being a large presumption of guilt built up by the evidence.

 

[LammyTheRobot]

Devil’s advocate: I’d just like to remind people that loads of people have been wrongfully charged and even convicted because the police were sure of themselves. The case of Guy Paul Morin comes immediately to mind. He was the neighbour of Christine Jessop from Ontario, Canada who was abducted and killed in 1984. The police made a massive mess of the investigation and eventually settled on her next door neighbor as having been the man who took and killed her. Guy Paul Morin spent many horrible years in jail for this crime after being convicted - only to be completely exonerated years later by DNA that was recovered from the scene, which was not his. Many years later still, a family friend was proven to have been the culprit thanks to DNA advances.

Just because the police say they have their man, doesn’t mean they actually do. Even if they firmly believe it, it still doesn’t mean it is fact. We can only hope they have strong evidence to prove their case. No one wants an innocent man to go to jail for this, and no one wants a guilty man to get off scott free.

I agree. And I was completely shot to pieces when I said the same thing at the time of RA’s arrest.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Gray Hughes has obtained Richard Allen’s voice from social media that we would not normally approve, so here’s how we are going to handle this. This is really a Gray area (yeah, I said that )

Obviously as RA is the accused, his voice is of great interest to all, and we would not be relevant in the true crime community if we disallowed it when it is so highly relevant.

After discussion with Tricia, the decision is that we will allow members to fully discuss the voice as heard on Gray’s podcast.

We will NOT allow direct linking to the wife’s social media accounts.

 

[LammyTheRobot]

Gray Hughes has obtained Richard Allen’s voice from social media that we would not normally approve, so here’s how we are going to handle this. This is really a Gray area (yeah, I said that )

Loll.

 

[LammyTheRobot]

I hadn’t heard Gray’s video before but yes they do sound like similar voices. Just an observation and not enough to draw a conclusion.

 

[photographer4]

I agree, But if they did find that RA did have a souvenir tied to the girls, why keep it secret? IMO, they don't have anything nearly that solid.

If someone took a souvenir and police didn’t locate it on the suspects property or during their investigation - they may believe the suspect gave it to someone else. Perhaps as a gift or perhaps as evidence of the crime. They may now be looking for the item to be in someone else’s possession.

 

[mickey2942]

I agree. And I was completely shot to pieces when I said the same thing at the time of RA’s arrest.

Yes. It seems to me, that in a society with a supposedly free press and "transparent" system of justice that in a case this big, with an arrest made, there should be a probable cause warrant that is available for public review.

The more this happens, it is a slippery slope to a "justice" system like other countries, arrest first, now, prove you are "not guilty".

 

[LammyTheRobot]

Yes. It seems to me, that in a society with a supposedly free press and "transparent" system of justice that in a case this big, with an arrest made, there should be a probable cause warrant that is available for public review.

The more this happens, it is a slippery slope to a "justice" system like other countries, arrest first, now, prove you are "not guilty".

I live in the UK, dual citizen, and the system here is the Crown Prosecution Service. The CPS is not elected, they are civil servants who are managed and trained and monitored in exactly the same way across the whole country. So generally wherever you are, the police can’t charge you until they’ve spoken to the local/regional/national CPS, who then have to make prosecuting decisions following the exact same rules everywhere. That’s *before* a charge can be made and thus before courts get involved.

By comparison in the US we have elected DAs, who by their very elected nature have agendas of their own (they need to win again to keep their jobs). In the US, a DA decides to charge if there’s “probable cause” and then you are formally named. That naming in and of itself is a destructive act - it really must come with safeguards because many people think charged = guilty.

The UK system doesn’t publish the logic behind a charging decision (I.e the PCA, which in the UK is called an MG Form), but they also don’t name someone who is charged (though the press do sometimes). So because there’s effectively a trained cadre of professional prosecutors who all answer to the same organisation and have to apply the same logic in charging decisions, it feels “safer” than the US equivalent of elected local, siloed district attorneys.

JMO. And of course no system is right all the time.

 

[Charlot123]

It's worth remembering that the charges don't mean LE don't think RA is directly responsible for the murders (sorry for double negative!)
...
So basically you when abduct someone, or do an armed bank robbery, and victims predictably get killed, we hold people responsible for that and don't let them argue "oh that was never my plan". This was pretty much the case at common law anyway, but the codification just makes it easier in terms of what the prosecution must prove.

So i would bet a glass of chardonnay that in the AA, prosecution alleges RA directly did the murders - but the formulation of the charges governs what they have to prove as far as intent goes (lowering the bar)

I know the US lawyers have discussed this a lot in the thread!

Sorry, respectfully snipped for brevity.

About RA's charges - I think kidnapping for murder would be an aggravating circumstance for murder, and the charge would not be felony murder, but much worse. Makes me think that the crime he committed was not kidnapping.

How I personally would view felony murder: case 1: three men broke into a home for robbery; an old owner who happened to be at home, scared, shot one of the robbers. Other two robbers were charged with felony murder of their comrade.
Case 2: something similar happened in my state - a man sold drugs to teenagers; in the process of consumption, one died. That would be felony murder.
Case 3: inspired by Anne Rule's book. A licensed plastic surgeon who performs surgery in office/home and gives anesthesia while having no training of an anesthesiologist; if the patient dies as a complication of anesthesia, this would be felony murder.

So it is when death was not planned and happened accidentally, but the person's whole criminal activity led to someone's death. JMO, but this is how I understand it.

I am thinking of potential versions of how it can be applied to RA's case, given sealed affidavit. (I can bet it will be sealed.) If LE charge RA with felony murder, to me it says that he did not plan murder at all. (Not that the case is weak. It simply says, different circumstances.). No situation of felony murder I am thinking of would explain someone taking something from the CS, signatures, etc. The motive would be very different. So one scenario that could explain all, can't explain any such serial killer-like activity. Anyhow, good luck to deal with this complex case. RIP, girls. Very, very sorry for the mothers.

 

[Charlot123]

IMO I wish I shared your confidence or rather blind faith, in LE.

Personally, I have blind faith only in R&D. I have no clue of the quality of ISP, but I would say - they never appeared uninvolved to me. Personally, i think education should be the way to improve quality, ever and always. Hence, this case, with all its mistakes, should be used for future education of LEO. I do hope that ISP learned themselves in the process, and it may help young LEO in the future.

 

[taylorss]

Yeah I guess i should say … it’s not so much the voice itself, as far as pitch & other such qualities that can change with circumstance or presentation, as the manner of speaking, which involuntarily reveals things a speaker is unaware of

This will probably earn me laughs & ridicule here lol …. but the quality that jumps out at me is one that’s also present in a lot of Frank Sinatra’s singing (I admit I’m not a big fan lol but my father is) … we used to call this quality “deadvoice”

Curious if anyone else hears this too

IMO

Replying to my own post here cuz I’m so curious if anyone else knows what I’m talking about with “deadvoice” & hears it in the BG audio & the bit of RA audio that’s out there (… and Sinatra haha, just to try to illustrate what I mean)

To describe, it’s like a flatness & dullness so acute that it sounds like the speaker is so bored he might not even bother to make it to the end of the sentence

Not the he really feels bored of course, it’s just a speaking style … “deadvoice”

Anyone else familiar with deadvoice?

 

[Marzipan]

Replying to my own post here cuz I’m so curious if anyone else knows what I’m talking about with “deadvoice” & hears it in the BG audio & the bit of RA audio that’s out there (… and Sinatra haha, just to try to illustrate what I mean)

To describe, it’s like a flatness & dullness so acute that it sounds like the speaker is so bored he might not even bother to make it to the end of the sentence

Not the he really feels bored of course, it’s just a speaking style … “deadvoice”

Anyone else familiar with deadvoice?

Deadvoice - Christopher Plummer as Captain Von Trapp before he falls in love with Maria?

 

[Tricia]

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[Ontario Mom]

Sorry, respectfully snipped for brevity.

About RA's charges - I think kidnapping for murder would be an aggravating circumstance for murder, and the charge would not be felony murder, but much worse. Makes me think that the crime he committed was not kidnapping.

How I personally would view felony murder: case 1: three men broke into a home for robbery; an old owner who happened to be at home, scared, shot one of the robbers. Other two robbers were charged with felony murder of their comrade.
Case 2: something similar happened in my state - a man sold drugs to teenagers; in the process of consumption, one died. That would be felony murder.
Case 3: inspired by Anne Rule's book. A licensed plastic surgeon who performs surgery in office/home and gives anesthesia while having no training of an anesthesiologist; if the patient dies as a complication of anesthesia, this would be felony murder.

So it is when death was not planned and happened accidentally, but the person's whole criminal activity led to someone's death. JMO, but this is how I understand it.

I am thinking of potential versions of how it can be applied to RA's case, given sealed affidavit. (I can bet it will be sealed.) If LE charge RA with felony murder, to me it says that he did not plan murder at all. (Not that the case is weak. It simply says, different circumstances.). No situation of felony murder I am thinking of would explain someone taking something from the CS, signatures, etc. The motive would be very different. So one scenario that could explain all, can't explain any such serial killer-like activity. Anyhow, good luck to deal with this complex case. RIP, girls. Very, very sorry for the mothers.

I'm a little confused. I was doing a bit of digging yesterday on the statutes and penalties in Indiana and "felony murder" isn't a statute in the state. They only have 1 murder charge, that either carries a lower or higher penalty depending on very specific aggravating or mitigating circumstances. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your thinking on this?