Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #157

[LammyTheRobot]

Conversely, if I had been responsible for this crime (or any crime), I would have 'lawyered up' immediately and possibly would have even had a lawyer on retainer (if affordable).

Is there any knowledge, do we know, of RA having a learning disability/similar?

 

[Nikynoo]

Is there any knowledge, do we know, of RA having a learning disability/similar?

No, not that I am aware.

 

[pseudo_hum]

IMO. Since there is more audio on the phone recording, at least LE has said as much, I believe they (LE), may have evidence of another voice or the absence of another voice, which may indicate if another person was involved after the girls went “down the hill”. Just curious speculation on my part.

 

[taylorss]

I listened to Gray Hughes youtube that had Richard Allen's voice and Bridge Guys voice played one after the other. Although I could not make out what Allen was saying, the timbre of the two voices seemed identical. IMO

In case this helps … in the video that RA’s audio comes from. he & someone else are on some sort of outdoor play equipment like a trampoline or a slide rail. they’re making jokes about it breaking under them. He says something like “here comes a wheelchair,” and then “cables gonna snap”

 

[taylorss]

I think it is open to debate just what 'down the hill' means. The girls were going to the park to meet another person, we wonder how that person would have controlled both girls at once. Maybe the girls were accepting instruction of where to go instead of them being 'kidnapped' like has been often claimed. And then things went bad.

I’ve seen this a few times here now … trying to see it this way, which never occurred to me at all… at least partly cuz always figured there was more sinister audio on the recording that wasn’t released MOO (since we DO know that they were murdered “down the hill”) but of course it being settled in my mind obviously is a far far cry from guilty beyond reasonable doubt to jury…

But I still can’t see it this way JMO. even if the full audio reveals EG (speculation, made up by me as example) the girls ask him “what’s the best way off the bridge?” & he says “down the hill” … still clearly kidnapping IMO

To use a classic kidnapping storyline as illustrative example - think of the guy who says to a kid ‘want to see my new puppy?’ The kid says ‘Yes!! Where?’ and he says ‘right here in my van, wanna come see?’ and the kid says yes again & excitedly runs after him to the van… then is taken away. Would anyone say this doesn’t constitute kidnapping? If this is kidnapping, what is the possible scenario where RA didn’t kidnap the girls?
IMO

 

[taylorss]

IMO. Since there is more audio on the phone recording, at least LE has said as much, I believe they (LE), may have evidence of another voice or the absence of another voice, which may indicate if another person was involved after the girls went “down the hill”. Just curious speculation on my part.

This makes sense & could make it so much easier to puzzle out what happened … but whenever LE released the bits & pieces from Libby’s recording they always said ‘bear in mind this is one person, the same person speaking all these words, the man on the bridge, the person responsible for the murders’

It’s hard to have much faith in the investigation at this point but at min I have to think there’s nothing on the recording that raises the possibility of more than one perp at that point (completely aside from who may have been involved after the recording ends, ie after they went down the hill)

JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

BBM. He was formally charged on Friday Oct 28th *weekend* Mon Oct 31 - Friday Nov 4th *weekend* Letter requesting public defender was dated Wednesday the 9th Nov. So really 7 business days where I would assume his wife/famly were in shock and scrambling to call attorneys, realising the costs and wondering how they'd afford a retainer, etc... I believe RA and family were likely out of their depth.

Considering LE was at their home with a search warrant nearly 2 weeks before he was arrested, they couldn't have been in that much shock. Her yes, but him? He knew exactly what was coming down the pike. He had to have, unless he has some sort of cognitive disability, and I don't think we've seen that mentioned anywhere.

jmo

 

[Elley Mae]

Thought it was said that the portion of the recording that has not been released was the girls talking. I took that to mean it was them talking before suspect said, “down the hill”.

Could be wrong.

Jmo

 

[taylorss]

To me it is quite revealing that the accused himself has not raged against his imprisonment.

Why did he not even get a lawyer for weeks to learn what was in the AA?

If I was falsely locked up my family would be all over that. I get not every accused is sophisticated until they get quality counsel but it is notable how little urgency there is

Indeed counsel himself was talking more of the steep learning curve with the case. Notice also the case was weak. He didn’t say there was no evidence.

Yeah RA’s response has been so bizarre … AFAIK he’s been acting almost like he doesn’t understand the magnitude of what he’s facing … if he does in fact have full adult mental capacity (haven’t seen anything to suggest he doesn’t) what is going on in his head??

Why did he not flee or at least start contacting attorneys during the 6 days (IIRC) between when his house was searched & he was taken in??

Everything we’ve seen of his face & body language since he emerged as POI IMO seems to project what his atty said - a bewildered man who has no idea what’s happening to him or why…

I feel like maybe in all the years since the crime, he’s managed to split his internal sense of self up & convince himself that he didn’t do it … this sounds nuts & makes no sense…. Altho it does seem to make a little more sense if (as evidence so far suggests) this crime is totally out of character & keeping with everything else he’s ever done in his life … all so odd
MOO

 

[taylorss]

I agree that the words are chosen carefully. I also don't think it's alarming.

But I do think it's revealing of the type of evidence they have. At this point I think it's very likely they have evidence that places RA at the scene, but they don't have strong evidence that he was the actual killer.

That's reflected in the DA's choice of language in this press release ("involved in the murders of Libby and Abby" instead of "murdered Libby and Abby") and it's reflected in the actual charges against Allen. Felony murder is exactly the charge you'd expect for someone involved in a murder kidnapping who didn't commit the actual murder, whereas intentional murder & an additional kidnapping charge is what you'd expect for the actual killer in that scenario. And no, felony murder is not a more serious charge than intentional murder. You get the aggravating factor either way as long as a kidnapping happened.

Now, I don't think that necessarily means that Allen wasn't the actual killer. It's all about what the DA can prove, and he may just not feel confident that they prove that Allen committed the murders himself, even though they believe he did. If that's the case, felony murder is 100% the safer charge.

I do think what we're seeing from the prosecution speaks to a certain lack of clarity of exactly how the crime happened though. But that may not end up being legally important. If they have rock solid evidence that RA was there when it happened, it will be hard for him to avoid a conviction IMO.

Altho the prosecution here is making the sort of insecure flailing statements & improperly filed papers that a good defense atty will make hay of before a jury, chop it up & produce reasonable doubt … IA it’ll be hard for RA to use this misdirection to avoid a conviction by jury due to the horror of the crime… but less sure if he demands a bench trial … JMO

 

[The Observer]

Considering LE was at their home with a search warrant nearly 2 weeks before he was arrested, they couldn't have been in that much shock. Her yes, but him? He knew exactly what was coming down the pike. He had to have, unless he has some sort of cognitive disability, and I don't think we've seen that mentioned anywhere.

jmo

BBM. Yes, assuming he's guilty that is. Or perhaps his 'bewilderment' is an act. We'll know soon enough.

 

[Prime8]

Thought it was said that the portion of the recording that has not been released was the girls talking. I took that to mean it was them talking before suspect said, “down the hill”.

Could be wrong.

Jmo

You are correct. Although LE has stated (in the DTH podcast) that they are aware of the at least one of the girl's reaction to whatever happened around "DTH".

 

[Prime8]

The Prosecutor Podcast: Legal Briefs has a great episode. One of the hosts (a prosecutor) talks to a criminal defense attorney and they discuss the latest hearing. It gives a great inside view of what's going on and why certain things were done.

PodcastOne: The Prosecutors: Legal Briefs

Alice and Brett, hosts of the true crime podcast, The Prosecutors, bring their experience as prosecutors to the hottest stories in true crime. Whether it's breaking developments in a cold case, the intricacies of sentencing, or analysis of what's really going on in trials in the news, they'll...

www.podcastone.com

 

[taylorss]

Yeah, but just a friendly reminder here - let's keep in mind that we have seen zero evidence of this man's guilt. We put a lot of weight in the words of police and prosecutors and we give them enormous power that has put more than one innocent person behind bars. I don't know whether RA is involved, but I am not going to take their word and I don't think anyone should feel safer simply because prosecutors and law enforcement say so. Soon we'll see, but so far we just have extrajudical words at a press conference and opinions from a prosecutor. I wouldn't hang your hat on that

I appreciate this reminder & you’re so right to point out how essential it is to keep in mind the rights of the accused!

But while we haven’t seen a single letter of the prosecution’s case here due to sealed PC/AA, their case is not the same thing as the evidence. We have seen pics & heard the voice of the man who, at min, followed & menaced (& IMO kidnapped) the girls immediately before their murder. IMO the match bet this evidence & the man arrested is… to put it mildly… compelling. IMO.

We also know that he put himself at the location at or near the time in question - another compelling bit of evidence.

BUT was actually thinking yesterday about how he placed himself at scene … does anyone remember precisely where that info came from? I know it was in MSM with the story that he spoke to a conservation officer shortly after ‘the Feb 13 killings,’ but does anyone recall the source, if any, of the underlying info itself? Tia!!

 

[taylorss]

You are correct. Although LE has stated (in the DTH podcast) that they are aware of the at least one of the girl's reaction to whatever happened around "DTH".

!! pretty sure I missed that! Do you happen to recall what was said about this? Thank you if so!

 

[taylorss]

No doubt they're waiting until they know more.

Yeah … also … in a vacuum, IMO the atty for a innocent-as-a-lamb/charged-w-double-murder client would be storming the courthouse to get his client out to spend Christmas with his family…

In reality these attys presumably have quite a few other clients, most or all paying much better than RA… and the attys want to spend Thanksgiving & Christmas with their own families too, not working… JMO

 

[Elley Mae]

I appreciate this reminder & you’re so right to point out how essential it is to keep in mind the rights of the accused!

But while we haven’t seen a single letter of the prosecution’s case here due to sealed PC/AA, their case is not the same thing as the evidence. We have seen pics & heard the voice of the man who, at min, followed & menaced (& IMO kidnapped) the girls immediately before their murder. IMO the match bet this evidence & the man arrested is… to put it mildly… compelling. IMO.

We also know that he put himself at the location at or near the time in question - another compelling bit of evidence.

BUT was actually thinking yesterday about how he placed himself at scene … does anyone remember precisely where that info came from? I know it was in MSM with the story that he spoke to a conservation officer shortly after ‘the Feb 13 killings,’ but does anyone recall the source, if any, of the underlying info itself? Tia!!

As always, source

Source: Investigators have known for years that the Delphi suspect was on the Monon High Bridge the day Abby and Libby were killed

DELPHI, Ind. (WISH) — Richard Allen, the man arrested in the 2017 double murder of Abigail Williams and Liberty German near Delphi, told a state conservation officer he was in the area on the day of the killings, but his report may have been considered unfounded, a police source tells I-Team 8...

www.wishtv.com

 

[gizmobtj]

I appreciate this reminder & you’re so right to point out how essential it is to keep in mind the rights of the accused!

But while we haven’t seen a single letter of the prosecution’s case here due to sealed PC/AA, their case is not the same thing as the evidence. We have seen pics & heard the voice of the man who, at min, followed & menaced (& IMO kidnapped) the girls immediately before their murder. IMO the match bet this evidence & the man arrested is… to put it mildly… compelling. IMO.

We also know that he put himself at the location at or near the time in question - another compelling bit of evidence.

BUT was actually thinking yesterday about how he placed himself at scene … does anyone remember precisely where that info came from? I know it was in MSM with the story that he spoke to a conservation officer shortly after ‘the Feb 13 killings,’ but does anyone recall the source, if any, of the underlying info itself? Tia!!

All good points. The story is that RA told a conservation officer that he was on the bridge that afternoon but did not see the girls. This source was an anyonomous "police source ."

Source: Investigators have known for years that the Delphi suspect was on the Monon High Bridge the day Abby and Libby were killed

DELPHI, Ind. (WISH) — Richard Allen, the man arrested in the 2017 double murder of Abigail Williams and Liberty German near Delphi, told a state conservation officer he was in the area on the day of the killings, but his report may have been considered unfounded, a police source tells I-Team 8...

www.wishtv.com

 

[gizmobtj]

I believe this has to be completed?

i.e Law Enforcement must report to the Court an inventory of what was seized?

That's my understanding

 

[CSIDreamer]

BBM. Yes, assuming he's guilty that is. Or perhaps his 'bewilderment' is an act. We'll know soon enough.

He may be one of those that has perfected the innocent bewildered act. While I've noticed it can certainly serve people well, murder charges are a whole different ballgame. Time will tell. JMO