Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #162

[MistyWaters]

Early on, LE said they were looking for someone who was a transient, was "passing through", that sort of thing. I found this to be odd, and the 6,000+ digital billboards even more odd, considering the location of the bridge, CS, etc. When I visited later that year, just driving around there convinced me it had to be a local, or someone who knew the area and lives not far from there.

Put RA's lifetime in reverse, and we have what a lot of folks thought would end up being BG. I think there's a possibility RA did "stage" the CS in the sense that he made it look like a non-local did it, somehow. I think that's what may have thrown off investigators early on.

JMO

Just guessing but good chance LE received a tip about someone walking down the highway and so that became a possible lead. Then if the tip proved legitimate possibly they were able to rule that person out so next the focus was put on someone familiar with the bridge including access to and from. I can’t think of any means of staging a crime scene to indicate where the perp resided.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

Just guessing but good chance LE received a tip about someone walking down the highway and so that became a possible lead. Then if the tip proved legitimate possibly they were able to rule that person out so next the focus was put on someone familiar with the bridge including access to and from. I can’t think of any means of staging a crime scene to indicate where the perp resided.

JMO

They said possibly someone with a bag or backpack. Thought maybe if they found one, it threw them off. Or that the scene was staged to make it look like someone was squatting there.

I just can't figure out why LE early on were looking for a transient type person, it's Feb. in Indiana. As mild as that Winter was, not many people live here in the woods this time of year.

Furthermore, they never put out vehicle descriptions, despite early on having videographic evidence of vehicles within the timeframe in question, traveling that stretch of C.R. 300. Just baffles me. So were they looking for a transient or was that a red herring early on? My guess is they scrambled to throw any vague suspect description out there, to get tips in, when they should have said early on BG could be local, and in fact probably is local. IMO, few people, unless they're an IK type, goes out in the woods and kills random people. This case is such a rare type of case, it just screams "local", BG went through more trouble than most random killers go through to perpetrate their crimes.

I just think a lot of the trouble he was willing to bear was partly to throw off LE, the search, etc.

Which includes the CS in my mind, I think he left something there to throw off the investigation, and LE took the bait.

JMO

 

[minazoe]

AFAIK, we do not know if Libby and Abby were or were not sexually assaulted.
Or have I missed some news?

wether or not they were sexually assaulted does not matter. this was a sexually motivated crime 100 percent. mOO

 

[Megnut]

Perhaps there was staging prior. For instance if someone gathered up assorted debris from under the bridge and peppered the scene with it. Instant homeless camp. DNA pea soup.

JMO

 

[Trebor5591]

That's what I thought from the get go. They whispered something and he's paranoid/weak/emotionally immature person who can't handle teenage girls giggling at him. He exploded in anger. Grow up dude.

However, if he had a gun and a knife with him already, he was probably always ready to attack someone at sometime.

In my opinion, lot's of guys go around armed for self-defense purposes, even or especially while hiking, it is an increasing dangerous world after all. So RA may have been armed for self defense, rather than for stalking or planned assault. Then he reacted as you mention above to what he perceived as mockery, in a murderous fashion. I think it is a reasonable theory, really the only logical one I have seen. I just can't believe that he woke up that day and decided that was the day he was going to kill two girls for no reason other than hatred. After all, he was a married man with a daughter and no arrest record. There has plenty of time for past incidents to be uncovered, and I've heard nothing. I wonder if he was under the influence of something that day? all my opinion only

 

[steeltowngirl]

wether or not they were sexually assaulted does not matter. this was a sexually motivated crime 100 percent. mOO

Agree. I was responding to another poster who mentioned there was no SA. We do not yet know for sure, either way.

I have always felt the murders involved SA (attempted or completed). RSO’s were brought in for questioning soon after the murders.
Clothing was found in the creek.

jmo

 

[TL4S]

None of us knows what triggered the killer to kill that day, which is scary, in and of itself. But, for me, it's difficult to believe that the girls making a snarky comment to a man, who just so happened to be armed with a gun and knife, while all of them were by chance alone at the bridge, would result in him abducting them down the hill, removing their clothing, crossing the creek, killing them, moving and staging them in some form, leaving behind signatures, and still being in the area, muddy and bloody, an hour and forty-five minutes later.

 

[steeltowngirl]

They said possibly someone with a bag or backpack. Thought maybe if they found one, it threw them off. Or that the scene was staged to make it look like someone was squatting there.

I just can't figure out why LE early on were looking for a transient type person, it's Feb. in Indiana. As mild as that Winter was, not many people live here in the woods this time of year.

^RSBM

That was weird about the backpack / hitchhiker. They must have had a tip of some sort.

IIRC, there were some reports of a panhandler near the bridge in the weeks prior to the murders. A homeless person, Daniel Nations, was investigated at one point.

But I have not seen anything to indicate there was a transient camp in the Monon bridge area, nor a large homeless population in Delphi.

But, there was a homeless camp in Indianapolis where officials told the inhabitants they needed to leave, because they would be closing the camp. They were told this a few days before the murders in Delphi. The camp was also near a rail line. But Indianapolis is about 70 miles away. Quite a walk, it would take several days of hiking all day.
Indianapolis homeless camp 'The Jungle' to close

Homeless advocates ramping up services with closure of 'The Jungle'

The homeless camp is set to close at the end of March.

www.wishtv.com

 

[MistyWaters]

None of us knows what triggered the killer to kill that day, which is scary, in and of itself. But, for me, it's difficult to believe that the girls making a snarky comment to a man, who just so happened to be armed with a gun and knife, while all of them were by chance alone at the bridge, would result in him abducting them down the hill, removing their clothing, crossing the creek, killing them, moving and staging them in some form, leaving behind signatures, and still being in the area, muddy and bloody, an hour and forty-five minutes later.

Quote BBM
Interesting you mention that. I recently read that one of the main reasons people follow true crime cases is so they can feel safe. Thinking about that odd statement, it seems there’s a tendency to want to see obvious red flags that would alert everyone associated to the perp that he could potentially be dangerous and thus reassure everyone there’s nobody in our personal lives like that.

Just food for thought……

 

[Arkay]

In my opinion, lot's of guys go around armed for self-defense purposes, even or especially while hiking, it is an increasing dangerous world after all. So RA may have been armed for self defense, rather than for stalking or planned assault. Then he reacted as you mention above to what he perceived as mockery, in a murderous fashion. I think it is a reasonable theory, really the only logical one I have seen. I just can't believe that he woke up that day and decided that was the day he was going to kill two girls for no reason other than hatred. After all, he was a married man with a daughter and no arrest record. There has plenty of time for past incidents to be uncovered, and I've heard nothing. I wonder if he was under the influence of something that day? all my opinion only

None of us knows what triggered the killer to kill that day, which is scary, in and of itself. But, for me, it's difficult to believe that the girls making a snarky comment to a man, who just so happened to be armed with a gun and knife, while all of them were by chance alone at the bridge, would result in him abducting them down the hill, removing their clothing, crossing the creek, killing them, moving and staging them in some form, leaving behind signatures, and still being in the area, muddy and bloody, an hour and forty-five minutes later.

@Trebor5591 I respect your opinion, but I have to say I definitely am more aligned with @TL4S line of thinking.

Even if you think RA would not just suddenly kill some young girls out of nowhere, and was armed because that’s common in Indiana, it’s equally incredible to me that a man with allegedly no plans to murder would react so violently to teenage snickering. And of course we have no one to tell us if anything like this even took place.

Unless RA ever says “oh yeah, I was minding my own business, then these girls mouthed off at me, so I lost it,” we will never know.

IMO I cannot agree that murdering two teenagers just because of a flippant or mocking comment is, as you say, a “reasonable” and “logical” theory.

MOO someone so volatile as to do that is someone who was mentally ready to kill. No “normal” person would slaughter two young girls, and commit all the details listed by @TL4S, for such a trifling reason.

Even if he is married and has a daughter. In fact, a man with a grown daughter should already be familiar with how teenaged girls can act at times.

IMO then, no excuses for him.

 

[Falling Down]

In my opinion, lot's of guys go around armed for self-defense purposes, even or especially while hiking, it is an increasing dangerous world after all. So RA may have been armed for self defense, rather than for stalking or planned assault. Then he reacted as you mention above to what he perceived as mockery, in a murderous fashion. I think it is a reasonable theory, really the only logical one I have seen. I just can't believe that he woke up that day and decided that was the day he was going to kill two girls for no reason other than hatred. After all, he was a married man with a daughter and no arrest record. There has plenty of time for past incidents to be uncovered, and I've heard nothing. I wonder if he was under the influence of something that day? all my opinion only

My issue with this is, again, why go through all that trouble? He walked 850 feet of a scary bridge, only to be mocked by two girls?

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

^RSBM

That was weird about the backpack / hitchhiker. They must have had a tip of some sort.

IIRC, there were some reports of a panhandler near the bridge in the weeks prior to the murders. A homeless person, Daniel Nations, was investigated at one point.

But I have not seen anything to indicate there was a transient camp in the Monon bridge area, nor a large homeless population in Delphi.

But, there was a homeless camp in Indianapolis where officials told the inhabitants they needed to leave, because they would be closing the camp. They were told this a few days before the murders in Delphi. The camp was also near a rail line. But Indianapolis is about 70 miles away. Quite a walk, it would take several days of hiking all day.
Indianapolis homeless camp 'The Jungle' to close

Homeless advocates ramping up services with closure of 'The Jungle'

The homeless camp is set to close at the end of March.

www.wishtv.com

Great points.

I went down the transient rabbit hole early on, even going so far as to look up the interurban line which ran through there, from here (Fort Wayne), many years ago. It can be walked in spots along IN 25 and the Norfolk Southern line. The latter runs from Fort Wayne, through Delphi, and on to Lafayette and points south. Then is crosses the Wabash R. into IL. Literally many hours spent thinking, gee, could he have walked to Logansport? There's a NS yard there and thus a transfer point to other RR paths away from there.

Maybe he walked the old ROW from the south, from C.R. 200? Impossible, it's impassable through those woods. South of that farmers have taken back the lands. C.R. 625? Too risky.

Maybe he caught a slow-mover through Delphi? NS only stops there on occasion, rarely during Winter. The grain terminal probably had a handful of people there that day with little to do.

From the Deer Creek gorge to the east side of Delphi is little over half a mile on foot. But what would a transient do when they get there? Hobos and other transients wouldn't stop in Delphi, there's hardly anything to do without arousing attention, no place to hang out with other hobos, and besides, how would they find MHB or for that matter even care? During a mild Winter they would have aroused suspicion there at the gorge.

I mention all this not as a lecture, but as a process of elimination. I took a lot of time to research such options. My take after all this was where I started at the beginning, BG had the day off from work and was home for supper.

JMO

 

[somequestions]

Yeah, I kind of agree. I think maybe he moved them only enough to get them out of view and perhaps partially covered them, as well. But I'm still stuck on the idea that DG started calling L's phone at 3:11. Originally, I though it was long over by then, but if we believe "muddy and bloody" sighting time at nearly 4pm, that might suggest he was with them when DG got there and started calling and searching for them, maybe yelling out their names, etc. So, I think it's possible the killer hastily tried to get them and himself out of view.

This is another aspect of the case that bothered me when I first read about it, especially after it was revealed clothing from the girls was thrown into the creek.

Does anyone know where Liberty German's phone was located in relation to the crime scene?

Maybe the phone was found in the creek? Or maybe Liberty German did not have the volume for the ringer on? Or it could be the phone was found far enough away from the crime scene that no one could hear it?

The creek was right next to the crime scene and if the killer would throw clothes into the creek, why would they not also throw a phone that is making noise into the creek? I think throwing the phone into the creek would be an easy thing to do.

 

[TL4S]

This is another aspect of the case that bothered me when I first read about it, especially after it was revealed clothing from the girls was thrown into the creek.

Does anyone know where Liberty German's phone was located in relation to the crime scene?

Maybe the phone was found in the creek? Or maybe Liberty German did not have the volume for the ringer on? Or it could be the phone was found far enough away from the crime scene that no one could hear it?

The creek was right next to the crime scene and if the killer would throw clothes into the creek, why would they not also throw a phone that is making noise into the creek? I think throwing the phone into the creek would be an easy thing to do.

I've long wondered if the phone was found in the creek. Also I've wondered on which side of the creek was the clothing removed, and how did the clothing physically end up in the creek? I kind of feel like the phone was either dropped or knocked from her hand somewhere on the south side, or it ended up with the other belongings in the creek. Jmo.

It's concerning to me how NMcL has asked for, first, the sealing, and now, for only RA and his attorneys to view the discovery evidence. Not that I think any of that is incredibly unusual in a case involving minor victims and witnesses, and maybe other people involved, but it makes me worried that some of the evidence might be digital imagery that will be devastating. It might have to come out at trial, where the judge has some discretion on who views it, but it shouldn't be known about beforehand, imo.

 

[TL4S]

In my opinion, lot's of guys go around armed for self-defense purposes, even or especially while hiking, it is an increasing dangerous world after all. So RA may have been armed for self defense, rather than for stalking or planned assault. Then he reacted as you mention above to what he perceived as mockery, in a murderous fashion. I think it is a reasonable theory, really the only logical one I have seen. I just can't believe that he woke up that day and decided that was the day he was going to kill two girls for no reason other than hatred. After all, he was a married man with a daughter and no arrest record. There has plenty of time for past incidents to be uncovered, and I've heard nothing. I wonder if he was under the influence of something that day? all my opinion only

While I don't necessarily think he killed them due to their mocking him, I also can't believe he just got up one day and decided to murder out of hatred. And I, too, wonder if he was under the influence of something.

I'm also still unconvinced that he just randomly showed up on a routine hunt for a fantasy kill. If so, I'd have to believe then that he just so happened to arrive with exactly enough time to get to the bridge only minutes before the girls, all while ignoring other potential victims, who said he looked like he was on a mission, and that one of the victims by chance already had a behavioral pattern of talking online to "boys" she didn't know, possibly giving away her address and other identifying details, and who posted her whereabouts on SM.

I don't believe this was random, even though for years, I did.

 

[Yemelyan]

This is another aspect of the case that bothered me when I first read about it, especially after it was revealed clothing from the girls was thrown into the creek.

Does anyone know where Liberty German's phone was located in relation to the crime scene?

Maybe the phone was found in the creek? Or maybe Liberty German did not have the volume for the ringer on? Or it could be the phone was found far enough away from the crime scene that no one could hear it?

The creek was right next to the crime scene and if the killer would throw clothes into the creek, why would they not also throw a phone that is making noise into the creek? I think throwing the phone into the creek would be an easy thing to do.

The public does not know the exact location where the phone was found. Presumably investigators are keeping the info secret as evidentiary information that only the killer would know. They have only said that the phone was found in the vicinity, or same general area, of the girls' bodies. So yes - to me, the creek COULD be the vicinity. But we don't know.

One other piece of information about the phone was given out by Sgt. Riley in the podcast Down the Hill, when he discussed the crime scene. He said that when phone was found they had to expand the perimeter of the already established crime scene. It's unclear if Riley meant that they had to expand the perimeter of the scene to include the location where the phone was found, or if they had to expand it to include the bridge after viewing what was on the phone and seeing that the killer encountered them there.

The photo of the person on the bridge, who LE first said they wanted to talk to because he could be a witness, was released to the public in the early evening of February 15th after the girls were found around noon the day prior. If this photo came directly from the phone, then that is not a lot of time to extract it if the device was sitting in a creek for almost 24 hours. Not sure how easy or how difficult it would be to do data recovery from a cell phone after water submersion so maybe this is not a big of a deal as I would imagine.

 

[Tealgrove]

I've long wondered if the phone was found in the creek. Also I've wondered on which side of the creek was the clothing removed, and how did the clothing physically end up in the creek? I kind of feel like the phone was either dropped or knocked from her hand somewhere on the south side, or it ended up with the other belongings in the creek. Jmo.

It's concerning to me how NMcL has asked for, first, the sealing, and now, for only RA and his attorneys to view the discovery evidence. Not that I think any of that is incredibly unusual in a case involving minor victims and witnesses, and maybe other people involved, but it makes me worried that some of the evidence might be digital imagery that will be devastating. It might have to come out at trial, where the judge has some discretion on who views it, but it shouldn't be known about beforehand, imo.

ISP: More audio recovered from slain Delphi teen's phone

“We are getting closer every day. I know that is cliché but we are.”

www.indystar.com

According to this article, the phone was found at the crime scene. See last paragraph.

 

[Boxer]

Just guessing but good chance LE received a tip about someone walking down the highway and so that became a possible lead. Then if the tip proved legitimate possibly they were able to rule that person out so next the focus was put on someone familiar with the bridge including access to and from. I can’t think of any means of staging a crime scene to indicate where the perp resided.

JMO

MOO about walking on the highway (road) it might be that since BG was seen walking on 300 toward i25 it’s logical he might have been headed to i25, and they asked for sightings of a hitchhiker along i25. They also searched the RR tracks that go through. This may be where the transient idea originally sprang from.

It’s pretty sad that if they put this description together with the CO interview together along with a small black car backed up to the old CPS in the first week they probably would have had this arrest within weeks.

 

[sandy_80]

While I don't necessarily think he killed them due to their mocking him, I also can't believe he just got up one day and decided to murder out of hatred. And I, too, wonder if he was under the influence of something.

I'm also still unconvinced that he just randomly showed up on a routine hunt for a fantasy kill. If so, I'd have to believe then that he just so happened to arrive with exactly enough time to get to the bridge only minutes before the girls, all while ignoring other potential victims, who said he looked like he was on a mission, and that one of the victims by chance already had a behavioral pattern of talking online to "boys" she didn't know, possibly giving away her address and other identifying details, and who posted her whereabouts on SM.

I don't believe this was random, even though for years, I did.

other possible victims ?
there is only the teen girl witness who was with others and was leaving ..she wasnt even a choice
he was heading towards the killing site

 

[somequestions]

I've long wondered if the phone was found in the creek. Also I've wondered on which side of the creek was the clothing removed, and how did the clothing physically end up in the creek? I kind of feel like the phone was either dropped or knocked from her hand somewhere on the south side, or it ended up with the other belongings in the creek. Jmo.

It's concerning to me how NMcL has asked for, first, the sealing, and now, for only RA and his attorneys to view the discovery evidence. Not that I think any of that is incredibly unusual in a case involving minor victims and witnesses, and maybe other people involved, but it makes me worried that some of the evidence might be digital imagery that will be devastating. It might have to come out at trial, where the judge has some discretion on who views it, but it shouldn't be known about beforehand, imo.

The other possibility is that maybe the killer left the scene of the crime before Libby started to receive any phone calls.

The idea that maybe the killer has some sort of hearing problem is one of the reasons I thought the murderer in this case might have some sort of disability. The answer could be as simple as Liberty German kept the sound off on her phone when it received any sort of message.

Without knowing what the police know, it is more guessing and speculation.