IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #163

[Falling Down]

Delphi is a small community so I’d be very surprised if anybody withheld anything they noticed in and around the trails that day that might’ve resulted in an earlier arrest, just because LE didn’t release enough evidence. Everyone knew how BG was dressed by the photo that was released. That someone was actually sighted dressed like that adds no further information.

The greater danger in releasing too much information is people can unintentionally become convinced that they must’ve saw the exact same thing even if they didn’t as it’s always easier to go wth the flow than to oppose it. Worse than that is somebody who just wants their 15 minutes of fame by creatively collaborating info that LE has already released. Then LE loses any and all means to differentiate those types from credible witnesses. They can only build their case by keeping known facts close to their chest and using that as a yardstick to gauge credibility of information that comes forth to them. JMO

I've read some other recent posts about these issues and appreciate the input. @MistyWaters I agree with the premise of your post, while at the same time I've they should have released more info. I think that LE playing their hand in this case would have been a bad move. They were right to not release info, and I'm sure they had valid reasons for doing such. Turned out they certainly did have information that was relevent to identifying BG.

One reason why I see it being important is that area has small population centers and is quite rural, I've been there and can imagine the possibility of a witch hunt type scenario could have happened early on, it was bad enough out there with people being harassed. I happened to be in Kokomo in for work for 6 months in 2020 and 2021, the case was still bothering people in the area, and people were making comments about the 2nd sketch. One young guy at work looked like the sketch released in 2019 and got ribbed for it.

I think even releasing the three images was a little risky. They could have put out a description of the perp and been done with it. I just think sometimes LE release stuff, and then the waters get muddled in a short period of time.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

To those of you who think the secrecy is necessary, did any of you see anything in the docs that were unsealed that you felt harmed the case by allowing the public to view them?

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I'm wondering about the reason there's so much secrecy in the RA case possibly being the ongoing and maybe parallel investigation of the biggest Child Crime ring in Indiana history being involved. If there's a Grand Jury seated for that and it's crossing over to RA's case. LE/prosecutors have stated "others" may be involved in the Delphi murders, so that's a big something hanging over everything, IMO.

**One of the biggest. Not the biggest.

 

[MistyWaters]

**One of the biggest. Not the biggest.

Yes that’s right. It’s unlike LE to publicize a forewarning so potential participants have plenty of time to cover their tracks/destroy devices/relocate, etc. JMO I think it mentioned only as a ploy at intimidating KAK into admitting something less significant but he didn’t bite.

 

[MistyWaters]

To those of you who think the secrecy is necessary, did any of you see anything in the docs that were unsealed that you felt harmed the case by allowing the public to view them?

Because RA was publicly unknown up until his arrest, I‘d guess LE wanted to wait a few days before releasing the PCA to allow for any tips coming to be unrelated to the released information in order to protect the integrity of the investigation.

The public “wants to know” stuff mainly to quell curiosity, while the role of LE is withholding evidence to ensure a successful prosecution isn’t jeopardized.

I recall a local murder case where the accused had told someone details about a murder which aligned with the actual COD. However the COD had also been leaked to SM so the defence argued the defendant had no direct involvement but was only repeating info from SM. So for example, what if RA had shared theories with buddies or coworkers about the Delphi case at any time in the past, then what he said would become significant only after the announcement of his arrest but before the public learned what LE knew about his potential involvement.

 

[Niner]

In my notes I have - if need be bail review hearing will continue on 6/16 - so expecting the 6/15 hearing to be quite long for a bail hearing....

 

[FrostedGlass]

Because RA was publicly unknown up until his arrest, I‘d guess LE wanted to wait a few days before releasing the PCA to allow for any tips coming to be unrelated to the released information in order to protect the integrity of the investigation.

The public “wants to know” stuff mainly to quell curiosity, while the role of LE is withholding evidence to ensure a successful prosecution isn’t jeopardized.

I recall a local murder case where the accused had told someone details about a murder which aligned with the actual COD. However the COD had also been leaked to SM so the defence argued the defendant had no direct involvement but was only repeating info from SM. So for example, what if RA had shared theories with buddies or coworkers about the Delphi case at any time in the past, then what he said would become significant only after the announcement of his arrest but before the public learned what LE knew about his potential involvement.

LE did not willingly release the PCA and charging info.

11/29/2022

Order Issued The Court, having had this matter under advisement following a hearing conducted on November 22, 2022, now denies the State's Verified Request to Prohibit Public Access to a Court Record, in part. The Court further finds that the Media Intervenors' Motion for Leave to Intervene is moot, and therefore, denied. Court orders that the redacted Charging Informations and Affidavit for Probable Cause, submitted by the State at the hearing on November 22, 2022, be filed with the Clerk of the Court with this Order, and further that the Clerk shall not release (without prior Court approval) the original, sealed unredacted Informations and Affidavit Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 11/28/2022

The public "wanting to know" isn't all about curiosity of the details. For some, it's also about keeping the actions of those in charge of upholding the law in public view. Sometimes, what goes on behind closed doors is not lawful and just.

 

[MistyWaters]

LE did not willingly release the PCA and charging info.

11/29/2022

Order Issued The Court, having had this matter under advisement following a hearing conducted on November 22, 2022, now denies the State's Verified Request to Prohibit Public Access to a Court Record, in part. The Court further finds that the Media Intervenors' Motion for Leave to Intervene is moot, and therefore, denied. Court orders that the redacted Charging Informations and Affidavit for Probable Cause, submitted by the State at the hearing on November 22, 2022, be filed with the Clerk of the Court with this Order, and further that the Clerk shall not release (without prior Court approval) the original, sealed unredacted Informations and Affidavit Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 11/28/2022

The public "wanting to know" isn't all about curiosity of the details. For some, it's also about keeping the actions of those in charge of upholding the law in public view. Sometimes, what goes on behind closed doors is not lawful and just.

How does the public reading words written on paper prove RA’s arrest was lawful and just? I can’t really follow that justification because it’s not until a trial is held that the testimony of unnamed people mentioned in it is heard and evidence said to be collected is actually produced.

That similar to expecting the entire police file is released to the public to ensure the investigation was on the up and up, then the public could take over the role of a defence lawyer.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Because RA was publicly unknown up until his arrest, I‘d guess LE wanted to wait a few days before releasing the PCA to allow for any tips coming to be unrelated to the released information in order to protect the integrity of the investigation.

The public “wants to know” stuff mainly to quell curiosity, while the role of LE is withholding evidence to ensure a successful prosecution isn’t jeopardized.

I recall a local murder case where the accused had told someone details about a murder which aligned with the actual COD. However the COD had also been leaked to SM so the defence argued the defendant had no direct involvement but was only repeating info from SM. So for example, what if RA had shared theories with buddies or coworkers about the Delphi case at any time in the past, then what he said would become significant only after the announcement of his arrest but before the public learned what LE knew about his potential involvement.

As always, this is a really good post but I missed the answer to my question: did you see anything in the released documents that you thought damaged the case?

 

[MistyWaters]

As always, this is a really good post but I missed the answer to my question: did you see anything in the released documents that you thought damaged the case?

I don’t recall anyone stating releasing documents could potentially damage the case. Wasn’t the reason to continue the investigation?

Experts weigh in on why Delphi arrest court documents are still sealed

INDIANAPOLIS — Two charges of murder have been filed against Richard Allen, but the details behind those charges are still under wraps. The probable cause affidavit is still sealed, despite a…

fox59.com

“As for what reason could have been given to the judge to keep the docs sealed, both Staples and former FBI Special Agent in Charge Paul Keenan said investigators could still be trying to make more arrests.

”If there are other suspects in there you want to have a chance to go after them as well,” Keenan said.”

 

[FrostedGlass]

I don’t recall anyone stating releasing documents could potentially damage the case. Wasn’t the reason to continue the investigation?

Experts weigh in on why Delphi arrest court documents are still sealed

INDIANAPOLIS — Two charges of murder have been filed against Richard Allen, but the details behind those charges are still under wraps. The probable cause affidavit is still sealed, despite a…

fox59.com

“As for what reason could have been given to the judge to keep the docs sealed, both Staples and former FBI Special Agent in Charge Paul Keenan said investigators could still be trying to make more arrests.

”If there are other suspects in there you want to have a chance to go after them as well,” Keenan said.”

I'm NAL but I consider the case and the investigation as being tied together as one.

If NM's intent was to keep other suspects in the dark, I'm puzzled as to why he announced his suspicions publicly.

Among other things, Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McLeland argued that releasing the probable cause affidavit and other court documents related to Richard Allen would “create serious and imminent danger to the public interest” and possibly damage an “ongoing murder investigation.”

Motion reveals prosecutor’s reasons for sealing court documents in Delphi murder case

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. – We now have some additional insight into the reasons Carroll County’s prosecutor asked a judge to seal records in the Delphi murder case. Among other things, Carroll County P…

fox59.com

 

[TL4S]

I'm NAL but I consider the case and the investigation as being tied together as one.

If NM's intent was to keep other suspects in the dark, I'm puzzled as to why he announced his suspicions publicly.

Motion reveals prosecutor’s reasons for sealing court documents in Delphi murder case

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. – We now have some additional insight into the reasons Carroll County’s prosecutor asked a judge to seal records in the Delphi murder case. Among other things, Carroll County P…

fox59.com

I will admit that I haven't followed a ton of cases, but in a couple I've been watching recently, it was announced rather quickly after the arrest that LE believed the person acted alone (the ID murders, for example). Certainly that isn't always the case, but in Delphi, you had the RA arrest PC, then a couple weeks later, NMcL in court, saying that they are still looking to see if others are involved (or specifically that they have "good reason to believe" there are). Everyone has an opinion about why this happened, but in the end, with the gag order, there's no way to know for certain. I guess we wait and see. I'm so curious about this, and I can't help but wonder if another name will come out of the woodwork down the road. JMO.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I will admit that I haven't followed a ton of cases, but in a couple I've been watching recently, it was announced rather quickly after the arrest that LE believed the person acted alone (the ID murders, for example). Certainly that isn't always the case, but in Delphi, you had the RA arrest PC, then a couple weeks later, NMcL in court, saying that they are still looking to see if others are involved (or specifically that they have "good reason to believe" there are). Everyone has an opinion about why this happened, but in the end, with the gag order, there's no way to know for certain. I guess we wait and see. I'm so curious about this, and I can't help but wonder if another name will come out of the woodwork down the road. JMO.

Nothing would surprise me in this case. This and the KAK case are such an inter-woven mess that, IMO, anything can happen. I guess it's the totality of these that make me uneasy. The little things, like if Carter really did tell the prosecutor in KAK's case: No Plea, he should go to trial. Why would he say that?

The refusal of ISP to release RA's charging docs, saying they were under the orders of RA's prosecutor. Why? We've now seen the docs and there's nothing there except the felony murder charges and Tony Liggett's name appeared.

Any day of the week, I can go to this link and see who was arrested in Hendricks County. I can see a picture, name, age, weight, height, address, who arrested them, booking time, what they are charged with, bond... So why were they so intent on sealing that info on RA?

Roster

 

[sandy_80]

with all the witnesses the PCA relvealed .. i wonder why they didnt bother to ask them to vertify KAK and dad BEFORE GOING ON A $$$ river search
it seems those witnesses are only crucial when they can match a suspect

 

[Justice101]

In my opinion from what I've read over the year, KAK is totally unrelated and RA acted alone.

In most jurisdictions, it doesn't matter if he acted alone or with someone else.. They don't need to prove or disprove there was another perpetrator. Murder is murder and participating even partially in a murder (that is, kidnapping and moving the girls to the one who killed them) is still considered part of the act.. .therefore murder.

There is virtually no chance RA is getting off on this. The law is not dumb.... it's a culmination of hundreds of years of defense tricks/smokescreens being tried and failing the test.

Please relax. RA is the perpetrator and we will see the day of reconing soon enough.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Sorry, I don’t think I expressed myself very well in my post.
I don’t think RA would have turned himself in. But if he had been aware of some of what LE had that early, he might have made a mistake that brought him to LE’s attention.
LE was absolutely correct to keep some evidence secret, especially evidence from the actual crime scene.
That being said, I do not see at all what was gained by waiting two years to mention the car at the CPS building or by not ever revealing to the public the killer had walked out through the cemetery. Somebody could have added to that information, but we’ll never know because it was secret.
Six years and an accidental arrest.

But what if they had mentioned the car back then and then RA got rid of it? At the time they didn't have enough for a warrant not until recently, so he could have easily gotten rid of it being afraid of it containing evidence.

Maybe LE recovered vital DNA in that car after towing it when he was arrested? They had to protect some things until they were able to arrest and charge him.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

But what if they had mentioned the car back then and then RA got rid of it? At the time they didn't have enough for a warrant not until recently, so he could have easily gotten rid of it being afraid of it containing evidence.

Maybe LE recovered vital DNA in that car after towing it when he was arrested? They had to protect some things until they were able to arrest and charge him.

JMO

I think LE is shockingly lucky RA still had the car six years later when they finally identified him. The chances of finding real forensic evidence is diminished greatly. Yes, he could have washed it thoroughly knowing LE was looking for it. But someone would have seen that. How many cases have we heard of where someone testifies they saw the defendant washing their car like never before after a crime. Plus how many times has it been washed in six years.
Maybe someone early on being made aware of a suspicious car might have remembered it well enough to say what kind it was or add to LE’s information about it. Sure RA could have sold it. LE could have monitored car sales and identified someone getting rid of those kind of cars.
My point is releasing information like this forces the killer to do something that someone notices instead of hiding in plain sight.
There was nothing to lose from releasing that information early In my opinion.
Nothing about the actual crime scene should have been released.


Edit: typo

 

[TL4S]

I think LE is shockingly lucky RA still had the car six years later when they finally identified him. The chances of finding real forensic evidence is diminished greatly. Yes, he could have washed it thoroughly knowing LE was looking for it. But someone would have seen that. How many cases have we heard of where someone testifies they saw the defendant washing their car like never before after a crime. Plus how many times has it been washed in six years.
Maybe someone early on being made aware of a suspicious car might have remembered it well enough to say what kind it was or add to LE’s information about it. Sure RA could have sold it. LE could have monitored car sales and identified someone getting rid of those kind of cars.
My point is releasing information like this forces the killer to do something that someone notices instead of hiding in plain sight.
There was nothing to lose from releasing that information early In my opinion.
Nothing about the actual crime scene should have been released.


Edit: typo

What intrigues me is why LE decided to finally release the vehicle information at the same time as changing directions and switching to the YBG sketch. Are the two related?

I keep going back to GH's 2021 phone interview with a gentleman who said he saw an older model car parked along the side of the road, about halfway between the CPS lot and the curve in the road, from 8:45 am to at least 2:15 (it was still there when the gentleman left the area). He says his friend thought he saw the same vehicle parked on the other side of Freedom Bridge at 3:30. It's easy to think he might have his days mixed up, but he had paperwork from his job to back up the times, he reported it to police, and he knew about the camera on the HH having footage of several vehicles from that day. He said they did not capture the one he saw, which must have turned around and went the north way out (which makes sense if they ended up parked on the other side of Freedom Bridge soon after). So in 2021, he was telling GH that LE knew about a vehicle that was parked suspiciously at the CPS lot, but they didn't even know what color it was. That all matches what we later read in the PCA, so that makes this man's story more legitimate, imo. I'm very curious about this other car. Just because it wasn't mentioned in the PCA doesn't mean it wasn't there, or seen by witnesses.

 

[TL4S]

So prior to 2019, the suspect was a man with facial hair, in his 40s or 50s, with shorter hair and a hat. No vehicle was mentioned to the public. Then, in April 2019, we have the investigation going in a new direction. Suddenly the vehicle is important, and the suspect is younger and looks very different than the first sketch. DC says based on new information and intelligence, that sketch better represents the killer. In Oct. 2022, LE arrests RA, who IMOO appears to fit well to the original description and sketch (except for the long-standing "reddish-brown" hair bit). Afterwards, in response to a question about the YBG sketch, DC says he doesn't regret that strategy. The strategy to put forth a suspect description that was further from reality than the first one? I understand that investigations change and grow with time and new information, but this one seems more like a circle. I'm curious what happened to bring about the new direction, if any of it is still pertinent, or if it literally was just a "strategy."


From the PC:

During the course of this investigation, we have concluded the first sketch released will become secondary, as of today. The result of the new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe the sketch, which you will see shortly, IS the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls.

We believe this person is currently between the age range of 18 and 40, but might appear younger than his true age.

Directly to the Killer, who may be in this room: We believe you were hiding in plain sight. For more than 2 years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy. But we have.

DELPHI PRESS CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT (2019) - CrimeLights

 

[StarryStarryNight]

So prior to 2019, the suspect was a man with facial hair, in his 40s or 50s, with shorter hair and a hat. No vehicle was mentioned to the public. Then, in April 2019, we have the investigation going in a new direction. Suddenly the vehicle is important, and the suspect is younger and looks very different than the first sketch. DC says based on new information and intelligence, that sketch better represents the killer. In Oct. 2022, LE arrests RA, who IMOO appears to fit well to the original description and sketch (except for the long-standing "reddish-brown" hair bit). Afterwards, in response to a question about the YBG sketch, DC says he doesn't regret that strategy. The strategy to put forth a suspect description that was further from reality than the first one? I understand that investigations change and grow with time and new information, but this one seems more like a circle. I'm curious what happened to bring about the new direction, if any of it is still pertinent, or if it literally was just a "strategy."


From the PC:

During the course of this investigation, we have concluded the first sketch released will become secondary, as of today. The result of the new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe the sketch, which you will see shortly, IS the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls.

We believe this person is currently between the age range of 18 and 40, but might appear younger than his true age.

Directly to the Killer, who may be in this room: We believe you were hiding in plain sight. For more than 2 years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy. But we have.

DELPHI PRESS CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT (2019) - CrimeLights

LE has a lot of ‘splaining to do for sure.