IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #163

[katydid23]

One wouldn't expect an atty to sit while his client read 1000 reports but he probably expected for the prison officials to give the reports to RA. Privacy with phone calls, emails and probably even zoom meetings could be a concern...I think that was one issue noted in the emergency motion.

I don't know where the idea came about them sitting together all day, every day.

The idea about sitting together every day was because someone said tha attorneys were having to travel '3 hours per day.' So the question was 'why would they need to go see their client in person every day?'

Every inmate is given privacy with their attorney/client privileges in communications. Have there been incidents with RA where that privilege was not respected?

 

[katydid23]

The post I responded to stated a concern that many/all inmates could also request a move. My point is that most likely, no other person is in the unique circumstances of RA and that the long-term goal is to get through a possible trial without creating more reasons for an appeal. Keeping him in solitary confinement, which is often punitive treatment for convicted inmates, is not sustainable. They have no choice at the prison, he can't be mixed with the actual inmates.
Is there a valid reason he must stay where he is? What would be the objection to him being housed/treated like 99% of defendants awaiting trial?

Since being a defendant does not mean in-custody, I don't know how many of the 14 you say are awaiting trial are in-custody. In 2021, according to the linked article, 40% of murder defendants were out, on pretrial release. Some of those 14 defendants you mention, are not in jail. The ones in jail, not a prison, most likely have a local attorney/public defender assigned to that court/area.

RA is an outlier, he is being held in a prison which is a 3 hour roundtrip for his attorneys. Other in-custodies are being held in the jail in the jurisdiction where they are being prosecuted. So the actual number of defendants awaiting trial, while in a prison far away from their attorneys, is probably zero. As for accessibility, RA's attorneys have limited access to their client if they apply all of the prison attorney/visitation restrictions. From Westville's website:

"Requests for general in-person legal visits between attorneys and Incarcerated Individuals must be made to the facility where the Incarcerated Individuals is housed. Attorney/Incarcerated Individuals visit requests are being scheduled and will continue as long as it is safe to do so on a facility-by-facility basis. Based on the conditions of each facility, they are subject to being postponed or rescheduled. A reliable alternative to an in-person attorney/Incarcerated Individuals visit is to schedule a confidential phone call. Incarcerated Individuals must have the attorney's phone number added to their approved telephone list. All calls are to be 'collect calls' unless the Incarcerated Individuals utilizes prepaid minutes."

Standard Disclaimer: No sympathy for RA was expressed. His crimes were not minimized. I believe he will be found guilty or will plead guilty.

Westville Correctional Facility

www.in.gov

40% of Indy murder suspects in 2021 were on pretrial release, sentencing at time of crime

INDIANAPOLIS — A FOX59 investigation found that more than 40% of those accused of killing people in Indy this year were on pretrial release or serving post-conviction sentences. For victims, a quar…

fox59.com

"Requests for general in-person legal visits between attorneys and Incarcerated Individuals must be made to the facility where the Incarcerated Individuals is housed. Attorney/Incarcerated Individuals visit requests are being scheduled and will continue as long as it is safe to do so on a facility-by-facility basis. Based on the conditions of each facility, they are subject to being postponed or rescheduled. A reliable alternative to an in-person attorney/Incarcerated Individuals visit is to schedule a confidential phone call. Incarcerated Individuals must have the attorney's phone number added to their approved telephone list. All calls are to be 'collect calls' unless the Incarcerated Individuals utilizes prepaid minutes."


So why can't the attorneys buy him some prepaid minutes and they can talk on the phone confidentially?

If they are truly worried about his mental or physical health, request an emergency health intervention.

 

[FrostedGlass]

The idea about sitting together every day was because someone said tha attorneys were having to travel '3 hours per day.' So the question was 'why would they need to go see their client in person every day?'

Every inmate is given privacy with their attorney/client privileges in communications. Have there been incidents with RA where that privilege was not respected?

Ok. To clear that up, RA's atty Baldwin is based in Franklin, IN, which is about a 3 hour one-way drive to Westville. So each day he goes to see RA, whether it's daily, weekly or monthly, it's a 6 hour round trip. Rozzi is in Logansport so his drive isn't that long.

Here's what the motion says about communication:
10. It is difficult, if not impossible, for Mr. Allen's Attorneys to share
confidential and sensitive information with Mr. Allen due to the logistical challenges
associated with Mr. Allen's segregation and isolation to the extent that Mr. Allen is
being deprived of his constitutional right to assist in his defense.

 

[girlhasnoname]

No, it wasn't. This document was made public on the official and appropriate govt/judicial/law enforcement portal. Many people who had been watching the case saw it and downloaded it. And then several hours later, without warning, it was no longer able to be seen on the portal.

I stand corrected, but it still remains a fact - There is a gag order in place and nothing should have been made public. I'd say that's why it was quickly taken down. He was arrested based on Probable Cause, not just a whim by LE.

The Defense here has made some wonky public statements for their client in the past, so it wouldn't surprise me that they would have had something to do with it. Track record.

I want RA to have the same rights as any other defendant, but forgive me if I cannot muster sympathy for him being incarcerated and the conditions he's experiencing. There are two young innocent girls that were brutally murdered and lives of their family and loved ones changed forever that keep flashing in my mind so it's hard.

A person accused of these crimes who knows what LE has against them isn't going to flourish in jail. They know they could be facing the DP. This would manifest itself in the physical and mental status of the defendant.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Ok. To clear that up, RA's atty Baldwin is based in Franklin, IN, which is about a 3 hour one-way drive to Westville. So each day he goes to see RA, whether it's daily, weekly or monthly, it's a 6 hour round trip. Rozzi is in Logansport so his drive isn't that long.

Here's what the motion says about communication:
10. It is difficult, if not impossible, for Mr. Allen's Attorneys to share
confidential and sensitive information with Mr. Allen due to the logistical challenges
associated with Mr. Allen's segregation and isolation to the extent that Mr. Allen is
being deprived of his constitutional right to assist in his defense.

They gave the voluminous records in the Murdaugh case for him to review in his jail cell and he made prepaid calls to his attorneys. If RA is in seg pop, why can't they do the same and have him review them and meet weekly?

I really don't care if they move RA, but it shouldn't be based on RA's preference and convenience for family and attorneys. That would be opening a can of worms for every other defendant IMO.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

DELPHI, Ind. (CBS) -- Richard Allen, the man charged with the murder of two young teenage girls in Delphi, Indiana more than five years ago, will be moved to state prison for his own safety.

Court records showed Thursday that Allen asked to be transferred from the custody of the Carroll County, Indiana Sheriff's office to the custody of the Indiana Department of Corrections for safe keeping. The request was granted by Judge Benjamin Diener, court records show.

Richard Allen, man charged in girls' murder in Delphi, Indiana, to be moved to state prison for own safety

Allen, 50, of Delphi was charged with two counts of murder in the deaths of Abigail J. "Abby" Williams, 13, and Liberty Rose Lynn "Libby" German, 14.

www.cbsnews.com

Thanks; I was thinking it was CNN wrote that. The article is referencing the motion by Leasenby, which we've seen, and there is nothing in it stating RA asked for the transfer. I'm guessing that he could not request a transfer without an attorney. If he did request it, there should be some document showing that he did so, in my 'I'm NAL' opinion.

 

[girlhasnoname]

DELPHI, Ind. (CBS) -- Richard Allen, the man charged with the murder of two young teenage girls in Delphi, Indiana more than five years ago, will be moved to state prison for his own safety.

Court records showed Thursday that Allen asked to be transferred from the custody of the Carroll County, Indiana Sheriff's office to the custody of the Indiana Department of Corrections for safe keeping. The request was granted by Judge Benjamin Diener, court records show.

Richard Allen, man charged in girls' murder in Delphi, Indiana, to be moved to state prison for own safety

Allen, 50, of Delphi was charged with two counts of murder in the deaths of Abigail J. "Abby" Williams, 13, and Liberty Rose Lynn "Libby" German, 14.

www.cbsnews.com

Thank you STG, I knew I read that somewhere.

 

[raja]

I have no sympathy for RA because imho he is most likely guilty however I do have respect for the American Justice System. He is still presumed innocent until he is proven guilty. If only to protect any appeals down the road he should be able to consult in a satisfactory way with his Attorneys. Maybe he can do this 3 hours away IDK but he should be given the materials his attorneys provide in a timely fashion. I also agree that if those attorneys are implying mental medical issues have developed then they should be requesting medical intervention or evaluations should be made. They did not in the motion that was accidentally leaked. Perhaps there is another motion we have not seen. jMHO

 

[FrostedGlass]

They gave the voluminous records in the Murdaugh case for him to review in his jail cell and he made prepaid calls to his attorneys. If RA is in seg pop, why can't they do the same and have him review them and meet weekly?

I really don't care if they move RA, but it shouldn't be based on RA's preference and convenience for family and attorneys. That would be opening a can of worms for every other defendant IMO.

MOO

I don't know anything about the case you're referencing. In my years here on WS, following cases (mostly Indiana) I can't remember ever hearing of one where the accused was located half a state away from his court-appointed atty. If you know of some, please share.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I don't know anything about the case you're referencing. In my years here on WS, following cases (mostly Indiana) I can't remember ever hearing of one where the accused was located half a state away from his court-appointed atty. If you know of some, please share.

I'm not up for more research so we'll call a truce on this convo. Hah

 

[katydid23]

I don't know anything about the case you're referencing. In my years here on WS, following cases (mostly Indiana) I can't remember ever hearing of one where the accused was located half a state away from his court-appointed atty. If you know of some, please share.

Apparently, RA and his attorney ASKED for him to be moved, to Ind Dept. of Corrections.

"Court records showed Thursday that Allen asked to be transferred from the custody of the Carroll County, Indiana Sheriff's office to the custody of the Indiana Department of Corrections for safe keeping. The request was granted by Judge Benjamin Diener, court records show."

Maybe that is why he was relocated so far away?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Apparently, RA and his attorney ASKED for him to be moved, to Ind Dept. of Corrections.

"Court records showed Thursday that Allen asked to be transferred from the custody of the Carroll County, Indiana Sheriff's office to the custody of the Indiana Department of Corrections for safe keeping. The request was granted by Judge Benjamin Diener, court records show."

Maybe that is why he was relocated so far away?

RA did not have an attorney at that time. I've posted Leazenby's motion a couple of times; nowhere in it does it say there was a request from RA.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I’m looking for examples of other murder suspects being held in state prisons.

So far I’m finding housing for federal pre-trial detainees in Maryland and New York prisons.

Chesapeake Detention Facility
Chesapeake Detention Facility is located in Baltimore Maryland. It is a maximum security prison that houses over 500 of the states most violent offenders. This prison was formerly called a SuperMax. Chesapeake Detention Facility houses both male and female offenders, and is responsible for housing federal pre-trial detainees. The average term an inmate is incarcerated here is six months.

Chesapeake Detention Facility

Chesapeake Detention Facility Chesapeake Detention Facility is located in Baltimore Maryland. It is a maximum security prison that houses over 500 of the states most violent offenders. This prison was formerly called a SuperMax. Chesapeake Detention Facility houses both male and female...

www.prisonpro.com

MDC BROOKLYN
An administrative security metropolitan detention center.

For pretrial inmates, the same rules regarding sanitation apply; however, since most inmates are in the housing unit daily, sanitation commences at 7:30 a.m., unless otherwise posted on the unit bulletin board. The sanitation expectations are posted on the unit bulletin board. Beds must be made by 7:30 a.m. Inmates may sleep on a made bed after 7:30 a.m.

MDC Brooklyn

www.bop.gov

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

A reliable alternative to an in-person attorney/Incarcerated Individuals visit is to schedule a confidential phone call. Incarcerated Individuals must have the attorney's phone number added to their approved telephone list. All calls are to be 'collect calls' unless the Incarcerated Individuals utilizes prepaid minutes."

So why can't the attorneys buy him some prepaid minutes and they can talk on the phone confidentially?

I can't see any attorney being able to go over the mountain of witness information, possible testimony and evidence without being able to look at the documents in person with the client. Let alone on a phone call that has to fit into the prison's schedule of allowing RA his turn of using a tablet and a place to view the case file.
Those that put forth the argument that RA's location can be worked around and his attorney can adequately prepare trial this way, in my opinion, are disregarding the requirement that the attorneys give RA the best defense possible and not are acknowledging that this situation could be used for appeal. The idea that moving him to a jail is "special treatment" is incorrect. You are objecting to him being treated/housed the same as 99% or more, of defendants awaiting trials.
Feeling sorry for RA has nothing to do with my opinions, justice for the victims and a fair trial, not compromised by constitutional issues is what is important. If a judge decides to keep him where he is, I will presume that she/he/they have good reasons.

 

[MistyWaters]

This section pasted below of the Ind Criminal Code was referenced in Leazenby’s original safekeeping motion. In the recent motion by RA’s legal team, absolutely nothing about it pertains to his safety. Isn’t safety of their client something they should be primarily concerned about? How about Cass County Jail, does it have the resources to ensure RA is kept safe and protected?

It doesn’t matter if RA initiated the original move as it was authorized by the court however nothing is on record to indicate that he disputed it. It’s now April, his attorneys were appointed in November and no request has been made up
until now. It’s very much a throwing spaghetti at the wall type motion IMO as the primary concern is not clear. For example, if it’s RA physical and mental health is now a primary concern (which it probably should be) what assurance is there that will improve by only moving him to a different place?

2022 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 33. Preliminary Proceedings :: Chapter 11. Emergency Transfer of Certain Jail Inmates :: 35-33-11-1. Inmate in County Jail in Imminent Danger of Serious Bodily Injury or Death or Re

Justia Free Databases of U.S. Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

Article 33. Preliminary Proceedings​

Chapter 11. Emergency Transfer of Certain Jail Inmates​

35-33-11-1. Inmate in County Jail in Imminent Danger of Serious Bodily Injury or Death or Represents Substantial Threat to Safety of Others​

Universal Citation: IN Code § 35-33-11-1 (2022)
Sec. 1. Upon motion by the:
(1) sheriff;
(2) prosecuting attorney;
(3) defendant or his counsel;
(4) attorney general; or
(5) court;
alleging that an inmate in a county jail awaiting trial is in danger of serious bodily injury or death or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others, the court shall determine whether the inmate is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others. If the court finds that the inmate is in danger of serious bodily injury or death or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others, it shall order the sheriff to transfer the inmate to another county jail or to a facility of the department of correction designated by the commissioner of the department as suitable for the confinement of that prisoner and provided that space is available. For the purpose of this chapter, an inmate is not considered in danger of serious bodily injury or death due to an illness or other medical condition.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

I’m looking for examples of other murder suspects being held in state prisons.

So far I’m finding housing for federal pre-trial detainees in Maryland and New York prisons.

Chesapeake Detention Facility
Chesapeake Detention Facility is located in Baltimore Maryland. It is a maximum security prison that houses over 500 of the states most violent offenders. This prison was formerly called a SuperMax. Chesapeake Detention Facility houses both male and female offenders, and is responsible for housing federal pre-trial detainees. The average term an inmate is incarcerated here is six months.

Chesapeake Detention Facility

Chesapeake Detention Facility Chesapeake Detention Facility is located in Baltimore Maryland. It is a maximum security prison that houses over 500 of the states most violent offenders. This prison was formerly called a SuperMax. Chesapeake Detention Facility houses both male and female...

www.prisonpro.com

MDC BROOKLYN
An administrative security metropolitan detention center.

For pretrial inmates, the same rules regarding sanitation apply; however, since most inmates are in the housing unit daily, sanitation commences at 7:30 a.m., unless otherwise posted on the unit bulletin board. The sanitation expectations are posted on the unit bulletin board. Beds must be made by 7:30 a.m. Inmates may sleep on a made bed after 7:30 a.m.

MDC Brooklyn

www.bop.gov

I don't think that either of these detention facilities, which are for housing Federal pretrial detainees is comparable to RA's being held in a prison far from the jurisdiction he is charged in.

Chesapeake houses federal pre-trial detainees, and the Federal courthouse is right there in Baltimore.

MDC Brooklyn is not a prison, it is specifically for detainees. The Federal courthouse is 5 miles away.
An MDC, unlike a Federal Penitentiary, is designed to hold prisoners who have not yet been arraigned, have been denied bail, or are awaiting trial. MDCs also hold inmates on their way to their designated 'home' prison.
Convicted prisoners are transferred to one of a series of Federal Prisons, also run by the Bureau of Prisons.

Just for info, the federal detention centers have a generous visiting schedule for attorneys. MOO

https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/bro/bro_legal_visitors.pdf

• Legal visits are on a walk-in basis Monday-Friday during the hours of 8:00 AM – 7:30 PM and Saturday/Sunday/Federal Holidays during the hours of 8:00 AM – 3:30 PM. • If all private rooms are being utilized, you may utilize the social visiting area of the visiting room. MDC Brooklyn Guidelines for In Person Legal Visits • Legal visitors may enter the institution at any point during the visiting hours of operation.

 

[WingsOverTX]

I don't know anything about the case you're referencing. In my years here on WS, following cases (mostly Indiana) I can't remember ever hearing of one where the accused was located half a state away from his court-appointed atty. If you know of some, please share.

Which happened first? Was RA moved from jail to the prison before this attorney was assigned or after? If after, the discussion about distance should have come up at that time.

I believe RA's attorneys are simply playing the usual games lawyers play. What a lucky coincidence for them that their urgent appeal was accidentally released....(rolling eyes)
JMO

 

[WingsOverTX]

I don't want to derail the thread OT but another case on WS had similar issues & the defendant ended up as an escapee when once again transferred from prison to jail. It's not included in this article, but White's lawyers also opined about the hardships for both them & their client/his rights when he was in the prison awaiting trial on other charges at the county level.

I'm willing to bet this kind of "negotiation" is frequently in play around the country; we just rarely hear about it. The White case was my 1st time to learn about inmate restrictions in prisons that can impact the attorney-client relationship.

Escaped inmate went back and forth between Lauderdale County Jail and state prison

A nationwide search continues for escaped Lauderdale County inmate Casey White, who has a lengthy criminal history and extended stays at several correctional facilities throughout the state.

whnt.com

JMO & IRRC

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

I don't want to derail the thread OT but another case on WS had similar issues & the defendant ended up as an escapee when once again transferred from prison to jail. It's not included in this article, but White's lawyers also opined about the hardships for both them & their client/his rights when he was in the prison awaiting trial on other charges at the county level.

I'm willing to bet this kind of "negotiation" is frequently in play around the country; we just rarely hear about it. The White case was my 1st time to learn about inmate restrictions in prisons that can impact the attorney-client relationship.

Escaped inmate went back and forth between Lauderdale County Jail and state prison

A nationwide search continues for escaped Lauderdale County inmate Casey White, who has a lengthy criminal history and extended stays at several correctional facilities throughout the state.

whnt.com

H & IRRC

He was in a prison serving a sentence, not a detainee for a trial. He was taken to court in 2020 for arraignment on a murder, , then taken to court for the murder trial in 2022. Trial was continued and he escaped. MOO, nothing to compare to RA's situation. There will always be a risk transporting prisoners to and from court and in and out of jails and prisons.

The attorneys wanted a mental health exam, so he could go to an evaluation, it was continued then cancelled due to covid.

 

[WingsOverTX]

He was in a prison serving a sentence, not a detainee for a trial. He was taken to court in 2020 for arraignment on a murder, , then taken to court for the murder trial in 2022. Trial was continued and he escaped. MOO, nothing to compare to RA's situation. There will always be a risk transporting prisoners to and from court and in and out of jails and prisons.

The attorneys wanted a mental health exam, so he could go to an evaluation, it was continued then cancelled due to covid.

I think there are some parallels but yes, the cases are different in fact pattern.