IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #163

[girlhasnoname]

I think LE is shockingly lucky RA still had the car six years later when they finally identified him. The chances of finding real forensic evidence is diminished greatly. Yes, he could have washed it thoroughly knowing LE was looking for it. But someone would have seen that. How many cases have we heard of where someone testifies they saw the defendant washing their car like never before after a crime. Plus how many times has it been washed in six years.
Maybe someone early on being made aware of a suspicious car might have remembered it well enough to say what kind it was or add to LE’s information about it. Sure RA could have sold it. LE could have monitored car sales and identified someone getting rid of those kind of cars.
My point is releasing information like this forces the killer to do something that someone notices instead of hiding in plain sight.
There was nothing to lose from releasing that information early In my opinion.
Nothing about the actual crime scene should have been released.


Edit: typo

I see your point, but no matter how many times RA might have washed that car, DNA can still be retrieved after many years in the lining of a door panel, crevice of the console, etc.

He obviously was covered so that would be a lot of DNA to make sure that one teeny tiny amount hidden somewhere, anywhere wouldn't be found.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

What if we consider, for a moment, that NMcL might have had a legitimate reason for wanting the PCA sealed? IMO, the car at the CPS lot has always (until RA's arrest) been sidelined on here as insignificant, because we never heard anything about it after the 2019 PC. I feel like even then LE was handling that information carefully, and it still makes me wonder if the vehicle information was part of NMcL's reasoning for wanting the PCA sealed to begin with. To us, on the outside, it seems like information that can be public without hurting the case, but we don't actually know that. Just like the vehicle at the CPS lot became insignificant because we didn't hear any more about it, so to has NMcL saying there might be others involved. But if there is another or more involved, on any level, perhaps them knowing about the vehicle being seen might let them know that those same witnesses might have seen other things not included in the PCA (like another car parked somewhere else). I mean, I'm just taking a random guess because I don't know enough to say, either way.

So while I'm also frustrated with the lack of information released, I do feel like somewhere in the depths of this "complex" investigation, there could be reasons for LE's actions, beyond simply covering for their ineptitude. Of course, mistakes were likely made by all parties, but everyone involved, from LE to the legal teams, are only involved now because some jerk decided to go out and end two innocent lives that day. I'm still suspecting there is a lot more to this story.

I was thinking that perhaps the vehicle being described as looking like a PT Cruiser might have something to do with LE not providing any detail at the April 2019 PC. That vehicle is very particular in it's design, ir's look. Maybe LE expended a lot of time, effort and cost in looking for a PT and investigating people with no luck. So they decided not to mention the make, model or color in the hopes someone would come forward and know the color right but tell them a different make and model. That way if the color matched the original witness they could justify the work and cost of another wide search and investigations on more motor vehicle owners. Just some thoughts.

 

[sunshineray]

So prior to 2019, the suspect was a man with facial hair, in his 40s or 50s, with shorter hair and a hat. No vehicle was mentioned to the public. Then, in April 2019, we have the investigation going in a new direction. Suddenly the vehicle is important, and the suspect is younger and looks very different than the first sketch. DC says based on new information and intelligence, that sketch better represents the killer. In Oct. 2022, LE arrests RA, who IMOO appears to fit well to the original description and sketch (except for the long-standing "reddish-brown" hair bit). Afterwards, in response to a question about the YBG sketch, DC says he doesn't regret that strategy. The strategy to put forth a suspect description that was further from reality than the first one? I understand that investigations change and grow with time and new information, but this one seems more like a circle. I'm curious what happened to bring about the new direction, if any of it is still pertinent, or if it literally was just a "strategy."


From the PC:

During the course of this investigation, we have concluded the first sketch released will become secondary, as of today. The result of the new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe the sketch, which you will see shortly, IS the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls.

We believe this person is currently between the age range of 18 and 40, but might appear younger than his true age.

Directly to the Killer, who may be in this room: We believe you were hiding in plain sight. For more than 2 years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy. But we have.

DELPHI PRESS CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT (2019) - CrimeLights

Sounds like maybe there was another sketchy guy that was seen...at some point and at some time. We know that CE was probably cleared as BG in January 2019. He, to my eyes, looks remarkably like the first released sketch. Maybe that was the turning point with the starting to look more at the earlier and younger sketch? It still makes me nuts that ISP Carter later said it was a combination of the two sketches. And that head of hair on the younger BG is a stark contradiction to RA's appearance and description by that young girl who said his head was covered. Maybe the person who saw young BG actually did see an accomplice?

 

[WingsOverTX]

Because RA was publicly unknown up until his arrest, I‘d guess LE wanted to wait a few days before releasing the PCA to allow for any tips coming to be unrelated to the released information in order to protect the integrity of the investigation.

The public “wants to know” stuff mainly to quell curiosity, while the role of LE is withholding evidence to ensure a successful prosecution isn’t jeopardized.

I recall a local murder case where the accused had told someone details about a murder which aligned with the actual COD. However the COD had also been leaked to SM so the defence argued the defendant had no direct involvement but was only repeating info from SM. So for example, what if RA had shared theories with buddies or coworkers about the Delphi case at any time in the past, then what he said would become significant only after the announcement of his arrest but before the public learned what LE knew about his potential involvement.

RBBM
I do not agree that the public wanting to "know stuff" is inconsequential "just to quell curiosity".

LE isn't just "withholding" small details - gag orders shield the entire process of justice from those paying for it, the citizens.

This case, like many other serious criminal cases involving murder discussed here on WS, suffers from overreach - taking away the public's fundamental constitutional rights almost COMPLETELY in favor of protecting a defendants rights (to a degree that what goes on in closed proceedings is unknown - could be following the law or not - we will never know).

Gag orders should be rare & limited. Instead they are common & unlimited. In FL, gag orders are rare & small in scope. Are defendants there being railroaded by the system? No. The proper presumption of the public's right to know is just given the WEIGHT that PRESUMPTION requires. There is a time & place for gag orders but it's not every time & every place!

Accountability dies in darkness. And public accountability is critical in the administration of justice.
MOO

 

[sunshineray]

RBBM
I do not agree that the public wanting to "know stuff" is inconsequential "just to quell curiosity".

LE isn't just "withholding" small details - gag orders shield the entire process of justice from those paying for it, the citizens.

This case, like many other serious criminal cases involving murder discussed here on WS, suffers from overreach - taking away the public's fundamental constitutional rights almost COMPLETELY in favor of protecting a defendants rights (to a degree that what goes on in closed proceedings is unknown - could be following the law or not - we will never know).

Gag orders should be rare & limited. Instead they are common & unlimited. In FL, gag orders are rare & small in scope. Are defendants there being railroaded by the system? No. The proper presumption of the public's right to know is just given the WEIGHT that PRESUMPTION requires. There is a time & place for gag orders but it's not every time & every place!

Accountability dies in darkness. And public accountability is critical in the administration of justice.
MOO

To me the fact that KAK is involved with catfishing one of the victims and is said to not only communicated with her but had stated to the victim's friend (according to that witness) that his catfish persona had made plans to meet up with that victim on the day she was murdered, is a WHOLE can of worms for LE. That, the prosecutor saying others may be involved and a huge child crimes investigation going on simultaneously, any secrecy about this case in the preliminary stages after an arrest is totally acceptable to this member of the public. Protecting the public, especially the helpless, is also all part of the processes we pay for as taxpayers. That at this juncture, IMO, trumps the public's need to know details of the arrest or evidence. That will all come soon enough.
AJMO

 

[Rural_PC]

LE has a lot of ‘splaining to do for sure.

Agreed, but it seems like that may be one of the hardest things for law enforcement.

 

[LaurelTedytamer]

What is important in my view ?
1. Justice for Abby and Libby - what we all want.
2. A trial that is conducted fairly and justly with no doubt - if they need to keep things secret so be so to the trial.
3.The girls' relatives get answers and justice and are hopefully protected from whatever media circus this case gets - they have been through hell already.

This case is so heartbreaking and is one of those cases that is full of mystery and publicity. I know most of us that read this website are curious personalities. We want answers, we want to know what happened, that the mystery is solved. We just have to have faith in the legal system and let it proceed. Hopefully eventually we will have answers and justice.

I really have no idea how the Court system works in Indiana. Do we have a court date yet? Will journalists be allowed to released details of what happens in Court or will some things be kept secret in the case? Will it be a jury trial?

I hope they have the evidence and there is no doubt, justice for the girls and their families.

Laurel

 

[FrostedGlass]

What intrigues me is why LE decided to finally release the vehicle information at the same time as changing directions and switching to the YBG sketch. Are the two related?

I keep going back to GH's 2021 phone interview with a gentleman who said he saw an older model car parked along the side of the road, about halfway between the CPS lot and the curve in the road, from 8:45 am to at least 2:15 (it was still there when the gentleman left the area). He says his friend thought he saw the same vehicle parked on the other side of Freedom Bridge at 3:30. It's easy to think he might have his days mixed up, but he had paperwork from his job to back up the times, he reported it to police, and he knew about the camera on the HH having footage of several vehicles from that day. He said they did not capture the one he saw, which must have turned around and went the north way out (which makes sense if they ended up parked on the other side of Freedom Bridge soon after). So in 2021, he was telling GH that LE knew about a vehicle that was parked suspiciously at the CPS lot, but they didn't even know what color it was. That all matches what we later read in the PCA, so that makes this man's story more legitimate, imo. I'm very curious about this other car. Just because it wasn't mentioned in the PCA doesn't mean it wasn't there, or seen by witnesses.

Have you ever put together a timeline for when you think LE knew the info in the PCA?

 

[M. Kay]

Have you ever put together a timeline for when you think LE knew the info in the PCA?

This is the kind of reasoned inquiry that brings me back to WS. Thank you FrostedGlass. Have you conceptualized in this way?

 

[FrostedGlass]

This is the kind of reasoned inquiry that brings me back to WS. Thank you FrostedGlass. Have you conceptualized in this way?

Thank you. I've tried but I have little to show for it.

In RA's PCA, the conservation officer noted: "Potential follow up information: Who were the 3 girls walking in the area of Freedom Bridge?" That makes me think he interviewed RA very early in the case OR the co was out of the loop.

I think Ives subpoenaed the cell records sometime in Oct. 2017. I snagged this case before it was sealed Case Number 08C01-1710-MC-000198. There were several others but when I went back to make records of them, they were already gone, too. I was new to court records; I had no idea that they could make them disappear from public view. I went back and searched all the Ives' filings from the time of the murders through Oct, -twice- thinking I made a mistake. lol..
If this is the case, I wonder what took him so long.

 

[FrostedGlass]

New filing:

04/28/2023

Correspondence to/from Court Filed Westville Correctional Inmate letter File Stamp: 04/28/2023

 

[iamnotagolem]

Thank you. I've tried but I have little to show for it.

In RA's PCA, the conservation officer noted: "Potential follow up information: Who were the 3 girls walking in the area of Freedom Bridge?" That makes me think he interviewed RA very early in the case OR the co was out of the loop.

I think Ives subpoenaed the cell records sometime in Oct. 2017. I snagged this case before it was sealed Case Number 08C01-1710-MC-000198. There were several others but when I went back to make records of them, they were already gone, too. I was new to court records; I had no idea that they could make them disappear from public view. I went back and searched all the Ives' filings from the time of the murders through Oct, -twice- thinking I made a mistake. lol..
If this is the case, I wonder what took him so long.

BBM, I totally agree with this, that's why I've thought that RA spoke to the CO before the girls bodies were found. That and once the girls bodies were found it was then a homicide investigation and not likely that other branches of LE would have still been involved.

 

[FrostedGlass]

New. Informative podcast with attorney Shay Hughes.

The Delphi Murders: Emergency Motion, Subpoenas, and More with the Hoosier Public Defender

The Murder Sheet interviewed a public defender in Indiana about the developments in the case against Richard Allen. We spoke about the emergency motion, a few sealed subpoenas, and the air of secrecy around the case. Follow the Hoosier Public Defender on Twitter at @publicdefender_ or here...

art19.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

BBM, I totally agree with this, that's why I've thought that RA spoke to the CO before the girls bodies were found. That and once the girls bodies were found it was then a homicide investigation and not likely that other branches of LE would have still been involved.

This is an Ives quote from March 14, 2017:

Each day, the small town of almost 3,000 people is flooded with police officers from across Indiana and federal agents from across the country, all searching for the clue that will lead to the girls’ killer.

“With the data base that they have that was provided by the FBI, if a person has been checked on before, it’s easy to tell they’ve been checked on before,” said the prosecutor. “The crime is so serious that you’re following leads you might not otherwise follow before. There’s no obvious suspect as there often is.

“They go out and check on things, they report back, sometimes people are called in for statements, sometimes other avenues of investigation are taken up with regard to particular people.

“On any particular day there are twenty FBI agents and 25 or 30 officers,” observed Ives. “On some days it’s probably as many as 200 people working.

Prosecutor says cops likely have met Delphi killer or received crucial tip due to scope of probe

DELPHI, Ind. — Carroll County Prosecutor Robert Ives told FOX59 the law of averages favors that of the thousands of tips that have poured in and the hundreds of doors police and FBI agents ha…

fox59.com

 

[M. Kay]

I'm still thinking about what Robert Ives said in televised interview on local Fox news in 2021. He was former Carroll County prosecutor who visited the murder scene (as FBI?) happening to be in the area. His first thought was that it was a local who murdered because of the location; he and many others thought it would be solved in days because of evidence. He added there was no reason to think another was involved and was certain that BG was the one who murdered. I'd like to hear his equally clear and candid comment on why it took over five years to arrest Robert Allen.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I'm still thinking about what Robert Ives said in televised interview on local Fox news in 2021. He was former Carroll County prosecutor who visited the murder scene (as FBI?) happening to be in the area. His first thought was that it was a local who murdered because of the location; he and many others thought it would be solved in days because of evidence. He added there was no reason to think another was involved and was certain that BG was the one who murdered. I'd like to hear his equally clear and candid comment on why it took over five years to arrest Robert Allen.

He had the good instinct to put out a 5 mile radius for the cell data; too bad he didn't put up a 2 mile radius for door knocking. Even if LE had done casual drive throughs of the neighborhoods, they would have had a good idea of what vehicles were around.

Were the witness descriptions so off that LE never saw RA as being BG?

 

[Niner]

Delphi murders: Indiana Supreme Court lifts ban that may drastically impact Richard Allen's trial

A twist in Delphi Snapchat murder case as judge lifts a major ban that may drastically affect suspect Richard Allen's trial and other cases

meaww.com

April 27, 2023

DELPHI, INDIANA: The Indiana Supreme Court has significantly changed its previous courtroom camera policy, which could allow the public to see inside Richard Allen's murder trial. Judges will now be able to decide whether cameras are allowed in their courtrooms starting from Monday, May 1.

Richard Allen's trial could be the first in Indiana to be shown worldwide owing to the lifting of the close-range camera ban. This case has generated a ton of media coverage and is regarded as Indiana's most high-profile trial in a decade, according to WRTV. Now that Indiana has joined the other 48 states that permit cameras in courtrooms, individuals may have the option to watch the trial themselves. Chief Justice Loretta H Rush of the Indiana Supreme Court believes that the general public has a right to witness how the state's judicial system functions.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Delphi murders: Indiana Supreme Court lifts ban that may drastically impact Richard Allen's trial

A twist in Delphi Snapchat murder case as judge lifts a major ban that may drastically affect suspect Richard Allen's trial and other cases

meaww.com

April 27, 2023

DELPHI, INDIANA: The Indiana Supreme Court has significantly changed its previous courtroom camera policy, which could allow the public to see inside Richard Allen's murder trial. Judges will now be able to decide whether cameras are allowed in their courtrooms starting from Monday, May 1.

Richard Allen's trial could be the first in Indiana to be shown worldwide owing to the lifting of the close-range camera ban. This case has generated a ton of media coverage and is regarded as Indiana's most high-profile trial in a decade, according to WRTV. Now that Indiana has joined the other 48 states that permit cameras in courtrooms, individuals may have the option to watch the trial themselves. Chief Justice Loretta H Rush of the Indiana Supreme Court believes that the general public has a right to witness how the state's judicial system functions.

UGH, a news source in India is calling it the "Snap Chat" murders and is showing pictures of the Evansdale murder victims from 2012!

 

[FromGermany1]

This is an Ives quote from March 14, 2017:

Each day, the small town of almost 3,000 people is flooded with police officers from across Indiana and federal agents from across the country, all searching for the clue that will lead to the girls’ killer.

“With the data base that they have that was provided by the FBI, if a person has been checked on before, it’s easy to tell they’ve been checked on before,” said the prosecutor. “The crime is so serious that you’re following leads you might not otherwise follow before. There’s no obvious suspect as there often is.

“They go out and check on things, they report back, sometimes people are called in for statements, sometimes other avenues of investigation are taken up with regard to particular people.

“On any particular day there are twenty FBI agents and 25 or 30 officers,” observed Ives. “On some days it’s probably as many as 200 people working.

Prosecutor says cops likely have met Delphi killer or received crucial tip due to scope of probe

DELPHI, Ind. — Carroll County Prosecutor Robert Ives told FOX59 the law of averages favors that of the thousands of tips that have poured in and the hundreds of doors police and FBI agents ha…

fox59.com

Did the new police station make any sense meanwhile? Once we thought, it might be a new place, where suspects could have brought to without always being seen in town and where space for a large investigation (officers, folders) would be available.

 

[TL4S]

It seems so easy to break down the Delphi murders as a random, opportunistic crime, committed by a lone predator. It's the logical solution.

A lone predator who has lived in the area for decades, yet we have never seen another crime like this, in the area, during any of that time. A random, opportunistic crime which led to a complex, fascinating investigation, needing a larger space for investigators, with LE and the prosecutor wanting to hold back most information from the public. A crime scene that was described as "odd" with "signatures." One of the victims is linked to a known catfisher and the FBI thinks this kind of criminal would take photos or otherwise memorialize the crime. LE and the prosecutor wants everything sealed, above and beyond what is normal, and claims they have "good reason to believe" others are involved.

But it all means nothing because a 44-year-old man suddenly brought some long-standing fantasy to fruition because in all the times he'd been to the trails hunting he'd never had an opportunity before. He always parked concealed-like, a mile from the planned CS, carrying weapons, and decided to take two victims on his first, middle-aged go-around at murder. The prosecutor was just covering his bases when he claimed they believe others were involved, JH was just blowing smoke when he wrote an affidavit to the judge on why they should keep the PCA sealed, and DC was just being dramatic about the tentacles.

In the end, maybe RA really did simply see an opportunity and take it, and it just took LE that long, with lots of avenues to investigate, to find him. Or, maybe there is more to what happened than any of us knows.