IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

[Bergmann]

@Bergmann I've snipped a part of your post. That's true about shallow crossings but we don't know if they crossed at the point shown in re-enactments. Maybe they crossed more to the east, where the water was deeper, where the KK picture shows the detective on the bank, looking down.

No, we don't know, and we also don't have a definitive proposition from P where they believe they crossed.

I'm interested in the whole 2.13pm onwards for the next 22 hrs before the girls were found. Lots happened and a lot of that is as yet unclear, including confirmed (estimate) of time of death and details from the post mortem exams etc. That's before we get to recovered (and not recovered lol) evidence like the girl's phones etc, cell records of all the people related to and involved in this period (including suspects).

 

[MistyWaters]

In her Court TV comment about it, she said that one speculation (after referring to her sources) was it even could have come from LE. My question is whether the extraction marks were compared to the applicable guns of any LE who were on the scene that day.

The sticking point for me in terms of RA is the three juvenile witnesses who saw RA walking towards the bridge around 1:30. There were actually four girls, but RA said he saw three. That could be a simple mistake, but what I'd really like to know is if there was a group of three females near FB closer to noon, when RA claims he got there.

I just look at these as loose ends that need to be tied up. But only to satisfy my own mind, not knowing all the evidence, of course. Jmo.

If RA claims he got to the bridge at noon, the question is why did he bother to seek out the CO to say he didn’t see the girls, the reason for the interview. Of course he didn’t see them, they hadn’t been dropped off yet. Even back then it was widely reported they got there after 1pm.

For that reason it’s going to be difficult for him to back out of the 1:30 to 3:30pm timeframe, the only time he could’ve possibly seen the girls. I don’t think the CO would‘ve thought it worth speaking with him otherwise. JMO

 

[Megnut]

It's remarkable really that he got seen at all.

3/4 girls
The lady who turned around
The lady who saw him walking along the road
A and L

He only admitted to seeing the 3 girls. Which when triangulated with the turning-around lady's recollection locks RA near or on the bridge exactly when his defense attorney would like us to believe he was driving away, windows rolled down, singing "Everything Happened After I Left".

Instead he puts himself on the bridge and lined up to encounter A and L.

I think the three girls is why he came forward. Knew he'd been made... Maybe he even said 3 not 4 to be vague purposefully... just anything but 2.

But essentially sounds like this, "I was there, didn't see A and L, didn't see anything out of the ordinary. You can go ahead and check me off."

And somehow, crazily, it worked.

JMO

 

[Bergmann]

the question is why did he bother to seek out the CO to say he didn’t see the girls

I'm not sure the context for this discussion has been clarified yet has it? I seem to recall it has been confirmed that it took place outside the grocery store but whether it was deliberate/ scheduled or opportune I've not seen much to objectively clarify.

I'm aware but without access to a source at my fingertips, that right from the outset locals were being encouraged to come forward with any information that might be helpful, especially to come forward if they were on the trails that day. So was it cynical or happenstance - I'm not sure I could conclude either tbh.

 

[mrjitty]

IMO the timeline will be a huge issue for P, way more than the defense. The P is the one who has to prove RA was there beyond a reasonable doubt…JMO all I personally have right now are doubts re: the timeline. The D is even claiming Liggett misrepresented eyewitness statements, from my understanding. Ideally, the P can address the plentiful issues brought up in the D memo.

Per the defense memo, p. 105-116, the defense discusses numerous potential issues. 1 being that RA said he was on the trail 12-1:30pm, that he *left* around 1:30pm.

RSBM

So as I have posted a few times now, we know definitively that RA was on the trails from approximately 1.30 because he saw the 3 girls and they saw him and digital evidence means it was not earlier than 1.30

So unless there were somehow different 3 girls that he saw at midday that no one knows about, the defence version is shot down in the first 5 seconds.

 

[Megnut]

RSBM

So as I have posted a few times now, we know definitively that RA was on the trails from approximately 1.30 because he saw the 3 girls and they saw him and digital evidence means it was not earlier than 1.30

So unless there were somehow a different 3 girls that he saw at midday that no one knows about, the defence version is shot down in the first 5 seconds.

Exactly.

He'd have served his future self better by saying he didn't see anyone, didn't notice anyone. Then blame the fish or phone for his inattention to detail later.

As you say, his defense is shot down in the first 5 seconds.

Jmo

 

[iamnotagolem]

I'll admit, I really thought the guards wearing patches was just made up, I can't believe that part was true. The more we learn about this case, the less convinced I am that RA will ever be brought to justice.

 

[mrjitty]

I'll admit, I really thought the guards wearing patches was just made up, I can't believe that part was true. The more we learn about this case, the less convinced I am that RA will ever be brought to justice.

Yeah it's another example of why, in the US, a killer must never talk to police.

First he gave an incriminating version to the CO, then he gave another incriminating interview where he confirmed the worst aspects of his CO interview, but lied about the time.

Now the defence would want to try to thread the eye of the needle by reverse engineering a time between 1.30-3.30 that magically works, only he said he wasn't there at any of those times.

Doh!

 

[mrjitty]

I'll admit, I really thought the guards wearing patches was just made up, I can't believe that part was true. The more we learn about this case, the less convinced I am that RA will ever be brought to justice.

Of course it was true - they reverse engineered this fan fiction around small details

 

[schooling]

To add, from the NIJ:
(Wrongful Convictions and DNA Exonerations: Understanding the Role of Forensic Science)

“According to the Innocence Project, a national litigation and public policy organization dedicated to exonerating wrongfully convicted individuals, 342 people have been exonerated as a result of DNA analysis as of July 31, 2016. The Innocence Project lists six “contributing causes” for wrongful convictions:

• Eyewitness misidentification
• False confessions or admissions
• Government misconduct
• Inadequate defense
• Informants (e.g., jailhouse snitches)
• Unvalidated or improper forensic science.

After identifying a set of erroneous convictions and near misses and analyzing the cases using bivariate and logistic regression techniques, Gould and his colleagues identified 10 “factors” (not causes) that led to a wrongful conviction of an innocent defendant instead of a dismissal or acquittal:

• Younger defendant.
• Criminal history.
• Weak prosecution case.
• Prosecution withheld evidence.
• Lying by a non-eyewitness.
• Unintentional witness misidentification.
• Misinterpreting forensic evidence at trial.
• Weak defense.
• Defendant offered a family witness.
• States with a “punitive” culture.

I haven't seen a case yet that the above quoted doesn't apply. I could probably make a case for OJ with it....

WIth that being said...a lot the evidence put forward in defense of RA heavily relies on eye witness testimony that doesn't directly support the prosecutions case. Inevitably when someone counters with other eye witness testimony that does directly support the prosecution's case... all of the sudden it's highlighted as a contributing factor in wrongful convictions. As if the former is automatically more reliable than the latter because it fits an alternative narrative.

i think ultimately it's up to the jury to determine how reliable a eye witness's testimony is. And it's up to prosecutors not to bring cases that solely rely on it. As they are much more susceptible to being successfully challenged. I do not think that this is one of those cases. Mainly because RA is the prosecutions star eye witness. If not on the stand (which is well within his right) then by his admissions to law enforcement. He admitted to being there at that time and in the clothes of Bridge Guy. He even corroborates the eye witness testimony of the 3 girls.

Also, IMO the 'false confessions or admissions' listed as 1 of 6 contributing factors is not of the 'i confessed to my wife multiple times in prison phone calls' variety. It's coercion.

 

[CGBSpender]

The D is painting a picture of the patch wearing COs as intimidating RA. However, the reverse could be possible too...if someone thought a particular inmate followed a certain religion...then perhaps having COs around that appeared to share similar beliefs might induce said inmate to trust and/or be or more likely to open up to the COs. It's not unusual for killers (once caught) to want to talk and/or brag about their crimes to someone...since they haven't been able to...COs make much more credible witnesses than fellow inmates...if a criminal is going to talk to someone, it is better for LE if it is a CO or something said on a recorded message or telephone line (as opposed to a fellow inmate whose credibility can be easily attacked).

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Since RA is the only one who can attest to the timeframe he was there, I can see where it might benefit the accusers if he's kept in such a state that he can't take the stand. MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Also, IMO the 'false confessions or admissions' listed as 1 of 6 contributing factors is not of the 'i confessed to my wife multiple times in prison phone calls' variety. It's coercion.

RSBM

Right. This is not the type of confession coerced in an interrogation via improper means

Nor is it the kind said in confidence to a snitch of dubious credibility

This is on tape, made freely, in a conversation with his wife!

It is certainly underplayed how devastaing that is for the defence. Hence the frankly absurd ideas about Odinist prison guards who are somehow in on the murder and want to fit him up

lol

 

[zh0r4]

I'll admit, I really thought the guards wearing patches was just made up, I can't believe that part was true. The more we learn about this case, the less convinced I am that RA will ever be brought to justice.

I felt the exact same way. I thought-so the guards wear these patches….the D notices but conveniently when they return to get proof of this they aren’t wearing them anymore?…Yea ok. I didn’t believe it at all. Then the warden and Sgt Jones say they actually can wear patches/do wear patches?? And they are Norse symbolism? I never saw that coming, it’s bizarre.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I'll admit, I really thought the guards wearing patches was just made up, I can't believe that part was true. The more we learn about this case, the less convinced I am that RA will ever be brought to justice.

I'm with you on the guard patches, not too proud to admit it. LE, ISP and FBI are not Westerville though.

I still have belief that there is solid evidence against RA and he will go to trial and be found guilty.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

I felt the exact same way. I thought-so the guards wear these patches….the D notices but conveniently when they return to get proof of this they aren’t wearing them anymore?…Yea ok. I didn’t believe it at all. Then the warden and Sgt Jones say they actually can wear patches/do wear patches?? And they are Norse symbolism? I never saw that coming, it’s bizarre.

I'm still stunned by the weird coincidences surrounding this case. One victim was likely being catfished, the other was dating the son of an Odinist. Both angles were clearly investigated by LE, so while people here on WS dismiss it like it's some kind of joke, the taskforce apparently did not. In fact, they spent 5 weeks on a river search based on KAK's (a known liar) word, and TC felt strongly about his line of investigation on men who happened to be involved with Odinism, even if he doesn't feel it was ritualistic. The FBI and Purdue professor (and Harvard professor) supposedly say it looks like someone with Norse beliefs, or it was meant to appear that way. Now we have the guards wearing patches based on Norse beliefs? Even if RA just snapped and went out on the trails to get his kicks killing someone, it still doesn't take away the oddness of these other circumstances, just at face value, in and of themselves. It's weird, IMO.

Judge D recused himself. The warden got in legal trouble. The P said they have good reason to believe others are involved, and the D wasn't lying about every single thing they wrote. TL omitted witness details from the affidavit. What to make of it all?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I was surprised Indiana allowed COs to wear patches of any kind. It seems very unprofessional. The worst part is it allowed the defense here an avenue to seemingly bolster their pagan cult fantasy.
In my opinion the patches mean nothing. The prosecution’s response and attached affidavits pretty much confirm that.

 

[TL4S]

I was surprised Indiana allowed COs to wear patches of any kind. It seems very unprofessional. The worst part is it allowed the defense here an avenue to seemingly bolster their pagan cult fantasy.
In my opinion the patches mean nothing. The prosecution’s response and attached affidavits pretty much confirm that.

I wonder if the policy on wearing patches will change after this case.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I wonder if the policy on wearing patches will change after this case.

Didn’t the warden at that prison nix the wearing of patches because of the defense motion. Hopefully, that will become statewide.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I wonder if the policy on wearing patches will change after this case.

Yes, all guards were ordered to remove any non related patches on Sept 22, 2023.