IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

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Pardon me if I don't believe the promises made by the defense, based on their past behavior and that of other, similar defense teams in similar murder trials. They'll keep pushing the envelope until the judge calls them out in court and verbally orders them to stop messing around or face sanctions.

I listened to the MS podcast while out walking today and remain shocked at how loosely this process is going. The judge should crack down on what's going out to the public, including MS. Everyone will get a chance to see the evidence at trial.

How the heck did a guy who was former LE get access to crime scene photos, let alone emailing them around. What the heck.

JMO
Thing is, there were others on social media earlier this year who claimed to have the crime scene photos.

Something is rotten in Delphi.

RA‘s right to a fair trial is in jeopardy.
And justice for Libby and Abby hangs in the balance.

jmo
 
Thing is, there were others on social media earlier this year who claimed to have the crime scene photos.

Something is rotten in Delphi.

RA‘s right to a fair trial is in jeopardy.
And justice for Libby and Abby hangs in the balance.

jmo

Would that pertain to the prior incident MS was referring to involving Baldwin or his office’s prior leak? About a Woodhouse guy from Delphi who was suing Carrol County jail who made a big thing about being inadvertently sent a listing of crime scene photos, although not the actual photos?

The point being made was there was an attempt to blend both leaks into one, assumably to protect the actions of this latest leaker referred to as “M” who was Baldwin’s friend and ex-associate.
 
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Would that pertain to the prior incident MS was referring to involving Baldwin or his office’s prior leak? About a Woodhouse guy from Delphi who was suing Carrol County jail who made a big thing about being inadvertently sent a listing of crime scene photos, although not the actual photos?
BH is one. GF, CT, RL also.
 
Do you think these claims were true? Problem is on SM the true identity of who’s making sensationalized claims can’t even be taken at face value.
I don’t know what to think, to be honest. It’s just so weird that some of their descriptions seem similar to the descriptions in the memorandum.
 
JMO:

FWIW, I don't think the Court removes the investigation's crime scene photos from allowed evidence simply b/c they were leaked. It's critical evidence and it would harm both Defense and Prosecution to block them as fact evidence.

RA has an entire Defense team; he has more than one counsel to lean on should Baldwin be dismissed.

Just another bump in the road to justice. :)
 
JMO:

FWIW, I don't think the Court removes the investigation's crime scene photos from allowed evidence simply b/c they were leaked. It's critical evidence and it would harm both Defense and Prosecution to block them as fact evidence.

RA has an entire Defense team; he has more than one counsel to lean on should Baldwin be dismissed.

Just another bump in the road to justice. :)

We probably need some WS attorneys to explain the process and possibilities. IANAL, but in either pre-trial or trial phases, the defense can make motions to have the leaked evidence thrown out and argue for a mistrial based on prejudicial evidence that was leaked. On the MS podcast from 3 days ago (the first of 2 so far they've made about this incident) they said they viewed all the leaked photos, there were a lot, all graphic of the crime scene. They said all were very prejudicial against RA, so this is bad.

At about 8:35 Greenlee begins explaining that “M” (the leaker) “is someone who used to work for Andrew Baldwin’s criminal defence team and I want to stress that that professional relationship ended between them amicably. I believe “M” wanted to pursue other opportunities. That’s my understanding and this happened years ago. (Cain) It’s not a disgruntled former employee. It’s not someone who was fired in the midst of the Delphi case and wanted revenge. This was a close personal friendship as well as a business relationship.…. goes on to explain the highly collaborative nature of Baldwin’s law office, generally a strength. Issues can arise out of that, to be blunt…..“

The information is from the latest episode of MS, released earlier today.


I'm listening to it again. Their explanation is so garbled, its difficult to sort out. I'm trying, but they keep losing me when they talk about making a list of items in your refrigerator, etc. Not relevant. I'll try to listen to the rest.

"Mark" sent the photos to MS podcast. "M" was someone who leaked from the defense team. He leaked it to R, who then shared it to "Mark" and some female. It's around the 11:00 minute mark. I stand corrected and retract my earlier statement that it came from LE. That said, it doesn't change my view of how bad this leak is to the case.

Considering "M" leaked the information to the MS podcast instead of calling LE is not good. JMO, it seems like this information was deliberately leaked by the defense team and done so in a way that would get the crime scene evidence out to the public. For some leakers, it seems to be a way to become popular on true crime social media and the defense team wanted to take advantage. JMO SMH

Can the state successfully prosecute RA after this? Is there any way for the Feds to take over? Are there any federal charges that can be brought in the event Indiana's case ends in mistrial or acquittal? Will the judge finally issue a wider gag order and enforce it sufficiently to protect the evidence that's left to present in this trial?
 
Thing is, there were others on social media earlier this year who claimed to have the crime scene photos.

Something is rotten in Delphi.

RA‘s right to a fair trial is in jeopardy.
And justice for Libby and Abby hangs in the balance.

jmo

If true, someone has been leaking. If ISP can conduct an investigation (hopefully with the help of the FBI and Homeland Security who can handle all the digital stuff, tracking social media, emails, calls, texts, etc) they can find the leakers and prosecute. I would hope any attorneys involved are disbarred. Can that happen in Indiana? IDK.
 
CourtTV says it was 7 photos that were leaked. Apologies if you all have discussed this previously. I usually stop following cases when they're in the pre-trial phase, so I haven't followed this one lately.


They refer to it as a "catastrophic leak".

This makes me worry more about Rex Heuermann's upcoming trial. His defense team seems very tricky, along with the attorneys who are representing his wife. The prosecutor has talked about evidence he thinks isn't important to the case that may later turn out to be important. The judge needs to issue a very broad and strict gag order in that case, too.
 
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IMO, they don't need to show them at all. Diagrams work well in most cases.
MOO i believe the victims deserve to add their testimony about the crime against them by their condition.
If I were a juror I think I'd also want to do a walk of the area focusing on the point of abduction and then journey along the P narrative of how they arrived at the crime scene etc.
Agree.
Although the crime of felony murder occurred on the bridge.
 
We probably need some WS attorneys to explain the process and possibilities. IANAL, but in either pre-trial or trial phases, the defense can make motions to have the leaked evidence thrown out and argue for a mistrial based on prejudicial evidence that was leaked. On the MS podcast from 3 days ago (the first of 2 so far they've made about this incident) they said they viewed all the leaked photos, there were a lot, all graphic of the crime scene. They said all were very prejudicial against RA, so this is bad.



The information is from the latest episode of MS, released earlier today.


I'm listening to it again. Their explanation is so garbled, its difficult to sort out. I'm trying, but they keep losing me when they talk about making a list of items in your refrigerator, etc. Not relevant. I'll try to listen to the rest.

"Mark" sent the photos to MS podcast. "M" was someone who leaked from the defense team. He leaked it to R, who then shared it to "Mark" and some female. It's around the 11:00 minute mark. I stand corrected and retract my earlier statement that it came from LE. That said, it doesn't change my view of how bad this leak is to the case.

Considering "M" leaked the information to the MS podcast instead of calling LE is not good. JMO, it seems like this information was deliberately leaked by the defense team and done so in a way that would get the crime scene evidence out to the public. For some leakers, it seems to be a way to become popular on true crime social media and the defense team wanted to take advantage. JMO SMH

Can the state successfully prosecute RA after this? Is there any way for the Feds to take over? Are there any federal charges that can be brought in the event Indiana's case ends in mistrial or acquittal? Will the judge finally issue a wider gag order and enforce it sufficiently to protect the evidence that's left to present in this trial?

1st podcast:
My understanding: MS said their mole (Mark) thought the photos were good for the defense - in that - the crime scene photos support the defense theory presented in recent Defense Memo (and the granular descriptions of the crime scene therein).

IMO, this is the 3rd MS podcast ... in the 2nd - major corrective editing to the original that I heard and more clarity on the suicide.

The Leak is all crime scene. These are not prejudicial facts. They're investigative facts on the ground about the crime relative to the case that is the subject of the trial.

If it was leaked ... that RA was disciplined and suspended for watching girls in the locker room in High School through a peephole ... THAT's not relevant to the case ... but could be prejudicial.

The case moves forward. JMHO.
 
CourtTV says it was 7 photos that were leaked. Apologies if you all have discussed this previously. I usually stop following cases when they're in the pre-trial phase, so I haven't followed this one lately.


They refer to it as a "catastrophic leak".

This makes me worry more about Rex Heuermann's upcoming trial. His defense team seems very tricky, along with the attorneys who are representing his wife. The prosecutor has talked about evidence he thinks isn't important to the case that may later turn out to be important. The judge needs to issue a very broad and strict gag order in that case, too.

I just watched the court tv link and want to thank you for linking it. I think it should relieve folks.

(Although, I heard nothing about a catastrophic leak.)

I heard Vinny talk to the MS duo with their country bumpkin tap shoes and their dire prediction for the end of Baldwin's career, in fact, both attorney's could be removed by the Judge, etc...

... and then (thank goodness) Vinny brought in "the experts" ... as he does.

So then, we hear 2 trial attnys say there expect sanctions at most. One (attitude-filled) attorney laughed at the idea Baldwin being held accountable for his rogue former employee's bad choices ... to the point of being removed from the case.

JMO, and ... I'm with the expert dude w/ the 'tude ... on this question.

We'll see a hand slap. IF that. MOO
 
We probably need some WS attorneys to explain the process and possibilities. IANAL, but in either pre-trial or trial phases, the defense can make motions to have the leaked evidence thrown out and argue for a mistrial based on prejudicial evidence that was leaked. On the MS podcast from 3 days ago (the first of 2 so far they've made about this incident) they said they viewed all the leaked photos, there were a lot, all graphic of the crime scene. They said all were very prejudicial against RA, so this is bad.



The information is from the latest episode of MS, released earlier today.


I'm listening to it again. Their explanation is so garbled, its difficult to sort out. I'm trying, but they keep losing me when they talk about making a list of items in your refrigerator, etc. Not relevant. I'll try to listen to the rest.

"Mark" sent the photos to MS podcast. "M" was someone who leaked from the defense team. He leaked it to R, who then shared it to "Mark" and some female. It's around the 11:00 minute mark. I stand corrected and retract my earlier statement that it came from LE. That said, it doesn't change my view of how bad this leak is to the case.

Considering "M" leaked the information to the MS podcast instead of calling LE is not good. JMO, it seems like this information was deliberately leaked by the defense team and done so in a way that would get the crime scene evidence out to the public. For some leakers, it seems to be a way to become popular on true crime social media and the defense team wanted to take advantage. JMO SMH

Can the state successfully prosecute RA after this? Is there any way for the Feds to take over? Are there any federal charges that can be brought in the event Indiana's case ends in mistrial or acquittal? Will the judge finally issue a wider gag order and enforce it sufficiently to protect the evidence that's left to present in this trial?
IMO, the defense definitely cannot successfully argue that crime scene photos should be thrown out just because they were leaked (especially since their office seems to be the source of the leak). I also can't imagine why they'd want the photos thrown out since their current theory of the case seems to depend on the jury seeing those photos and agreeing with their interpretation of how the sticks were placed, what the marking on the tree meant, etc.

Relevant evidence like crime scene photos can be excluded at trial if the judge thinks their probative value is substantially outweighed by the danger that they will unfairly prejudice the jury against the defendant. Maybe that's what MS were talking about? I didn't listen to the episode. But that has nothing to with leaks, so I don't know why they'd bring it up in this context.
 
I don’t know what to think, to be honest. It’s just so weird that some of their descriptions seem similar to the descriptions in the memorandum.

That certainly is intriguing. I do wonder if what you noticed may well have been connected to the accidental leaked listing of the crime scene photos that occurred earlier, especially if the listing also contained brief descriptions of each of the photos.

If so, that may be why you noticed similarity to the descriptions in the recent memorandum since it was all defence related. And also the crime scene photo similarities could be why “R” anticipated it could be presumed by others to connect back to that earlier leaking episode in order to protect the true identity of “M”. In essence Woodhouse was being set up as the fallguy and Baldwin had already apologized to the Judge for the leak. All my speculation.
 
Is it possible the leak came through consultation out of state, where gag orders might not apply?

The gag order restricts certain parties from publicly discussing aspects of the case including the leak.

But the leak of crime scene photos is not an example of violation of a gag order, although it’s the reason why none of the directly related parties can comment on it. I’m not sure if that’s why you are implying by your post, if it’s not I apologize for misunderstanding. The leak is considered a very serious violation of confidentiality which defence attorneys must otherwise adhere to as stipulated by the Court, consultation or not wherever it occurred, seven (?) crime scene photos were unlawfully leaked.

JMO
 
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The gag order restricts certain parties from publicly discussing aspects of the case including the leak.

But the leak of crime scene photos is not an example of violation of a gag order, although it’s the reason why none of the directly related parties can comment on it. I’m not sure if that’s why you are implying by your post, if it’s not I apologize for misunderstanding. The leak is considered a very serious violation of confidentiality which defence attorneys must otherwise adhere to as stipulated by the Court, consultation or not wherever it occurred, seven (?) crime scene photos were unlawfully leaked.

JMO

If leak of the crime scene photos isn't a violation of the gag order, it must be an incredibly weak one. We should probably get some feedback from WS attorneys on that. I don't think I've ever followed a case with a gag order where it was ok to release crime scene photos prior to the trial, at least not in modern times. More recent cases (Rhoden Massacre, Murdaugh murders) did not allow photos of the crime scene and victims to be released prior to trial. Certainly not photos of young girls, murdered, one nude, <modsnip: Not supported by any MSM or LE report>and posed post-mortem by the killer.


IMO, the defense definitely cannot successfully argue that crime scene photos should be thrown out just because they were leaked (especially since their office seems to be the source of the leak).
They can be thrown out if they were released to the public prior to the trial, because they are prejudicial against the defendant.

As for CourtTV's reference to the leaked photos as "catastrophic", its in the lede of the article

DELPHI, Ind. (Court TV) — A catastrophic leak of crime scene photos could impede the upcoming trial of a man accused of murdering two Indiana teens.


As for the defense team being responsible for the leak, the photos came from their office.

After investigating, Cain and Greenley told Court TV they were able to trace the leak back to an associate of Andrew Baldwin, one of Richard Allen’s defense attorneys, who was hoping to plug the leak.

Another news report with a law professor discussing the serious nature of the photo leak and its potential impact on the case

 
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So now along with the circus of the central players we have additional sensationalising, sermonising and virtue signalling from the sidelines - good grief.

Do Aine and Kevin think they are the first people to receive unauthorised evidence from sources known/ unknown?

Do they not think that this happens to actual real journalists on a frequent basis?

And what do those real journalists do? They quietly hand them over to the proper authorities and move on without making a big scene about it.

What they don't do is - rush to broadcast; monetise their 'scoop'; quiet/ soft brag about seeing the photos and pass opinion on what they might mean for the case; sermonise about the actions of others when they are doing the exact thing they are seeking to criticise.

MS - you could have just handed the photos onto the authorities. You need to answer why chose to do much more than that.

On second thoughts, don't bother - you're not credible.
 
That certainly is intriguing. I do wonder if what you noticed may well have been connected to the accidental leaked listing of the crime scene photos that occurred earlier, especially if the listing also contained brief descriptions of each of the photos.

If so, that may be why you noticed similarity to the descriptions in the recent memorandum since it was all defence related. And also the crime scene photo similarities could be why “R” anticipated it could be presumed by others to connect back to that earlier leaking episode in order to protect the true identity of “M”. In essence Woodhouse was being set up as the fallguy and Baldwin had already apologized to the Judge for the leak. All my speculation.
Yes, for me, the logical conclusion is that the leak is defense-related, as the talk of seen photos began after the defense team was appointed. The only exception was RL, who began rambling in 2017, likely sourced from rumors that may have started with searchers. Seems to me that in their memorandum, defense capitalized on rumors of one of the wild theories, and have bolstered their theory with photo leaks that ‘crept’ into social media.

jmo and speculation
 
Hopefully this will be properly investigated and quickly reported, to help fend off the endless speculation and questions.

I would certainly like to see a full dated timeline of when the images were initially acquired, the date when they were passed to two podcasters, and when they were passed on to LE and then reported on.

This additional sideshow is obscuring the actual procedural matters at hand which is very unhelpful as there are some important matters to rule on without this getting in the way...
 
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