IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

[MistyWaters]

I'm genuinely confused, what papers would the Prosecution and the Judge have signed approving the D's trustworthy associates?

I am too, I think there’s an interpretive misunderstanding. I‘d think the Non-disclosure Agreement would primarily be between the Court/the Prosecution and the Attorneys representing RA as that’s who is accountable for confidentiality. It turn it would be expected respective attorneys delegate the obligation of non-disclosure under agreement to employees allowed access of the Discovery material, if any.

I can’t imagine a situation where a judge would become directly involved in any way with delegation of duties to law office employees. It’s the lawyers who manage their law offices, not her.

But on the other hand if the Judge didn’t approve any law firm employees to access the Discovery material, then bye bye defence.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

So if this process in fact was followed, you’re suggesting the defence isn’t responsible for the leak? I’d say that’s a giant leap given we don’t have much information at all and that’s probably because it’s not up to rule on it. The matter is before the Judge on Thursday.

From what we know, it did come from the D side. I just don't think it was an under-handed evil act on their part. Of course, I could be wrong; it sure wouldn't be the first time.

I've seen a lot of giant leaps being taken over the course of 6 years or so. I preface my posts with MOO. If you find them so outlandish (and maybe they are) please just ignore me.

 

[Bergmann]

Especially to show that it wasn't a ritual sacrifice.

Well that's not what I had in mind tbh.

My objectives if were leading P would be -
1. Shock and awe - heighten the emotional charge amongst the jurors, and the compulsion to convict from being disgusted at the photos
2. Illustrate the staging of the scene post mortem (don't drag me into a time of death debate here, this isn't the point I'm making!)
3. Refer back to the equally emotionally charged opening statement that I would have previously made at the beginning, pointing at the accused RA and telling the jurors "that they will be shocked and appalled at one this man did... (pointing at RA) to these innocent girls..."

That way when the photos are shown I'll have already planted the emotional response I want to get and its association with RA specifically.

As P I wouldn't give the D argument about ritual sacrifice any credence by going out of my way to tackle it, I'd dismiss it as fanciful and instead keep hammering home the "this man did these awful things" message.

Then I'd pile on with " and that is why members of the jury, this man confessed, because his conscience couldn't cope with the awful things he had done, the things you have seen..." again which psychologically links the trauma the jurors will feel of seeing those crime scene photos with the conclusion of guilt by confession.

I know I keep suggesting that IMO the state's case is both thin and flawed (YMMV etc), but I still reckon I could get a conviction from a jury with just a few pieces of evidence and some fairly standard P jury leading.

 

[Bergmann]

But on the other hand if the Judge didn’t approve any law firm employees to access the Discovery material, then bye bye defence.

Not sure I understand that. When the protective order was placed on the materials there was surely a covenant attached which specified rights of review and obligations of those to whom the rights were granted? This would likely be RA, and his legal defense and some stipulation about their employees.

Whatever has happened (which isn't that straightforward to follow) RA's lead for defense will have been nominated as accountable for preserving the protective order. If we assume from reports that this has been broken then I'm afraid one or both of Baldwin and Rozzi will be seen as accountable by the J who has a range of punitive actions that she can choose to take as she feels appropriate.

I'm guessing that this won't necessarily be dealt with this week, and will maybe reach conclusion at the Oct 31 hearing. I won't speculate as to what Gull will decide but for D it won't be good (and their credibility will be severely damaged at a time when they will be trying to get something for their client from the Franks hearing).

 

[MistyWaters]

From what we know, it did come from the D side. I just don't think it was an under-handed evil act on their part. Of course, I could be wrong; it sure wouldn't be the first time.

I've seen a lot of giant leaps being taken over the course of 6 years or so. I preface my posts with MOO. If you find them so outlandish (and maybe they are) please just ignore me.

I‘ve never said I think the leak was an underhanded evil act on the part of the defence attorneys. I don’t know why you’d think that as I’ve attributed it to lax supervision. My personal opinion on how that happened is too many writers had access to the Discovery material in a blitz writing of the memo, which was written in haste before all Discovery was received. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Huh, left a few years ago, never worked on the Allen case? So why did that person have access to documents?? Baldwin’s IT files were hacked??? There’s certainly much more to this story….

Leaked documents could put Delphi murders case in jeopardy

Richard Allen was arrested for the February 2017 murders of 13-year-old Abigail “Abby” Williams and 14-year-old Liberty “Libby” German.

www.wishtv.com

“The attorney’s former employee had left Baldwin’s practice a few years ago and never worked on the Allen case. However, that person took pictures of the documents with a phone and then gave the images to another person, who then sent them out.”

 

[FrostedGlass]

BBM
BW. It is at the beginning of the most recent podcast.

The Delphi Murders: Leaked Crime Scene Photographs: Questions

Content warning: This episode contains discussion of suicide. This episode of The Murder Sheet will cover the recent catastrophic leak of crime scene photographs and other discovery material. We'll answer a few common questions we received from listeners. Send tips to murdersheet@gmail.com...

art19.com

Thanks. That was helpful.

Have you decided yet if you're going to the hearing or not? I wish you would.

 

[MistyWaters]

Not sure I understand that. When the protective order was placed on the materials there was surely a covenant attached which specified rights of review and obligations of those to whom the rights were granted? This would likely be RA, and his legal defense and some stipulation about their employees.

Whatever has happened (which isn't that straightforward to follow) RA's lead for defense will have been nominated as accountable for preserving the protective order. If we assume from reports that this has been broken then I'm afraid one or both of Baldwin and Rozzi will be seen as accountable by the J who has a range of punitive actions that she can choose to take as she feels appropriate.

I'm guessing that this won't necessarily be dealt with this week, and will maybe reach conclusion at the Oct 31 hearing. I won't speculate as to what Gull will decide but for D it won't be good (and their credibility will be severely damaged at a time when they will be trying to get something for their client from the Franks hearing).

I doubt the Judge will decide on the issue on Thursday either.

This looks to be the second instance involving Baldwin.

“The defense attorneys previously had caught the attention of the court for leaked documents. In the spring, discovery documents were leaked, and Baldwin accepted responsibility.“

Leaked documents could put Delphi murders case in jeopardy

Richard Allen was arrested for the February 2017 murders of 13-year-old Abigail “Abby” Williams and 14-year-old Liberty “Libby” German.

www.wishtv.com

 

[StarryStarryNight]

We've been told the leak came from an ex-employee.

If the prosecution and the judge signed the papers approving the D's trustworthy associates, what could D have done to prevent the leak from happening?

I don’t think the judge or the prosecution signed anything “approving“ people the defense put forth as needing to work with the discovery and specifically the most sensitive information.
My understanding is every person who is granted access, on either the prosecution or defense side has to sign a document promising not to reveal anything they see or read in the discovery. The defense attorneys are responsible for their employees and anyone they hire to professionally work with parts of the discovery, all of whom sign that promise. “ the buck stops here” applies here.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

The only people not being talked about in this case.

 

[twall]

Thanks. That was helpful.

Have you decided yet if you're going to the hearing or not? I wish you would.

No, I can't go. I was thinking it was Wed when daughter has to be picked up later due to bowling but it is on Thurs when her pick up is 3:30.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I don’t think the judge or the prosecution signed anything “approving“ people the defense put forth as needing to work with the discovery and specifically the most sensitive information.
My understanding is every person who is granted access, on either the prosecution or defense side has to sign a document promising not to reveal anything they see or read in the discovery. The defense attorneys are responsible for their employees and anyone they hire to professionally work with parts of the discovery, all of whom sign that promise. “ the buck stops here” applies here.

All I know is what I read from MS, which I quoted. If you've seen something to the contrary, other than opinion, it would be helpful if you can link to it.

 

[tlcya]

Cain says she has seen no evidence that either of Allen’s court-appointed lawyers had any hand in leaking these documents.

The defense attorneys previously had caught the attention of the court for leaked documents. In the spring, discovery documents were leaked, and Baldwin accepted responsibility.
Leaked documents could put Delphi murders case in jeopardy

Does anyone really believe that the defense, who admitted having leaked previous discovery IN THIS CASE, had nothing to do with the leak of the highly incendiary crime scene photos just as the dust is settling on their Motion for the Public, er Press, er Court to consider the Odinism flight of fancy?

I think not. I am not nearly so gullible as that. And conveniently the former employee wasn't even on the RA case just worked at the firm? Somebody set the employee up to it. Nobody will convince me otherwise.

The defense is playing a dangerous game MOO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

All I know is what I read from MS, which I quoted. If you've seen something to the contrary, other than opinion, it would be helpful if you can link to it.

I think I will have to admonish myself on this one. Very sorry about that.
I didn’t realize MS had put out another episode, so I might have missed something.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think I will have to admonish myself on this one. Very sorry about that.
I didn’t realize MS had put out another episode, so I might have missed something.

lol.. what happens when you admonish yourself?

 

[Justice101]

Cain says she has seen no evidence that either of Allen’s court-appointed lawyers had any hand in leaking these documents.

The defense attorneys previously had caught the attention of the court for leaked documents. In the spring, discovery documents were leaked, and Baldwin accepted responsibility.
Leaked documents could put Delphi murders case in jeopardy

Does anyone really believe that the defense, who admitted having leaked previous discovery IN THIS CASE, had nothing to do with the leak of the highly incendiary crime scene photos just as the dust is settling on their Motion for the Public, er Press, er Court to consider the Odinism flight of fancy?

I think not. I am not nearly so gullible as that. And conveniently the former employee wasn't even on the RA case just worked at the firm? Somebody set the employee up to it. Nobody will convince me otherwise.

The defense is playing a dangerous game MOO

Was it the former Def employee that committed suicide when it was discovered they were the leak?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Well that's not what I had in mind tbh.

My objectives if were leading P would be -
1. Shock and awe - heighten the emotional charge amongst the jurors, and the compulsion to convict from being disgusted at the photos
2. Illustrate the staging of the scene post mortem (don't drag me into a time of death debate here, this isn't the point I'm making!)
3. Refer back to the equally emotionally charged opening statement that I would have previously made at the beginning, pointing at the accused RA and telling the jurors "that they will be shocked and appalled at one this man did... (pointing at RA) to these innocent girls..."

That way when the photos are shown I'll have already planted the emotional response I want to get and its association with RA specifically.

As P I wouldn't give the D argument about ritual sacrifice any credence by going out of my way to tackle it, I'd dismiss it as fanciful and instead keep hammering home the "this man did these awful things" message.

Then I'd pile on with " and that is why members of the jury, this man confessed, because his conscience couldn't cope with the awful things he had done, the things you have seen..." again which psychologically links the trauma the jurors will feel of seeing those crime scene photos with the conclusion of guilt by confession.

I know I keep suggesting that IMO the state's case is both thin and flawed (YMMV etc), but I still reckon I could get a conviction from a jury with just a few pieces of evidence and some fairly standard P jury leading.

Don't forget that most important thing you did the minute you met the prospective jurors. You had first chance to make an impression, to build rapport with them and you already passed your Master of Persuasion course in flying colors. You smiled at them individually, you understood their feelings and you showed them you are someone they can like, and most of all, trust.

Edited to add in case someone misunderstands: You really didn't do all those things.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

lol.. what happens when you admonish yourself?

I give myself quite a talking to, then I roll my eyes back at myself, which causes me to send myself to my room, where I pout for awhile until I realize the errors of my ways followed by a brief period of self loathing, then I tell myself I have learned my lesson and promise to try not do it again. There are hugs, a few tears, and eventually…ice cream.

 

[tlcya]

Was it the former Def employee that committed suicide when it was discovered they were the leak?

someone upthread posted:

Leaked documents could put Delphi murders case in jeopardy​

Richard Allen was arrested for the February 2017 murders of 13-year-old Abigail “Abby” Williams and 14-year-old Liberty “Libby” German.

www.wishtv.com
“The attorney’s former employee had left Baldwin’s practice a few years ago and never worked on the Allen case. However, that person took pictures of the documents with a phone and then gave the images to another person, who then sent them out.”
-------------------------------------------
my understanding is that the person who received them from the former employee and disseminated them is the person who committed suicide. I may have misunderstood that though.
IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

 

[Justice101]

someone upthread posted:

Leaked documents could put Delphi murders case in jeopardy​

Richard Allen was arrested for the February 2017 murders of 13-year-old Abigail “Abby” Williams and 14-year-old Liberty “Libby” German.

www.wishtv.com
“The attorney’s former employee had left Baldwin’s practice a few years ago and never worked on the Allen case. However, that person took pictures of the documents with a phone and then gave the images to another person, who then sent them out.”
-------------------------------------------
my understanding is that the person who received them from the former employee and disseminated them is the person who committed suicide. I may have misunderstood that though.
IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

probably told the person that they sent it to... DO NOT under any circumstances send these pictures to anyone else!

But like the girlfriend in HS who has her own nude photos and sends to her boyfriend, certain people cannot be trusted.

Sad that anyone would take such pictures... but like the Cobe Bryant plane crash pictures.. people have access to a camera (in the form of their phone) all the time and it is too much of a temptation.