IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[Justice101]

If local LE are so corrupt, why didn't they "frame" someone much sooner?

There were so many people in LE from state and federal level agencies, massive news and social media coverage. With all that oversight, I doubt any detectives rigged the game to accuse RA and force him to confess. Everyone was watching.

IMO, 90% of framing someone is just in the movies. there are obvious examples, but that is usually the conspiracy people that claim that all the time on murder investigations.

 

[Betty P]

IMO, 90% of framing someone is just in the movies. there are obvious examples, but that is usually the conspiracy people that claim that all the time on murder investigations.

These days, it seems it would be extremely difficult to "frame" someone in a high profile criminal trial.

 

[mrjitty]

IMO, 90% of framing someone is just in the movies. there are obvious examples, but that is usually the conspiracy people that claim that all the time on murder investigations.

Right. And conversely in big trials, there are examples where corruption leads to cases being holed below the water line by corrupt cops. See for example the London Met where prosecutions are intentionally scuppered as a result of institutional corruption.

The classic framing is more likely in low level cases where unsophisticated defendants go down for crimes based on dodgy evidence due to lack of resources to adequately defend themselves. Hardly the case here IMO.

 

[steeltowngirl]

[And before that] they went above and beyond even as PDs under a significant pay cut. The investigation, the pleadings, the work they actually put into this case was outstanding and nothing short of impressive. I know there are people who disagree with this on a personal level but from my perspective personally, it was impressive, and many in the legal community recognized it, including I would bet, NM.
But, jmo

I don’t think the defense did that much work. I am willing to bet that if I cobbled together my own notes and analysis of rumors and articles collected over the past 6.5 years, I could write well over a 136 page document. Many of my fellow sleuthers could do the same. And that’s without the benefit of discovery documents dropped at our doorstep, and a team of paralegals to review.

jmo

 

[FrostedGlass]

Right. And conversely in big trials, there are examples where corruption leads to cases being holed below the water line by corrupt cops. See for example the London Met where prosecutions are intentionally scuppered as a result of institutional corruption.

The classic framing is more likely in low level cases where unsophisticated defendants go down for crimes based on dodgy evidence due to lack of resources to adequately defend themselves. Hardly the case here IMO.

Let's imagine some things about the magic bullet, based on what "we" know.
There are only 3 pictures of the cartridge still in the ground.
There is no chain of custody for that cartridge.
There is no witness signature on the search warrant return for the gun, ammo.

Is there any way RA could have been set up?

 

[mrjitty]

I don’t think the defense did that much work. I am willing to bet that if I cobbled together my own notes and analysis of rumors and articles collected over the past 6.5 years, I could write well over a 136 page document. Many of my fellow sleuthers could do the same. And that’s without the benefit of discovery documents dropped at our doorstep, and a team of paralegals to review.

jmo

I agree

This isn't like the Morphew case where pretrial they got key evidence excluded and then sanctions imposed and then a dismissal? Conducted numerous pretrial hearings and got their client bail?

In a year, these guys have basically filed one bizarre franks memo which had lots of critical bits missing such that they had to file the missing stuff later, conducted no evidential hearings, got nothing excluded, didn't get bail, then leaked the crime scene photos and case strategy ... yet we were supposedly in the run up to trial?

It's clear they would have needed a continuance because no way were they ready.

And now there client faces an extra year in jail awaiting trial

Shame for RA that he was landed with such poor performing counsel IMO

 

[mrjitty]

Let's imagine some things about the magic bullet, based on what "we" know.
There are only 3 pictures of the cartridge still in the ground.
There is no chain of custody for that cartridge.
There is no witness signature on the search warrant return for the gun, ammo.

Is there any way RA could have been set up?

So please explain how this theory works?

Someone plants the bullet at the crime scene years ago, then plants the gun at his house?

Or how do you imagine this can possibly work?

 

[Megnut]

So what DNA evidence did they collect from the scene in 2017 if it isn’t RA’s (per LE
depositions)?

Page 129, Part V of the FM states that both Liggett and Holeman testified under oath at their deposition that there is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the CS.

I think you should read their own words (LE) instead of the defense counsel's words because we know you distrust the defense. LE thought it was a big deal at the time. So, the question is why did this big break suddenly disappear? Whose DNA is it? Did they clear the person and if not, why not?

DNA evidence is top priority in Delphi murder investigation

INDIANAPOLIS, Ind.- On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found mu…

fox59.com

Tony Liggett has testified under oath that there is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene.
184 Liggett further has testified that he is unaware of anything that links Richard to the crime through his phone, computers or electronics. 185 Liggett has further testified that he is unaware of any evidence that links Richard Allen to any weird religious cult group. 186

184 Liggett depo. p. 80, lines 1-3.
185 Liggett depo. p. 80, lines 9-12.
186 Liggett depo. p. 80, lines 13-25

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

I'm pages behind but want to bump in to (respond in general to an assortment of posts to) say that it CAN be the case that there's DNA at the scene, DNA that doesn't match RA, but DNA that establishes a strong link. Damning linkage.

DNA from a family pet.

Transfer DNA from RA's family. (As in the LISK case, where a strand of the innocent wife's hair was left on a victim. Transfer.)

And even more incriminating, DNA in the other direction. DNA from one or both girls on anything RA owned, clothing, vehicle, home

Also damning, anything in his possession with both his DNA and theirs.

At trial, I don't think we'll be underwhelmed by the State's evidence. I think it will be glaring, overwhelming, devastating.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

So please explain how this theory works?

Someone plants the bullet at the crime scene years ago, then plants the gun at his house?

Or how do you imagine this can possibly work?

The bullet wasn't planted. Barbara McDonald said in one of her interviews that some even speculated that one of the LE dropped it. As I understand it, there are a number of different guns that use the same kind of ammo.

 

[Megnut]

[sbbm]

I'm curious how you know this. Because I don't think anyone knows this. What we do know, however, is that we've got a conflict.

We have TL saying RA was there between 1:30 and 3:30
vs.
RA in a voluntary interview, stating in response to TL's telling him that LE thinks the girls were abducted between 1:30 and 3:30 and asking (paraphrasing) "Were you there?" and RA stating "Yeah. I got there around noon and left around 1:30." (p. 109)

1. For corroboration of TL's sworn statement we have a "lost and unrecorded" accounting from a connected LE partner (Dan Dulin) - p. 133

2. For corroboration of TL's sworn statement we have an independent witness (SC) who gave a provided a description 4 months later of a man she saw at 3:57 p.m., and that sketch looked similar to RA as well as to a number of other people. (p.106)

1. For corroboration of RA's account we have an independent witness (BB) with no dog in this fight who states that sometime around 2:15 p.m., RA's car was not there. She knows this because there was only one car there and she looked. She remembered the car because it was a car that reminded her of a car her dad when she was a kid, and so she examined it - examined it to the point where she was able to draw a sketch of its body and angles. (p.113, 114; FN 164)

2. For corroboration of RA's account we also have an independent witness (BB) who gave a contemporaneous sketch of the man she saw which was memorialized 3 days later, and that sketch looked nothing like RA. (p.105)

Then we have an unverified video that is claimed in the PCA to be time stamped at 2:13. We can't positively ID RA in the video but if we say it's him for argument's sake, how do you know they didn't film him as they were walking in, and he was walking out? Has the video been produced to the defense? Was a forensic analysis report produced?

There are missing facts here. So again, based on the public facing information we have, how is that you know RA was present on the trail at the time A&L were abducted and attacked?

jmo

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

In part, it's RA's own claim that puts him on course to be on the bridge just as A and L were mapped to be there, as time stamped by their photo and video. RA said he saw the group of juveniles.... which puts him on the path long after 1:30 and much closer to 3pm.

That's a big hurdle for the defense.

JMO

 

[DeDee]

“There is a difference between a scene that is staged and a scene that is posed,” McCollum said.

“If a perpetrator staged the scene, they did that for their benefit. So you try to make it look like there’s an accident. Posed, which I believe is what this scene is, that is for the offender’s gratification.”

5.18.22
Blood, Sex Staging, Fiber Evidence: Chilling New Details in Murder of Two Delphi Little Girls

The FBI agent said investigators did recover fibers and unidentified hairs at the crime scene.

11.30.22
Here's a timeline of major developments in the Delphi murders case

 

[303gmf]

It has been addressed already. RA should never have been sent to Westville. We have no idea exactly how he was treated by the guards this entire time nor what the prisoners were allowed to do. We do know the guards with Odin patches tased him twice. RA is probably mistreated the entire time. Look how they bring him into court dressed and shackled like no presumed innocent defendant I've seen. Compare his treatment to BryanKohberger and it's night and day.

MOO

IMO Wishing BK would be treated just like RA

 

[MistyWaters]

11/14/2023

Order Issued The Court has recently reviewed the Chronological Case Summary (CCS) in this cause and notes that the Clerk of the Court has not yet made available to the public on the CCS the 118 documents previously made remotely accessible by Court Order of June 28, 2023. The Court previously created a website for these documents as a convenience to the public and the Clerk and to ensure the public had prompt remote access to these documents. The Clerk is ordered to enter these documents on the CCS forthwith. The Clerk is further ordered to unseal the June 20, 2023, filing by the Carroll County Sheriff and the July 5, 2023, letter from a Department of Correction inmate and place same on the CCS. The Court further notes that a Motion for Franks Hearing, and accompanying documents filed by former attorneys on September 18, 2023 (including the Franks Motion, Memorandum in Support of Motion and Exhibits List) are marked as confidential on the CCS as counsel failed to supply a redacted version at the time of filing. On October 31, 2023, the Court ordered defendant's new counsel to review the pleadings and discovery and either adopt those pleadings or make their own. If counsel adopts same, they are ordered to file a redacted version of the pleadings. If defendant's new counsel inform the Court they intend to pursue the Franks Motion, the Court will schedule a hearing. Finally, the Clerk is ordered to place and make accessible on the CCS former attorneys' pleadings of October 25, 2023, and October 26, 2023. As noted in its prior order, the Court considers these pleadings stricken from the record and will not consider those pleadings as the attorneys who filed same are no longer counsel of record. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Scremin, Robert Cliff Noticed: Lebrato, William Santino Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Order Signed: 11/14/2023

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

Would anyone like to speculate why this Order by the SC is written in such a way as to suggest there’s absolutely no issue with the former council being dismissed by The Judge and the new council appointed?

 

[DeDee]

Apropos EF: I can't understand, why someone, who isn't mentally disabled himself and is going to murder 2 teenagers, should have taken EF with him to the crime scene. A developmentally challenged person like EF would have jeopardized the whole secret operation, with a little bit of bad luck, on the first day (Febr 13th) already.

Good point, @FromGermany1

While it may be true that EF's sister sat for a polygraph and passed it does not necessarily mean that EF told her the truth. I'm not sure a mentally handicapped witness could withstand a cross examination. Could EF?

What is it with the witness who stated their vehicle was borrowed and returned with blood on the side?

MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

Good point, @FromGermany1

While it may be true that EF's sister sat for a polygraph and passed it does not necessarily mean that EF told her the truth. I'm not sure a mentally handicapped witness could withstand a cross examination. Could EF?

What is it with the witness who stated their vehicle was borrowed and returned with blood on the side?

MOO

In this particular case I doubt incriminating tips can ever be taken at face value without LE conducting further investigation. Reward money can be a powerful motivator. A prosecution is not going to happen based solely on a tip, as the Ex-D seems to suggest it should have. JMO

 

[Ward Thisperer]

Would anyone like to speculate why this Order by the SC is written in such a way as to suggest there’s absolutely no issue with the former council being dismissed by The Judge and the new council appointed?

That order is by JG not the SC. Sounds like she’s cleaning up her mess of the CCS but sticking by her dismissal of the lawyers.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

In part, it's RA's own claim that puts him on course to be on the bridge just as A and L were mapped to be there, as time stamped by their photo and video. RA said he saw the group of juveniles.... which puts him on the path long after 1:30 and much closer to 3pm.

That's a big hurdle for the defense.

JMO

The juveniles report seeing BG around 1:30pm near FB. So that matches up pretty well with RA’s timeline that has him leaving around 1:30 imo.

 

[MistyWaters]

That order is by JG not the SC. Sounds like she’s cleaning up her mess of the CCS but sticking by her dismissal of the lawyers.

Okay thanks very much for the clarification!

 

[Megnut]

In part, it's RA's own claim that puts him on course to be on the bridge just as A and L were mapped to be there, as time stamped by their photo and video. RA said he saw the group of juveniles.... which puts him on the path long after 1:30 and much closer to 3pm.

That's a big hurdle for the defense.

JMO

The juveniles report seeing BG around 1:30pm near FB. So that matches up pretty well with RA’s timeline that has him leaving around 1:30 imo.

Quoting myself and @Ward_Thisperer to correct myself. Too late to edit. I meant 2pm.

There is IMO convergence.

The juveniles.

RA, arriving (I believe he was arriving not leaving)

The juveniles passing RA, as they are leaving and he his hurrying, head down

A and L arriving

The lady who saw RA on the bridge, a location he himself verified

Tight timing.

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

I missed this before. Trial date set.
ETA: apparently I didn’t miss it after all. I went into my calendar to add the trial dates and it was already there. {facepalm}

10/15/2024

Jury Trial Session: 10/15/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/16/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/17/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/18/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/21/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/22/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/23/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/24/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/25/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/28/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/29/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/30/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/31/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 11/01/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access public.courts.in.gov