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IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

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Quoting myself and @Ward_Thisperer to correct myself. Too late to edit. I meant 2pm.

There is IMO convergence.

The juveniles.

RA, arriving (I believe he was arriving not leaving)

The juveniles passing RA, as they are leaving and he his hurrying, head down

A and L arriving

The lady who saw RA on the bridge, a location he himself verified

Tight timing.

JMO
My understanding is the juveniles saw him shortly after a photo they took of a bench by the FB with a timestamp 1:26pm. So, their sighting is close to 1:30.
The witness at the bridge, BB, saw a man she reported was in his 20s-30s with poofy hair, and who was lanky, around 2pm. (Sketch #2) So she did see a man, but I don’t think the sighting matches RA.
JMO
 
I'm pages behind but want to bump in to (respond in general to an assortment of posts to) say that it CAN be the case that there's DNA at the scene, DNA that doesn't match RA, but DNA that establishes a strong link. Damning linkage.

DNA from a family pet.

Transfer DNA from RA's family. (As in the LISK case, where a strand of the innocent wife's hair was left on a victim. Transfer.)

And even more incriminating, DNA in the other direction. DNA from one or both girls on anything RA owned, clothing, vehicle, home

Also damning, anything in his possession with both his DNA and theirs.

At trial, I don't think we'll be underwhelmed by the State's evidence. I think it will be glaring, overwhelming, devastating.

JMO
If there is ”solid” evidence against RA, I will be persuaded. I just don’t see that happening at this point and I’m actually concerned that if they do present some “bombshell” there’s a strong possibility of them having planted it. This is just my opinion on what I have read so far.

Any evidence withheld that is exculpatory, any line of investigation steered intentionally in the wrong direction and any “evidence” that has been misrepresented can corrupt an entire investigation and lead to a wrongful arrest. Right now, that’s what I think has happened. MOO

I’m not saying all the LE are corrupt in CC, far from it. It appears quite a few did their job well. Others, not so much in my estimation. What niggles me is why the obfuscation of the truth to arrest RA? What was the reason they dropped a line of investigation that should have been followed through on, ruling those people out 100% before going after RA?

I have a theory, but won’t express it here as it may take me out of TOS or worse, offend other members and for obvious reasons, I’d like to avoid all of that! I may be way of course too. Regardless, too much that’s come out so far doesn’t sit well with me.

Unlike some other cases, I am “underwhelmed” at this point in the State’s case and duly impressed by the efforts of R & B on RA’s behalf. If I were a well established attorney, I would not put everything on the line for some guy that is clearly guilty of being involved in some way or other in this heinous murder of two young girls. Why would you risk it all for a low life creep? My answer, you wouldn’t! I think Mitch set them up for this “clustermuck“ as it has derailed the case and perhaps damaged it beyond repair. AB was betrayed by someone he trusted. The question is why did he do it?? If my theory is correct, we’ll never get the real answer to who all was involved in bringing about the leak. They are investigating themselves!

Conspiracies do exist. A secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful. Subverting justice is unlawful and harmful. I know I’m in the minority here and that’s fine. It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve found myself out in the cold, lol!! JMVHO.
 
Apropos EF: I can't understand, why someone, who isn't mentally disabled himself and is going to murder 2 teenagers, should have taken EF with him to the crime scene. A developmentally challenged person like EF would have jeopardized the whole secret operation, with a little bit of bad luck, on the first day (Febr 13th) already. o_O
My only thought on that is, their IQ is also in question? On the one hand, I’d love to these meet guys. On the other hand, maybe not! :)
 
I agree

This isn't like the Morphew case where pretrial they got key evidence excluded and then sanctions imposed and then a dismissal? Conducted numerous pretrial hearings and got their client bail?

In a year, these guys have basically filed one bizarre franks memo which had lots of critical bits missing such that they had to file the missing stuff later, conducted no evidential hearings, got nothing excluded, didn't get bail, then leaked the crime scene photos and case strategy ... yet we were supposedly in the run up to trial?

It's clear they would have needed a continuance because no way were they ready.

And now there client faces an extra year in jail awaiting trial

Shame for RA that he was landed with such poor performing counsel IMO

I agree. Other than creating drama through sensationalist motions, the ex-D has really not advanced this case forward at all. The multitude of headlines they’ve generated is not indicative of competent defense.

If indeed RA‘s indictment was based on weak and/or faulty evidence, there should be no need to flout Odinism. As you mention, the Morphew case is a good example.

JMO
 
What are all the BH and Evil Odinist Cult members killed Abby & Libby going to do when the State presents solid evidence that BH was at work and nowhere near Delphi at the time of these murders? Do we really think LE did not seriously vet BH and those associated with him and their alibis? Just curious.

<snipped & BBM from the Defense OWN Memorandum> I chose to use initials of the persons involved.

Whenever BH’s name was brought up as a suspect, one reason that kept popping up as to why BH was cleared as a suspect was his purported alibi. An unclassified FBI report revealed the work – or lack of work—that law enforcement performed to check out H’s alibi. That document is marked as Exhibit 65. This report was prepared on April 13, 2017. In this report, Pulaski Sheriff’s Deputy, FR followed up at Liberty Landfill in attempt to verify the employment and the work schedule of BH. SC from human resources stated that H’s timecard showed that he clocked in at 4:55 a.m. and clocked out at 2:45 p.m. C also said that she would be the only person that could change/manipulate the electronic timecard. C further admitted that there was a security camera on site. Here is how Deputy R memorialized that part of their conversation: C advised BH drives a “junkie” red truck to work with a “G” on the front bumper. C advised the security camera at the scales may have picked up his vehicle coming and going on that date. C advised that Holder stays on property for his lunch break. The short report concludes with this: “C provided this officer a copy of the time sheet for this week showing BH indeed had clocked in and out on February 13th and he was still at work on today’s date.

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police
 
I agree. Other than creating drama through sensationalist motions, the ex-D has really not advanced this case forward at all. The multitude of headlines they’ve generated is not indicative of competent defense.

JMO
Totally agree, it speaks more to me of more of their gross misconduct and negligence.

MOO
 
What are all the BH and Evil Odinist Cult members killed Abby & Libby going to do when the State presents solid evidence that BH was at work and nowhere near Delphi at the time of these murders? Do we really think LE did not seriously vet BH and those associated with him and their alibis? Just curious.

<snipped & BBM from the Defense OWN Memorandum> I chose to use initials of the persons involved.

Whenever BH’s name was brought up as a suspect, one reason that kept popping up as to why BH was cleared as a suspect was his purported alibi. An unclassified FBI report revealed the work – or lack of work—that law enforcement performed to check out H’s alibi. That document is marked as Exhibit 65. This report was prepared on April 13, 2017. In this report, Pulaski Sheriff’s Deputy, FR followed up at Liberty Landfill in attempt to verify the employment and the work schedule of BH. SC from human resources stated that H’s timecard showed that he clocked in at 4:55 a.m. and clocked out at 2:45 p.m. C also said that she would be the only person that could change/manipulate the electronic timecard. C further admitted that there was a security camera on site. Here is how Deputy R memorialized that part of their conversation: C advised BH drives a “junkie” red truck to work with a “G” on the front bumper. C advised the security camera at the scales may have picked up his vehicle coming and going on that date. C advised that Holder stays on property for his lunch break. The short report concludes with this: “C provided this officer a copy of the time sheet for this week showing BH indeed had clocked in and out on February 13th and he was still at work on today’s date.

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

And so I notice amidst the ex-D‘s strategy of pointing fingers of guilt in various directions away from their client, they’ve never accounted why RA could not have committed the murders, other than state the time he claimed he was at the trail was due to mistakes or misunderstandings. Interesting that he has no alibi, yet others who they blame do.

JMO
 
What are all the BH and Evil Odinist Cult members killed Abby & Libby going to do when the State presents solid evidence that BH was at work and nowhere near Delphi at the time of these murders? Do we really think LE did not seriously vet BH and those associated with him and their alibis? Just curious.

<snipped & BBM from the Defense OWN Memorandum> I chose to use initials of the persons involved.

Whenever BH’s name was brought up as a suspect, one reason that kept popping up as to why BH was cleared as a suspect was his purported alibi. An unclassified FBI report revealed the work – or lack of work—that law enforcement performed to check out H’s alibi. That document is marked as Exhibit 65. This report was prepared on April 13, 2017. In this report, Pulaski Sheriff’s Deputy, FR followed up at Liberty Landfill in attempt to verify the employment and the work schedule of BH. SC from human resources stated that H’s timecard showed that he clocked in at 4:55 a.m. and clocked out at 2:45 p.m. C also said that she would be the only person that could change/manipulate the electronic timecard. C further admitted that there was a security camera on site. Here is how Deputy R memorialized that part of their conversation: C advised BH drives a “junkie” red truck to work with a “G” on the front bumper. C advised the security camera at the scales may have picked up his vehicle coming and going on that date. C advised that Holder stays on property for his lunch break. The short report concludes with this: “C provided this officer a copy of the time sheet for this week showing BH indeed had clocked in and out on February 13th and he was still at work on today’s date.

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police
Personally, I think there’s a real possibility that BH was at work. It just doesn’t change why I think RA is not the likely killer. Taking BH out of the CS doesn’t automatically make RA guilty.

Also, I do not think some of these players were investigated as thoroughly as one would hope/expect. Had that been done from the get go, the investigation may have revealed the actual killer/killers. That neglect early on, likely resulted in lost evidence that is no longer available. That, is truly unfortunate. MOO
 
What are all the BH and Evil Odinist Cult members killed Abby & Libby going to do when the State presents solid evidence that BH was at work and nowhere near Delphi at the time of these murders? Do we really think LE did not seriously vet BH and those associated with him and their alibis? Just curious.
sbm IMO, If the defense theory is correct, I don’t think BH is the strongest suspect to have actually committed the murders, I think it’s more likely that if he is involved he helped move bodies afterwards. So, he could have gotten to Delphi in plenty of time for that theory to hold up. other individuals (E and J) are the bigger questions for me. I also don’t believe it was a ritual.
And so I notice amidst the ex-D‘s strategy of pointing fingers of guilt in various directions away from their client, they’ve never accounted why RA could not have committed the murders, other than state the time he claimed he was at the trail was due to mistakes or misunderstandings. Interesting that he has no alibi, yet others who they blame do.

JMO
Well they did emphasize that BB did not see a car that could have been RA’s in the CPS lot when she was leaving. But it is a good point, I wonder what RA is said to have done before/after the murders. Still, only being questioned 5 years later would make it difficult for anyone to account for exactly where they were at and who they were with if they day wasn’t significant for them.
 
Let's imagine some things about the magic bullet, based on what "we" know.
There are only 3 pictures of the cartridge still in the ground.
There is no chain of custody for that cartridge.
There is no witness signature on the search warrant return for the gun, ammo.

Is there any way RA could have been set up?
According to the Defense Memorandum directly they offered up 3 explanations for not having photos of the bullet after it was found at the scene, including that they themselves might have missed it, this is what I am talking about when I say the D really took liberties with their accusations and interpretations, and there are many more half truths like this within that document IMO:

<snipped>
In other words, the only photos that the Defense has found in the discovery it has received are of the bullet still buried in the ground. At this time, the Defense has no idea if (a) photos of the bullet after it was removed from the ground even exist; or (2) the photos exist but the state has not yet turned those important photographs over to the Defense, or (3) the Defense has missed these photos in the voluminous discovery. Either way, the Defense has asked the prosecutor to please locate these.

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police
 
The bullet wasn't planted. Barbara McDonald said in one of her interviews that some even speculated that one of the LE dropped it. As I understand it, there are a number of different guns that use the same kind of ammo.

Ah ok.

But then how does the fitting up work?

Obviously RA would realise if it wasn't his own gun and would challenge that evidence. I don't see how that would be a starter. He hasn't ever denied it is his gun

So that would mean the analysis lab would have to have cooked up a report to fit him up? Why? To what end?

Seems unlikely
 
sbm IMO, If the defense theory is correct, I don’t think BH is the strongest suspect to have actually committed the murders, I think it’s more likely that if he is involved he helped move bodies afterwards. So, he could have gotten to Delphi in plenty of time for that theory to hold up. other individuals (E and J) are the bigger questions for me. I also don’t believe it was a ritual.

Well they did emphasize that BB did not see a car that could have been RA’s in the CPS lot when she was leaving. But it is a good point, I wonder what RA is said to have done before/after the murders. Still, only being questioned 5 years later would make it difficult for anyone to account for exactly where they were at and who they were with if they day wasn’t significant for them.
What sense does it make to emphasize something 'not seen'? I've been to and from many places and I can't begin to imagine how many cars I haven't seen. I'm not thinking about cars in a parking lot on a typical day unless it were to have been something so obvious (bright yellow school bus with horns and sirens blazing).

Sincere question here not argumentative.

MOO
 
The bullet wasn't planted. Barbara McDonald said in one of her interviews that some even speculated that one of the LE dropped it. As I understand it, there are a number of different guns that use the same kind of ammo.
Down The Hill Part 2

BM said some speculated that LE MAY have dropped it, she didn't say definitively they thought LE did drop it.

 
sbm IMO, If the defense theory is correct, I don’t think BH is the strongest suspect to have actually committed the murders, I think it’s more likely that if he is involved he helped move bodies afterwards. So, he could have gotten to Delphi in plenty of time for that theory to hold up. other individuals (E and J) are the bigger questions for me. I also don’t believe it was a ritual.

Well they did emphasize that BB did not see a car that could have been RA’s in the CPS lot when she was leaving. But it is a good point, I wonder what RA is said to have done before/after the murders. Still, only being questioned 5 years later would make it difficult for anyone to account for exactly where they were at and who they were with if they day wasn’t significant for them.
in the FM, pg 118, the ex-D claim RA was at home after his visit to the trails. RA had told Liggett that he left the CPS building at 1:30 pm to go home.
 
What sense does it make to emphasize something 'not seen'? I've been to and from many places and I can't begin to imagine how many cars I haven't seen. I'm not thinking about cars in a parking lot on a typical day unless it were to have been something so obvious (bright yellow school bus with horns and sirens blazing).

Sincere question here not argumentative.

MOO
I think that's a fair point, in the description the D puts forth of what BB says she saw they mention she observed "one car" but that is pretty vague as to whether she knows she only saw 1 car in the lot or whether she only could describe 1 car. I think that was one of the weaker bits of this part of the FM pointing toward TL's misreporting of witness statements.

"However, at 2:15 pm when Betsy Blair passed the old CPS building Betsy Blair did not see a black Ford Focus parked at the old CPS lot. The car that Betsy Blair observed as she passed the old CPS building at 2:15 pm looked nothing like a black Ford Focus. According to Liggett’s own report, Betsy Blair observed one car parked in the CPS lot at 2:15, and that car resembled a “1965 Ford Comet” that her father once owned. The shape had “sharper angles.” Again, to whom did Betsy Blair provide this description of a 1965 Ford Comet-looking, angular in appearance vehicle? None other than Liggett himself. Liggett was fully aware that the car that Betsy Blair described as being backed into a spot at the old CPS building looked nothing like Richard Allen’s black Ford Focus, but Liggett concealed that information from Judge Diener."


Ugh edited because I accidentally sent too quickly!
 
I'm pages behind but want to bump in to (respond in general to an assortment of posts to) say that it CAN be the case that there's DNA at the scene, DNA that doesn't match RA, but DNA that establishes a strong link. Damning linkage.

DNA from a family pet.

Transfer DNA from RA's family. (As in the LISK case, where a strand of the innocent wife's hair was left on a victim. Transfer.)

And even more incriminating, DNA in the other direction. DNA from one or both girls on anything RA owned, clothing, vehicle, home

Also damning, anything in his possession with both his DNA and theirs.

At trial, I don't think we'll be underwhelmed by the State's evidence. I think it will be glaring, overwhelming, devastating.

JMO

Is all this information about DNA in the defense memo? How did they acquire this testimony? Is there a transcript of the testimony? Was it given under oath in court, before a judge? I'll believe it when the discussion of DNA evidence is held in court, under oath, with prosecution and defense making argument before the judge.
 
There was a swarm of state forensic people all around the crime scene.

From what I saw in the news helicopter footage the day the girls were discovered, the collectors wore special fresh body suits so as to not insert any hairs of their own into the crime scene.

My understanding is that the bullet was found to have rolled underneath some leaves. that tells me they likely ran a metal detector over the area afterward and that was probably when the actual bullet was found.

By then more than one photographer would have probably left.

I must have missed it that the bullet was not photographed at all? Or was it just not photographed at the CS or at the lab?
 
Is all this information about DNA in the defense memo? How did they acquire this testimony? Is there a transcript of the testimony? Was it given under oath in court, before a judge? I'll believe it when the discussion of DNA evidence is held in court, under oath, with prosecution and defense making argument before the judge.
Yes it was under oath. They obtained that information from LE in sworn, recorded depositions which were attached to the FM as evidence and will likely be shown in court. We haven't yet been able to obtain the depositions since JG has sealed the FM and its exhibits.
 
According to the Defense Memorandum directly they offered up 3 explanations for not having photos of the bullet after it was found at the scene, including that they themselves might have missed it, this is what I am talking about when I say the D really took liberties with their accusations and interpretations, and there are many more half truths like this within that document IMO:

<snipped>
In other words, the only photos that the Defense has found in the discovery it has received are of the bullet still buried in the ground. At this time, the Defense has no idea if (a) photos of the bullet after it was removed from the ground even exist; or (2) the photos exist but the state has not yet turned those important photographs over to the Defense, or (3) the Defense has missed these photos in the voluminous discovery. Either way, the Defense has asked the prosecutor to please locate these.

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police
That wasn't my question.

Also, somewhere in that memo that you quoted from, one of the LE they questioned said he had not seen any pictures of the bullet other than those three.
 
I think that's a fair point, in the description the D puts forth of what BB says she saw they mention she observed "one car" but that is pretty vague as to whether she knows she only saw 1 car in the lot or whether she only could describe 1 car. I think that was one of the weaker bits of this part of the FM pointing toward TL's misreporting of witness statements.

"However, at 2:15 pm when Betsy Blair passed the old CPS building Betsy Blair did not see a black Ford Focus parked at the old CPS lot. The car that Betsy Blair observed as she passed the old CPS building at 2:15 pm looked nothing like a black Ford Focus. According to Liggett’s own report, Betsy Blair observed one car parked in the CPS lot at 2:15, and that car resembled a “1965 Ford Comet” that her father once owned. The shape had “sharper angles.” Again, to whom did Betsy Blair provide this description of a 1965 Ford Comet-looking, angular in appearance vehicle? None other than Liggett himself. Liggett was fully aware that the car that Betsy Blair described as being backed into a spot at the old CPS building looked nothing like Richard Allen’s black Ford Focus, but Liggett concealed that information from Judge Diener."


Ugh edited because I accidentally sent too quickly!

Apparently, the person who wrote this memo can read people's minds. Liggett "knew" this and that, he "concealed" this or that, etc. For someone so concerned about evidence, their own standards are pretty low when making accusations against witnesses.

So this defense attorney is afraid that, when he questions Liggett on the witness stand, in court, under oath, that Liggett's testimony won't fit the preconceived "facts" the defense has developed on their own. JMO
 
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