IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[susiQ]

Just curious. Is there any evidence or witness testimony of these guys being in the area of the bridge and trail that day? IIRC, there's security cam video from the Harvest ? store nearby that recorded cars driving in the area that day. Did any of the "Odin" guy's vehicles appear in that video? TIA

His name is Elvis Fields (EF). His name comes up 47 times in the FM. He confessed to his sister and had guilty knowledge of the CS before details were released. But, nothing to see here. Shut down that line of investigation. Why? Good question! MOO
ed:snipped

 

[susiQ]

I am still trying to understand what the odinist prison guard allegation has to do with a search warrant issued long before the defendant ever went to prison.

Unless we are supposed to believe that odinists are behind this whole conspiracy against him

Here’s a hypothetical, sort of:

A guy (EF), who confessed to his sister that he was there and had guilty knowledge, happens to be linked to an Odinist that has a “link” to one of the girls. EF tells his sister he put sticks in AW‘s hair, because she was a “troublemaker.” Now who would put that in his head? Furthermore, the guy EF is linked to has pics on his FB that depict some pretty weird ”stuff”, like the CS. Again, nothing to see there. Then, two guards at Westville guarding the accused RA (not deemed guilty yet), just “happen” to sport Odin patches, and according to another inmate, are abusing RA. What a coincidence!?

So, I look at that and I see a problem. A line of investigation that should have taken them elsewhere didn’t. Again, why? LE rather choose to hone in on RA, who had the misfortune of being at the trails and bridge that day, that came forward to offer some assistance. LE massage the times and witness statements to obtain a SW by omitting crucial material that may have given JD pause in issuing said SW.

Personally, I do have a problem with all of this and I can see the “issue” linking the Odin patch wearing guards.
JMHO

ETA: I believe the people who actually did this would like to see RA take his own life. Why? (Lots of why in my mind). Because then, it all goes away. No more investigations, no more FM. Clean getaway. R & B uncovered what they didn’t want uncovered. Too many connections that they do not want revealed. Again, JMHO

 

[Ravenmoon]

imho, these 2 guards were in a job that requires a uniform.

So how, exactly, is it uniform if a couple guys add patches to that clothing???

?s about organizational structure at that correctional center, I guess.

jmho ymmv lrr

You are not wrong.

Having said that, they still aren't the killers IMO.

 

[Ravenmoon]

His name is Elvis Fields (EF). His name comes up 47 times in the FM. He confessed to his sister and had guilty knowledge of the CS before details were released. But, nothing to see here. Shut down that line of investigation. Why? Good question! MOO
ed:snipped

EF has no car, lived 125 miles from the crime scene, had no details of the crime correct, and has the mental capacity of a 7 year old child.

If he confessed the crime to his sisters, he probably isn't the only one.

Polygraph tests are inadmissible in a court of law.


JMO

 

[mrjitty]

You are not wrong.

Having said that, they still aren't the killers IMO.

Where I am struggling is even if they are odinists what does that have to do with the case?

The defence has completely skipped over establishing any connection beyond affiliation to some religious group

For this to work wouldn’t odinists have to have arranged transfer of RA to the prison so the cult members could go to work on him?

It makes no sense on any level

 

[Ravenmoon]

Where I am struggling is even if they are odinists what does that have to do with the case?

The defence has completely skipped over establishing any connection beyond affiliation to some religious group

For this to work wouldn’t odinists have to have arranged transfer of RA to the prison so the cult members could go to work on him?

It makes no sense on any level

I agree.
I have no idea why the guards are under a microscope.
Having said that, it's enough to get conspiracy theories blowing in every direction.
People love a sinister bad guy.
They prefer satanic panic over the quiet, alcoholic CVS clerk that puts himself right at the scene of the crime.


JMO

 

[EllaMinnowP]

Here’s a hypothetical, sort of:

A guy (EF), who confessed to his sister that he was there and had guilty knowledge, happens to be linked to an Odinist that has a “link” to one of the girls. EF tells his sister he put sticks in AW‘s hair, because she was a “troublemaker.” Now who would put that in his head? Furthermore, the guy EF is linked to has pics on his FB that depict some pretty weird ”stuff”, like the CS. Again, nothing to see there. Then, two guards at Westville guarding the accused RA (not deemed guilty yet), just “happen” to sport Odin patches, and according to another inmate, are abusing RA. What a coincidence!?

So, I look at that and I see a problem. A line of investigation that should have taken them elsewhere didn’t. Again, why? LE rather choose to hone in on RA, who had the misfortune of being at the trails and bridge that day, that came forward to offer some assistance. LE massage the times and witness statements to obtain a SW by omitting crucial material that may have given JD pause in issuing said SW.

Personally, I do have a problem with all of this and I can see the “issue” linking the Odin patch wearing guards. JMHO

Something definitely seems more than a little fishy to me with all of this. It seems many are disregarding EF because of his mental capacity. I don’t understand that. I haven’t seen pictures of this fella that would allow me to guess about his physical capabilities, but I know that mental retardation doesn’t preclude an individual from violent tendencies. Based on a short stint of being employed at a ‘state school’ many moons ago, I can confirm that some have incredible raw physical strength, too. I knew a man who was said to have the mind of a 7 year old whose guardian agreed to have him castrated…

I have also seen some commentary poo-pooing the idea that anyone (or any group) would bring EF to a secret meeting, since they’d know the likelihood of EF blabbing right away. Well, what of that?! It seems he did just that! Even if his sisters took some time to process it, and/or make the connection to what he may have been referring to before notifying LE, it was reported in a timely fashion, imo. IF EF participated in some nefarious activity with a group, then whoever allowed him to join in was either stupid or just counting on nobody believing a word out of EF’s mouth. I really don’t know what to think about who murdered A&L; individual vs individualS.

EF has no car, lived 125 miles from the crime scene, had no details of the crime correct, and has the mental capacity of a 7 year old child.

If he confessed the crime to his sisters, he probably isn't the only one.

Polygraph tests are inadmissible in a court of law.


JMO

RBBM
What do you mean by this, please?

 

[Ravenmoon]

Something definitely seems more than a little fishy to me with all of this. It seems many are disregarding EF because of his mental capacity. I don’t understand that. I haven’t seen pictures of this fella that would allow me to guess about his physical capabilities, but I know that mental retardation doesn’t preclude an individual from violent tendencies. Based on a short stint of being employed at a ‘state school’ many moons ago, I can confirm that some have incredible raw physical strength, too. I knew a man who was said to have the mind of a 7 year old whose guardian agreed to have him castrated…

I have also seen some commentary poo-pooing the idea that anyone (or any group) would bring EF to a secret meeting, since they’d know the likelihood of EF blabbing right away. Well, what of that?! It seems he did just that! Even if his sisters took some time to process it, and/or make the connection to what he may have been referring to before notifying LE, it was reported in a timely fashion, imo. IF EF participated in some nefarious activity with a group, then whoever allowed him to join in was either stupid or just counting on nobody believing a word out of EF’s mouth. I really don’t know what to think about who murdered A&L; individual vs individualS.


RBBM
What do you mean by this, please?

Poorly worded. What I was trying to say is that I know that random people will confess to murders for reasons that I will never understand. I would assume that the same holds true in this case as well.

My guess is that there is nothing that LE has found to link EF to the crime scene.

If people decide that because he made ( allegedly) a confession, wellllll... Richard Allen also confessed 5 or 6 times. And he admits to being at the crime scene, wearing the same clothes as BG.

EF has NO known connection to the bridge or the girls on that day.


JMO

 

[AC4RD]

... And, an independent witness was very clear that his car was gone by the time of the incident. That same witness had a very different description of the man she saw exiting the trail. ...

(rsbm) (mho) (ahem, pardon me for attempting to be precise about this) (i am not a lawyer but dealt with data for 32 years in which precision was needed)

"an independent witness was very clear that his car was gone by the time of the incident."

I believe, personally, that this sentence greatly overstates what we know about that car. My own opinion would be that a witness CLAIMED to see the car gone by the time of the incident--subject to all the human errors possible. (see below)

"His car?" How do we know the car was his? Whose car was it? From everything I've read, we don't actually know who drove the car there, or who drove it away, or who owned it. We don't have agreement on what kind of car it was, much less if it was BG's car.

And as to the certainty of that witness's testimony, I quote:
from Lessons From the Kennedy Assassination About Eyewitness Testimony | Texas Lawyer
------------------
(re JFK Dallas murder): "Yet eyewitnesses to the assassination could not agree on even the most basic details of what happened in plain view in Dealey Plaza. These details include the number of shots fired, the direction from which shots came, and the number of assassins firing shots."
------------------
No offense intended, honestly, but if I'm wrong about any of my criticisms, I'll cheerfully retract them, AND shine your shoes next time we meet. --ken

 

[Jurisprudence]

(rsbm) (mho) (ahem, pardon me for attempting to be precise about this) (i am not a lawyer but dealt with data for 32 years in which precision was needed)

"an independent witness was very clear that his car was gone by the time of the incident."

I believe, personally, that this sentence greatly overstates what we know about that car. My own opinion would be that a witness CLAIMED to see the car gone by the time of the incident--subject to all the human errors possible. (see below)

"His car?" How do we know the car was his? Whose car was it? From everything I've read, we don't actually know who drove the car there, or who drove it away, or who owned it. We don't have agreement on what kind of car it was, much less if it was BG's car.

And as to the certainty of that witness's testimony, I quote:
from Lessons From the Kennedy Assassination About Eyewitness Testimony | Texas Lawyer
------------------
(re JFK Dallas murder): "Yet eyewitnesses to the assassination could not agree on even the most basic details of what happened in plain view in Dealey Plaza. These details include the number of shots fired, the direction from which shots came, and the number of assassins firing shots."
------------------
No offense intended, honestly, but if I'm wrong about any of my criticisms, I'll cheerfully retract them, AND shine your shoes next time we meet. --ken

.. at 2:15 pm when BB passed the old CPS building BB did not see a black Ford Focus parked at the old CPS lot. The car that BB observed as she passed the old CPS building at 2:15 pm looked nothing like a black Ford Focus. According to Liggett’s own report, BB observed one car parked in the CPS lot at 2:15, and that car resembled a “1965 Ford Comet” that her father once owned.

The shape had “sharper angles.” Again, to whom did BB provide this description of a 1965 Ford Comet-looking, angular in appearance vehicle? None other than Liggett himself. Liggett was fully aware that the car that BB described as being backed into a spot at the old CPS building looked nothing like RA’s black Ford Focus…”

FN 164 BB even provided a sketch of the side profile of the car that she observed at the CPS lot at 2:15 pm, featuring the angles that the car possessed. Blair’s sketch of the side profile of the car is attached hereto and marked as Exhibit 113. The sketch definitely looks nothing like the side profile of RA’s Ford Focus. A photo of a Ford Focus similar to the one owned by RA in 2017 is also attached and marked as Exhibit 114. “

[p. 112, 113]

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

“… When asked to describe the color of the car that resembles a 1965 Ford Comet, BB actually told Liggett that the car she saw was NOT BLACK. … Liggett heard from the mouth of BB that the 1965 Ford Comet-looking vehicle was not even black…
Because of BB’s description of the car, she viewed at the old CPS building, evidence supports that RA left at 1:30 pm (as he told Liggett) … At roughly 2:15 pm when returning home, BB observed this car that reminded her of a car her dad had growing up."

[p 114] The reason why she looked, the reason she remembered it, and the reason why she was so certain (in her opinion) That has weight imo.

jmo

 

[AC4RD]

2:15 pm, featuring the angles that the car possessed. Blair’s sketch of the side profile of the car is attached hereto and marked as Exhibit 113. The sketch definitely looks nothing like the side profile of RA’s Ford Focus. A photo of a Ford Focus similar to the one owned by RA in 2017 is also attached and marked as Exhibit 114. “

Very true! (BTW, RSBM) But HOW does that establish ownership, or who drove it there?

 

[Jurisprudence]

Very true! (BTW, RSBM) But HOW does that establish ownership, or who drove it there?

I didn't know RA had a registered vehicle matching the description of the vehicle seen by the witness. Did the PCA indicate there are DMV records showing ownership? I thought the PCA claimed he drove a Ford Focus there but I could be wrong.

jmo

 

[Spartygirl]

“In trying to provide Liggett and Mullin a timeline of when he (Richard Allen) was at the trail, Richard stated he arrived at the trail around noon. Later in the interview, RA told Liggett and Mullin he probably left the trail around 1:30pm.”

-D memo, p. 109, citation 157 & 158. Citation 157: Exhibit 110 RA tells Liggett and prosecutor investigator Mullins from the prosecutor’s office that he had arrived around noon at the 10:57:40 mark. Citation 158: Exhibit 110 at the 11:53:43 mark.

View attachment 463780
Source:

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

Of course RA's clown team is going to change the timeline in this document.

Originally, however, RA himself said he was at the trails and bridge on FEB 13th between 1:30 and 3:30 pm - per RA

Not hard to see his defense team is trying to push this false timeline as most defense attys would...
BUT, It's hard to dispute that other witnesses saw him there, during that time and also what RA, himself, said when admitting he was there during the time of the murders of these 2 innocent teenage girls, LIBBY & ABBY.

""Earlier this week, a judge released a redacted version of the probable cause affidavit recounting the evidence investigators used to arrest Allen. It indicates that Allen was questioned by investigators in 2017, when he told them that he'd been on Monon High Bridge and the Freedom Bridge between 1:30 p.m. and 3:30 p.m. on the day of the murders. That timing matched the window in which the girls died."

'Clerical error' may have delayed Richard Allen's arrest for Delphi murders for years

Why did it take investigators this long to investigate Richard Allen for the murders of two teenage girls in Delphi, Indiana, when they had already interviewed him back in 2017?

www.wdrb.com

 

[Jurisprudence]

(rsbm) (mho) (ahem, pardon me for attempting to be precise about this) (i am not a lawyer but dealt with data for 32 years in which precision was needed)

"an independent witness was very clear that his car was gone by the time of the incident."

I believe, personally, that this sentence greatly overstates what we know about that car. My own opinion would be that a witness CLAIMED to see the car gone by the time of the incident--subject to all the human errors possible. (see below)

"His car?" How do we know the car was his? Whose car was it? From everything I've read, we don't actually know who drove the car there, or who drove it away, or who owned it. We don't have agreement on what kind of car it was, much less if it was BG's car.

And as to the certainty of that witness's testimony, I quote:
from Lessons From the Kennedy Assassination About Eyewitness Testimony | Texas Lawyer
------------------
(re JFK Dallas murder): "Yet eyewitnesses to the assassination could not agree on even the most basic details of what happened in plain view in Dealey Plaza. These details include the number of shots fired, the direction from which shots came, and the number of assassins firing shots."
------------------
No offense intended, honestly, but if I'm wrong about any of my criticisms, I'll cheerfully retract them, AND shine your shoes next time we meet. --ken

I see what you're saying let me explain what I see imo as the difference between generality of this type of testimony, and what happened here.

Decades ago (literally) when I was a first year law student and entered my criminal law class on the first day of that class, the professor walked in, the lecture hall fell silent. Moments later the professor's secretary walked in to hand over some materials. The professor exploded in a tirade of anger toward this secretary. Yelling and screaming and carrying on. When the secretary eventually left - and I remember this as if it were yesterday (this is how profound an impact it had on me) - the professor turned to us 100+ then-law students and said (paraphrasing):

"Welcome to Criminal Law. I am Professor X. Take out a piece of paper and write down everything you can remember about the person who was just here - as detailed a description as you can recall." Before the professor chose people to read what they thought they saw we were advised that "our first lesson is the reliability of eyewitness testimony."

The person was a woman - some had her as a man. The hair color was wrong by nearly everyone. The woman was several months pregnant and not a single person called upon noted this.

The difference between this example and the eyewitness account of BB imo is obvious. In our situation we were in shock. We couldn't believe our professor was doing this. I think every person was thinking this class was going to brutal and abusive. Everyone stunned as they were, had been focused on the professor, and the professor's actions.

BB had none of these external forces entering into what she witnessed and, more importantly, when she witnessed it. She had no idea of what was to come.

All jmo

 

[Ravenmoon]

Just a couple of points to consider:

The exD says that someone saw a man walking along the highway that was muddy in a tan jacket.

Let's assume that is what was said.
Take a look at BG on the video. He is wearing a brown jacket underneath the blue one.
Is it not a possibility that is the jacket she saw!

OR

That the mud made the blue jacket appear to be tan?
JMO

 

[Willow Knight]

IMO his claim to leave by 1.30 is incriminating rather than exculpatory

We know when he saw the 3 girls he was arriving not leaving and the time was approx 1.30. (Digital Time stamp of Photo per AA)

So unless he saw a different group of girls this is bad for him.

02c

This is so important. IMO When he ARRIVED 3 girls saw HIM, in my opinion. The three girls are not saying they saw a sketch, they are saying they saw him, IMO. The time the girls saw him was backed up by the time stamp of the photo the girls took minutes before the encounter.

If a person were to follow the alleged walk on the path RA took, he should have passed other witnesses on that path. I believe another witness saw RA shortly after the three girls saw him. I also believe this other witness passed/saw Libby and Abby.

I believe Libby took a snap shot and recorded the person that abducted Libby and Abby.

To me there is plenty of evidence to charge RA and take him to trial. Throwing shade at Odinite guards to move focus from RA is pathetic.

The X-D should think about moving their practice to West Memphis. Can one imagine?

P: It was devil worshippers
D: It was evil pagans

 

[Ravenmoon]

This is so important. IMO When he ARRIVED 3 girls saw HIM, in my opinion. The three girls are not saying they saw a sketch, they are saying they saw him, IMO. The time the girls saw him was backed up by the time stamp of the photo the girls took minutes before the encounter.

If a person were to follow the alleged walk on the path RA took, he should have passed other witnesses on that path. I believe another witness saw RA shortly after the three girls saw him. I also believe this other witness passed/saw Libby and Abby.

I believe Libby took a snap shot and recorded the person that abducted Libby and Abby.

To me there is plenty of evidence to charge RA and take him to trial. Throwing shade at Odinite guards to move focus from RA is pathetic.

The X-D should think about moving their practice to West Memphis. Can one imagine?

P: It was devil worshippers
D: It was evil pagans

I agree with all of this!

One of the 3 girls described what RA was wearing. She said something to the affect that he was walking with a purpose, head down, hands in pockets.

RA says basically the same thing. It matches what she has said.

Both descriptions match the man that LG recorded on her phone.


Hmmmmmmmmm

JMO

 

[Megnut]

I'm not certain that the defense hasn't purposely conflated, juxtaposed witnesses and recall, but I do question it.

I do question witness recall. What they remember, what they get right, what they get wrong -- that's all real.

But there is room for other players. We don't know that RA arrived alone. Or that he drive that car or a car or which car. His car may have been moved. Maybe an accomplice offroaded it, driving it over hill and dale, closer to the crime scene. Maybe it was loaded with cameras, tripods and sticks. Maybe the acccomplice drove a vintage car, parked in the same lot, where it was seen.

There are moving parts. Witnesses might be remembering more accurately then we realize....

Maybe RA had help from someone he has reason not to implicate...

Jmo

 

[Ravenmoon]

"'Both officers signed affidavits admitting they wore patches that could be associated with Odinism but were not."

They are not Odinists.

Prosecutors disputing defense attorneys' claims Delphi homicide suspect Richard Allen being mistreated in state custody

Allen's defense attorneys are asking the judge to quash a subpoena for Allen's medical records.

www.wlfi.com

@Ward Thisperer
@FrostedGlass

Not sure why this is funny but okay.
Do you have proof that the guards, are in fact, Odinists?

Have neither of you ever worn or dawned symbols that don't or didn't define you??

Peace signs don't mean that someone is a hippie.
Wearing an ankh doesn't make someone a pharaoh.

Wearing a crucifix doesn't make someone a Catholic.

Wearing black doesn't make someone a witch.

Wearing a reindeer shirt doesn't make someone Santa Claus.

But...... Odinists!!! Only Odinists wear patches that are heathen.

Hahaha

EBM sp


JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

@Ward Thisperer
@FrostedGlass

Not sure why this is funny but okay.
Do you have proof that the guards, are in fact, Odinists?

Have neither of you ever worn or dawned symbols that don't or didn't define you??

Peace signs don't mean that someone is a hippie.
Wearing an ankh doesn't make someone a pharaoh.

Wearing a crucifix doesn't make someone a Catholic.

Wearing black doesn't make someone a witch.

Wearing a reindeer shirt doesn't make someone Santa Claus.

But...... Odinists!!! Only Odinists wear patches that are heathen.

Hahaha

EBM sp


JMO

Ok, I'll play.

I can say I have never gone out, bought a patch and sewed it on my clothing unless it was something I was involved in or supported.

I probably have worn a t-shirt with a peace sign on it; I supported peace; I'm definitely not a warmonger.
I've worn trendy jewelry; I'm note sure if I had an ankh.

Most of the other things you listed are pretty hahaha.
I'm not hung up on the word "heathen."

Now, why do you suppose they wore the patches on their prison uniforms?