IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[Jurisprudence]

What if an investigative reporter published a piece on how the prison guards at Westville prison in IN were allowed to wear patches that contained symbols which could be interpreted as something to do with white supremacy groups? A lot of folks would find that totally inappropriate on a prison uniform, regardless if the wearer was a white supremacist or not. It's a detail that also inspires questions about the warden and his operating standards. Jmo.

FM 46-47, FN 13

And what if a piece was published about how a judge was not releasing public documents or following due process accordingly, whether intentional or not?

That's sworn original action 1 supported by JG's release of prosecution state docs dump only without corresponding defense docs on June 28, 2023, primarily making public aware of only one side of this case

State of Indiana v. Richard M. Allen | Allen Superior Court

allensuperiorcourt.us

Delphi Documents Released

Documents were unsealed allowing a first-time look into details surrounding the Delphi murders of Abby Williams and Libby German. Open to read all of the documents released on June 28, 2023.

fox59.com

What if there was a piece on how LE officers were omitting witness statements and other evidence to get search warrants?

That's sworn memorandum in support of FM

These things might not be factual in this case, it's still being decided. It's frustrating that L & A's case has been dragged through so many facets of the system, but maybe the high-profile nature of this case is bringing things to light that really should have been long ago. At least some of us in the public have a better understanding now of procedures that are supposed to be in place to protect us. The ex-D walked through doors already left open by the state, imo.

Q: What if all of these things happened and more?
A: JG should have held a hearing and/or ruled (on pleadings) on each one after both sides presented evidence and those defense filings should have been part of the public records disclosed from the start.

jmo

 

[Willow Knight]

Do we know for certain that when RA thought he was being helpful and said he saw the girls on the trail that he was not confusing them with these other girls? I know there is a difference in number (3 vs 2) but I am curious because there is no evidence that we know of indicating that he knew who A&L were. According to the pca, RA stated back in 2017 that he saw 3 girls.

mo

I'm not certain I understand your question? My post did not address who/what RA saw. My post referenced three girls as they were leaving and RA was arriving.

The girls had minutes prior just taken a snap shot, which gives a timeline. The girls state they saw him arriving at app 1:30.

 

[Jurisprudence]

Poorly worded. What I was trying to say is that I know that random people will confess to murders for reasons that I will never understand. I would assume that the same holds true in this case as well.

sbm

Difference between EF and a rando who might confess to a crime he or she wasn't involved in, didn't witness, and had no knowledge of, is that EF spilled details of this immediately and disclosed to his sisters unknown info on the cs that only someone who was present would know. jmo

FM, p. 15:

"Unified Command was aware that EF confessed to his sister that he (E) was involved in the murders, even providing to his sister intimate crime scene details of which only those present at the crime scene would have familiarity. Additionally, EF told his sister M, on February 14, 2017, that he was present at the killings and that he (E) now had “a brother” and was now part of “a gang.”

... E turned around, walked back to the police car and (according to the police report) asked the state trooper if his (E’s) spit is found on one of the girls, but he could explain it away, would he still be in trouble. The state trooper that heard E utter these words (Kevin Murphy) was not part of Unified command but immediately relayed E’s disturbing question to Jay Harper of Unified Command. E also admitted to a different sister (J) that he had in fact spit on one of the girls. E told J, that he (E) was on a trail and a bridge with two girls that were killed and that he was going away for a long time ...

[p. 16] "... on February 1, 2018, E’s sister passed a polygraph examination when asked if she were telling the truth about what E had confessed to her."

 

[Jurisprudence]

I'm not certain I understand your question? My post did not address who/what RA saw. My post referenced three girls as they were leaving and RA was arriving.

The girls had minutes prior just taken a snap shot, which gives a timeline. The girls state they saw him arriving at app 1:30.

I apologize if I misread that thread between you and a few members I thought it revolved around the fact that the 3 girls witnessed him on the trail therefore, he's the guy.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Here’s a hypothetical, sort of:

A guy (EF), who confessed to his sister that he was there and had guilty knowledge, happens to be linked to an Odinist that has a “link” to one of the girls. EF tells his sister he put sticks in AW‘s hair, because she was a “troublemaker.” Now who would put that in his head? Furthermore, the guy EF is linked to has pics on his FB that depict some pretty weird ”stuff”, like the CS. Again, nothing to see there. Then, two guards at Westville guarding the accused RA (not deemed guilty yet), just “happen” to sport Odin patches, and according to another inmate, are abusing RA. What a coincidence!?

So, I look at that and I see a problem. A line of investigation that should have taken them elsewhere didn’t. Again, why? LE rather choose to hone in on RA, who had the misfortune of being at the trails and bridge that day, that came forward to offer some assistance. LE massage the times and witness statements to obtain a SW by omitting crucial material that may have given JD pause in issuing said SW.

Personally, I do have a problem with all of this and I can see the “issue” linking the Odin patch wearing guards.
JMHO

ETA: I believe the people who actually did this would like to see RA take his own life. Why? (Lots of why in my mind). Because then, it all goes away. No more investigations, no more FM. Clean getaway. R & B uncovered what they didn’t want uncovered. Too many connections that they do not want revealed. Again, JMHO

There is absolutely no indication that LE did not perfectly and thoroughly investigate any possible Odinist connection, except the ex-defense jumping up and down and screaming that they didn’t.
Over and over and over in the Frank’s memo they shout about this, but there is zero proof of it. As in most everything else in that memo they are feeding the public only the things that support their fantasy. It is one sided, why would anyone just take their word for it instead on waiting to hear both side, under oath and cross-examination at trial.
I do not necessarily believe LE did a perfect investigation, but I certainly don’t believe the ex-defenses’ version.

 

[susiQ]

There is absolutely no indication that LE did not perfectly and thoroughly investigate any possible Odinist connection, except the ex-defense jumping up and down and screaming that they didn’t.
Over and over and over in the Frank’s memo they shout about this, but there is zero proof of it. As in most everything else in that memo they are feeding the public only the things that support their fantasy. It is one sided, why would anyone just take their word for it instead on waiting to hear both side, under oath and cross-examination at trial.
I do not necessarily believe LE did a perfect investigation, but I certainly don’t believe the ex-defenses’ version.

RBBM
The first statement (BBM), appears to contradict the latter statement (BBM). JMO
You say the D’s version is one-sided. True. So is the P’s. JMO

 

[Jurisprudence]

There is absolutely no indication that LE did not perfectly and thoroughly investigate any possible Odinist connection, except the ex-defense jumping up and down and screaming that they didn’t.
Over and over and over in the Frank’s memo they shout about this, but there is zero proof of it.

[sbm]

This statement is not accurate imo. There's Trooper Purdy's deposition, pin cited to page and line. [FN 61 Purdy depo. p. 28, lines 10-19].

 

[TheVisual]

Other problems with that pca include the exclusion/omission of potentially exculpatory information which if presented probably would have prevented the warrant from issuing. This includes, among other things RA's statement to Liggett that he probably left around 1:30, as opposed to DD later stating he was there until 3:30; and BB's eyewitness testimony.

jmo

Wasn't Derrick there about 3:30? Wouldn't he have seen BG? We haven't heard a peep from him.

 

[Boxer]

Exactly, Odinist schmodinist. The SW is going to be found valid, as it should be IMO. RA and DT are going to have a heck of a time once it is revealed what was actually recovered and the true test results instead of the insinuations and spin by the exD.

I think there is some sort of trophy that connects RA to the scene personally.

P.S. - OT I'm sick to see Pistorius being released in January.

MOO

Agree, the Schmodinists and the one man with dexterity.

 

[steeltowngirl]

sbm

Difference between EF and a rando who might confess to a crime he or she wasn't involved in, didn't witness, and had no knowledge of, is that EF spilled details of this immediately and disclosed to his sisters unknown info on the cs that only someone who was present would know. jmo

FM, p. 15:

"Unified Command was aware that EF confessed to his sister that he (E) was involved in the murders, even providing to his sister intimate crime scene details of which only those present at the crime scene would have familiarity. Additionally, EF told his sister M, on February 14, 2017, that he was present at the killings and that he (E) now had “a brother” and was now part of “a gang.”

... E turned around, walked back to the police car and (according to the police report) asked the state trooper if his (E’s) spit is found on one of the girls, but he could explain it away, would he still be in trouble. The state trooper that heard E utter these words (Kevin Murphy) was not part of Unified command but immediately relayed E’s disturbing question to Jay Harper of Unified Command. E also admitted to a different sister (J) that he had in fact spit on one of the girls. E told J, that he (E) was on a trail and a bridge with two girls that were killed and that he was going away for a long time ...

[p. 16] "... on February 1, 2018, E’s sister passed a polygraph examination when asked if she were telling the truth about what E had confessed to her."

Let’s assume for a moment that EF’s involvement as stated above is all true.

How does that provide reasonable doubt that RA is BG?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

RBBM
The first statement (BBM), appears to contradict the latter statement (BBM). JMO
You say the D’s version is one-sided. True. So is the P’s. JMO

Since RA’s arrest, how many statements or documents or court motions(that were not responses to defense motions), have been released by the prosecutions.
But forget that, the main thing is it’s all adversarial, for the purpose of trying the case in court, not out in public.

 

[Jurisprudence]

There were people on the trail who arrived at or around that time, so agree @TheVisual. Reports stated that “between 3:30 and 5:30 when family showed up to get them they were nowhere to be found. Family began canvasing the area for L&A but could not locate them.”

DELPHI TIMELINE: The search for Libby & Abby's killer

On February 13, 2017, Liberty "Libby" German and Abigail "Abby" Williams went for a hike near the Monon High Bridge in Delphi. Here's a look at what has happened since that day.

www.wrtv.com

The pca appears to get around this potential problem that no one saw him by attributing it "to him being in the woods."

“Investigators believe Richard Allen was not seen on the trail after 2:13pm. Because he was in the woods with Victim 1 and Victim 2.” [pca p. 7]

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

 

[steeltowngirl]

Wasn't Derrick there about 3:30? Wouldn't he have seen BG? We haven't heard a peep from him.

From 2019:

On July 9, Kelsi German took to YouTube to directly address and dispel any such gossip with a live-streaming session.

Kelsi, who is minoring in forensics at Ball State, said the police are doing a great job and she’s always willing to share any and all information they’ve given her about the case.

Some observers have allegedly griped that Derrick German, Libby and Kelsi’s dad, should be more forthcoming. Addressing those critics, Kelsi said, “They will change our words. They twist our words all the time, and he doesn't want you guys to do that, so he just chooses not to speak…. To go along with that, there is a rumor that Libby actually called him at 2:30 to ask him to pick them up, which our phone records show that's not true.”

Sister Of Delphi Murder Victim Libby German Streams Live On YouTube To 'Debunk Rumors'

Kelsi German addressed speculation regarding the 2017 “Delphi Snapchat Murders” of her sister, Liberty German, and Abigail Williams.

www.investigationdiscovery.com

 

[susiQ]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

@steeltowngirl
Not OP but let me take an unprofessional “stab at it.” Your question is, “How might EF’s involvement serve to exonerate RA?” His involvement alone, does not exonerate RA. However, the totality of the discovery raises serious questions. EF, by his own admission to his two sisters, appears to have been, at bare minimum, present at the CS. He admits to “spitting” on AW. It would follow that if this is true, that LE and by extension the P, would have to show that there is a link between EF and RA.

The fact that the investigation into EF was dropped, is nonsensical to me. He had guilty knowledge of the CS. How, or better, why, would one do that? I certainly cannot come up with a reasonable explanation.

For me, the discovery is very concerning. The lack of necessary investigation into EF and his “friends” is in my opinion negligent at best. But I suspect far worse. JMHO

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

Before RA was arrested, I posted numerous times why I felt there was no evidence that KAK and TK were involved in the murders. I was baffled at the unpleasant responses and implications that I was somehow a KAK defender and didn't care about justice for the victims. In another thread, someone even suggested that I put money in a defendant's commissary account.

If one was so (incorrectly) convinced that the prior "suspects" were definitely the killers, how not to see you are looking at the evidence without impartiality?

Some of us who have experience in the courts come from a point of view of seeing what might threaten the ultimate goal of justice.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Not OP but let me take an unprofessional “stab at it.” Your question is, “How might EF’s involvement serve to exonerate RA?” His involvement alone, does not exonerate RA. However, the totality of the discovery raises serious questions. EF, by his own admission to his two sisters, appears to have been, at bare minimum, present at the CS. He admits to “spitting” on AW. It would follow that if this is true, that LE and by extension the P, would have to show that there is a link between EF and RA.

The fact that the investigation into EF was dropped, is nonsensical to me. He had guilty knowledge of the CS. How, or better, why, would one do that? I certainly cannot come up with a reasonable explanation.

For me, the discovery is very concerning. The lack of necessary investigation into EF and his “friends” is in my opinion negligent at best. But I suspect far worse. JMHO

You raise good points @susiQ. I appreciate the peaceful response.

The discovery is concerning. Gull’s handling of the defense is questionable, and rightfully so, is under scrutiny. It’s also not surprising to me, and not unusual for defense to attack prosecution. Look at the Morphew case, where the prosecutor was called out and eventually had to drop charges.

Perhaps EF or others are involved. Prosecution has already told us they believe others are involved. I am not convinced that LE did not explore the Odin crew, perhaps for different reasons than the memorandum described. I personally have had extensive notes about the BH crowd from long before RA’s arrest. If I had them on my POI list, with basically the same information in the memorandum, it would make sense to me that LE was all over it.

jmo

 

[Ravenmoon]

Not OP but let me take an unprofessional “stab at it.” Your question is, “How might EF’s involvement serve to exonerate RA?” His involvement alone, does not exonerate RA. However, the totality of the discovery raises serious questions. EF, by his own admission to his two sisters, appears to have been, at bare minimum, present at the CS. He admits to “spitting” on AW. It would follow that if this is true, that LE and by extension the P, would have to show that there is a link between EF and RA.

The fact that the investigation into EF was dropped, is nonsensical to me. He had guilty knowledge of the CS. How, or better, why, would one do that? I certainly cannot come up with a reasonable explanation.

For me, the discovery is very concerning. The lack of necessary investigation into EF and his “friends” is in my opinion negligent at best. But I suspect far worse. JMHO

What details did EF have?
How did he get there ( to the crime scene?)

How did he get home?

Why wasn't his DNA found at the CS?

Has EF got a record of spinning tall tales for attention?

I really don't believe that this person ( EF) has any involvement.

I have not seen one shred of evidence that he knew anything about the crime scene.


JMO

 

[Jurisprudence]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

Before RA was arrested, I posted numerous times why I felt there was no evidence that KAK and TK were involved in the murders. I was baffled at the unpleasant responses and implications that I was somehow a KAK defender and didn't care about justice for the victims. In another thread, someone even suggested that I put money in a defendant's commissary account.

If one was so (incorrectly) convinced that the prior "suspects" were definitely the killers, how not to see you are looking at the evidence without impartiality?

Some of us who have experience in the courts come from a point of view of seeing what might threaten the ultimate goal of justice.

Perfect post. I completely agree.

 

[susiQ]

I personally have had extensive notes about the BH crowd from long before RA’s arrest. If I had them on my POI list, with basically the same information in the memorandum, it would make sense to me that LE was all over it.

jmo

RSABBM
But that is exactly the point. Unified command was not all over it. They pretty much shut down that line of investigation, or they tried. Certain individual investigators revisited the Rushville connection but were stymied. That’s where the issue lies for me. Trust your notes. All the D did was trust the discovery.

I find it difficult to understand why some can’t appreciate that these two defence attorneys may really believe their client is innocent. Innocent people have been convicted on trumped up charges before. Thankfully, it’s not the norm.

There are those that would have us believe that we aren’t smart enough to ask the difficult questions and have us question our own ability to think things through and want us to just accept whatever we’re fed. We do ourselves no favours if we do that. JMO

 

[Jurisprudence]

What details did EF have?
How did he get there ( to the crime scene?)

How did he get home?

Why wasn't his DNA found at the CS?

Has EF got a record of spinning tall tales for attention?

I really don't believe that this person ( EF) has any involvement.

I have not seen one shred of evidence that he knew anything about the crime scene.


JMO

DNA was found at the scene

https://fox59.com/news/dna-evidence-recovered-in-delp-murder-investigation/

ETA: It was LG's [FM p 30] Not sure if the the DNA referred to in the reporting is the same or different