IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #173

[arielilane]

Attorneys RS & LS: Noted on first page of motion to transfer:

it is counsel's belief that 1) Mr. Allen is not being treated similar to other pre-trial detainees being held in county jails, and 2) pre-trial incarceration at Wabash Valley Correctional Facility will seriously,
if not fatally, impact counsel's ability to effectively represent Mr. Allen due to the distance of
travel and visitation conditions.

No link, as source is not approved. moo

 

[arielilane]

Same question, different day: When is justice coming for Abby & Libby?

 

[schooling]

Which, is absurd! Why insist that counsel sit 6 feet away? Is there some as yet unpublicized indication that RA is a danger to himself or to his counsel??

Yes. For the same reasons they won’t give him bail or house arrest. He is a risk. He is a danger. IMO To those directly around him and society at large.

He’s been indicted and charged with some pretty serious crimes. The murder of two children.

And I recognize that “innocent until proven guilty” is a corner stone of the justice system. But this is how every inmate awaiting trial and facing charges of this nature are treated. Tens of thousands before him. Tens of thousands after him.

I don’t think we’re going to change things just for RA. No matter how frail and depressed he presents.

MOO

 

[tlcya]

I share your annoyance with this egregious error in spelling of Hannibal!! I also did wonder if it was wise to compare RA's confinement to that of this particular character who was known as a cannibal! It did make me wonder if we're just not yet aware of some concerns around self harm or a risk of harm to his counsel or others? I wonder if we'll get a response filing from the prosecution that outlines why these measures were taken / are necessary?

I agree, I hope the prosecution has some sort of evidence as to why RA continues to be considered a prisoner that should be housed in such a manner.

Having now read the motion, the tattooed guard seems a rather dramatic flourish meant to suggest that the previous defense team's Franks Motion has some sort of probative value. As to the Lecter reference, I think that is regrettable as it could backfire and create the impression to the potential jury pool that RA is a dangerous scary man.

The meat of the motion IMO is in the distance from client, the inability to effectively meet and discuss his case, and RA's current housing substantially interfering with his ability to participate in his own defense.

I think they should have stuck with that and left the odinist fantasy stuff from previous counsel out. RA's inability to effectively participate in his own defense could be considered fatal and I was fond of that particular flourish.

 

[Emma Peel]

Frankly, I wish the judge would order him moved. Not because I buy the Odinists are after him crock of crap, but because I believe he has a need for adequate counsel and this has become a bigger deal than it needs to be, such that we are losing sight of the trees for the forest as it were.

Just move the guy closer to his counsel in a facility better suited to him being able to meet with counsel and participate in his own defense. H*ll, I'd have no objection to him being moved back to county jail.

I have to admit, I don't get the judge's thinking in not simply moving RA.

BBM
Thank you.
I'm thinking the judge's thinking is colored by something other than Old D's testimony as to RA's prison conditions.

Judge Gull created the record that she has no faith in Old D, found them as exaggerating if not lying on this "prison condition" issue - and cites the Old D's as exaggeration if not lies - that their prison arguments, and objected to Old D's related filing against the prison - on her list of Old D gross negligence/incompetence.

Today, here comes New D ... offers descriptive testimony and a 2nd opinion in robust support of Old D's previous motion, previous representations re: prison condition, previous descriptions - reiterating Old D's arguments and findings and urgency to transfer RA to county jail for holding.

Now go wider. This New D motion is made in the shadow of the SCOIN Writ #2, where there's at least 2 motions from RA to remove Gull due to bias towards him and his chosen defense team.

Ironically and retrospectively, (and without putting the question of judicial bias in the motion) New D's motion highlights Judge Gull's (possible) bias against the Old D and how that bias colors her decisions, including her views on RA's prison holding conditions.

IMO, given the larger environment, here New D has put the question of Gull's bias in play (without saying the word)... as a strategy and a lever to get RA better holding conditions.

Smart move on New D as they step in to vigorously advocate and defend their client (their job).

JMHO

 

[Jade]

Defense references horror films but ignorantly blind that in Silence of the Lambs HL is a RA type: small, sleek, fits in, intellect, interests, unlike the hulking, slobbering monster of a killer portrayal previous in horror films.

How better could they introduce the concept that hideous killers are small, quiet, sociable not the monsters we are looking for it’s the guy you see at the store, socializing, a neighbor you would never suspect.

The attorneys overate RA comparing him to HL.


all imo

 

[TL4S]

Now go wider. This New D motion is made in the shadow of the SCOIN Writ #2, where there's at least 2 motions from RA to remove Gull due to bias towards him and his chosen defense team.

Ironically and retrospectively, (and without putting the question of judicial bias in the motion) New D's motion highlights Judge Gull's (possible) bias against the Old D and how that bias colors her decisions, including her views on RA's prison holding conditions.

JMHO

RSBM. I also think it's about the larger view. However, I don't think, in regards to Judge G's alleged bias, that this motion is even allowed to influence the SCOIN hearing on the 18th, because in my understanding, nothing new since the original writ can be discussed there. I might have that wrong, IANAL, JMO and all that.

My other thought goes back to the AG moving RA from Westville to Wabash under:

Indiana Code 35-33-11-1 - alleging that an inmate in a county jail awaiting trial is in danger of serious bodily injury or death or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others, the court shall determine whether the inmate is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others.  If the court finds that the inmate is in danger of serious bodily injury or death or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others, it shall order the sheriff to transfer the inmate to another county jail or to a facility of the department of correction designated by the commissioner of the department as suitable for the confinement of that prisoner and provided that space is available.  For the purpose of this chapter, an inmate is not considered in danger of serious bodily injury or death due to an illness or other medical condition. https://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-35-criminal-law-and-procedure/in-code-sect-35-33-11-1/

What is the threat here? Is it coming from other inmates, who he's supposed to be segregated from? Himself, which put him under suicide watch at Westville? The guards? It isn't just two sets of defense attorneys saying there's a possible threat, but also the AG, so why? Location to his counsel cannot be the only issue, because the AG moved him even farther away. I'm not ready to make assumptions on any of it. I'm going to wait and see how this plays out. Fascinating.

 

[tlcya]

BBM
Thank you.
I'm thinking the judge's thinking is colored by something other than Old D's testimony as to RA's prison conditions.

Judge Gull created the record that she has no faith in Old D, found them as exaggerating if not lying on this "prison condition" issue - and cites the Old D's as exaggeration if not lies - that their prison arguments, and objected to Old D's related filing against the prison - on her list of Old D gross negligence/incompetence.

Today, here comes New D ... offers descriptive testimony and a 2nd opinion in robust support of Old D's previous motion, previous representations re: prison condition, previous descriptions - reiterating Old D's arguments and findings and urgency to transfer RA to county jail for holding.

Now go wider. This New D motion is made in the shadow of the SCOIN Writ #2, where there's at least 2 motions from RA to remove Gull due to bias towards him and his chosen defense team.

Ironically and retrospectively, (and without putting the question of judicial bias in the motion) New D's motion highlights Judge Gull's (possible) bias against the Old D and how that bias colors her decisions, including her views on RA's prison holding conditions.

IMO, given the larger environment, here New D has put the question of Gull's bias in play (without saying the word)... as a strategy and a lever to get RA better holding conditions.

Smart move on New D as they step in to vigorously advocate and defend their client (their job).

JMHO

re the BBM - good point. Further, I haven't really understood Judge Gull's reticence to house RA elsewhere. She wasn't even the judge who ruled RA should be moved there to begin with. It was her predecessor, who then immediately recused himself. This could indeed create the impression she dug her heals in on this topic simply because she has a bias against previous counsel. Not saying she does, but it could present the appearance of such.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

One can laugh, sneer and roll their eyes but the fact remains the CS appears to be related to Odinism.

From the WISHTV.com link from above:

View attachment 474140

I’m certainly not laughing or sneering.
Probably guilty of eye rolling.
A lot of exasperated sighing.
Restraining myself from running screaming around the house yelling.
Still a good ways away from banging my head against the wall, though that may be coming next week.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Just my thoughts, but I think the new attorneys are whining, just like the first team, about the distance RA is from them. It is an inconvenience to them because Indiana apparently doesn’t have a prison in the neighborhoods where they live or one on every street corner.
But what a great opportunity to add some Odinist talk in a motion whose main purpose has nothing to do with pagans. That strategy sounds familiar unfortunately.

 

[photographer4]

Yes. For the same reasons they won’t give him bail or house arrest. He is a risk. He is a danger. IMO To those directly around him and society at large.

He’s been indicted and charged with some pretty serious crimes. The murder of two children.

And I recognize that “innocent until proven guilty” is a corner stone of the justice system. But this is how every inmate awaiting trial and facing charges of this nature are treated. Tens of thousands before him. Tens of thousands after him.

I don’t think we’re going to change things just for RA. No matter how frail and depressed he presents.

MOO

So you're saying every inmate is treated the same - they're all in a cell to visit their counsel that has only a food slot opening, and that other inmates must meet with counsel who are sat six feet away? Because the lawyer who drafted the motion noted that he has not experienced this before in his several decades long career - and seems quite excessive to me, especially without context.

 

[photographer4]

Defense references horror films but ignorantly blind that in Silence of the Lambs HL is a RA type: small, sleek, fits in, intellect, interests, unlike the hulking, slobbering monster of a killer portrayal previous in horror films.

How better could they introduce the concept that hideous killers are small, quiet, sociable not the monsters we are looking for it’s the guy you see at the store, socializing, a neighbor you would never suspect.

The attorneys overate RA comparing him to HL.


all imo

I don't think they're comparing RA to HL from the book so much as the condition in which he is kept - the cell and the shackles. It certainly calls an image to mind about how he appeared to counsel and is easy for anyone else to imagine. Why such security measures unless he is a serious danger to himself, the guards or his counsel? Is there a history since his incarceration that suggests these measures are necessary? Or are they just extraordinary measures being used to intimidate and silence RA?

 

[TL4S]

So you're saying every inmate is treated the same - they're all in a cell to visit their counsel that has only a food slot opening, and that other inmates must meet with counsel who are sat six feet away? Because the lawyer who drafted the motion noted that he has not experienced this before in his several decades long career - and seems quite excessive to me, especially without context.

I'm very concerned that there will be some valid 6th amendment rights appeals in this case, if he's found guilty. JMO.

 

[Megnut]

I'm very concerned that there will be some valid 6th amendment rights appeals in this case, if he's found guilty. JMO.

But also imagine if something bad happens to him while in custody. They have a duty of care to keep him alive, a monumental challenge if there's legitimate threat, whether the risk is from himself or other inmates.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

But also imagine if something bad happens to him while in custody. They have a duty of care to keep him alive, a monumental challenge if there's legitimate threat, whether the risk is from himself or other inmates.

JMO

There is an understandable need to protect him, but imagine if he is guilty of these murders and it gets overturned on appeals because of the way the court handled things. It's kind of a catch-22, but I think the situation needs to be addressed right away.

 

[Emma Peel]

I'm very concerned that there will be some valid 6th amendment rights appeals in this case, if he's found guilty. JMO.

Indeed.

Along the same vein ... There's a habeus corpus expert interview/discussion (Murder Sheet episode) where the expert postulates that RA has several more appeals ahead pre-trial - with next possible appeal (after next week's hearing/decision at SCOIN) being a habeus corpus interlocutary appeal.

 

[Emma Peel]

There is an understandable need to protect him, but imagine if he is guilty of these murders and it gets overturned on appeals because of the way the court handled things. It's kind of a catch-22, but I think the situation needs to be addressed right away.

This is why Gull's actions are so very frustrating.
Appeal of a guilty verdict for this case is baked in, IMO.

I am concerned that the likelihood of RA winning such an appeal increases with (e.g.) each time Gull conducts exparte discussions w/ prosecution and/or goes to Prosecution for guidance or asks Prosecution the State's opinion on removing RA's Defense Counsel and/or turns blind eye and extends RA's prison holding conditions, 5 hours from his counsel, blocking his right of privacy w/ his counsel - etc, etc...

New D's description that "conditions render an effective defense fatal" (possibly) sets up the appeal.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Defense attorney Bob Motta snagged the affidavit of the motion to transfer. We need a copy here.
Can he be confirmed as a credible source?

 

[twall]

There is a link to motion here but I cannot find an approved link to the affidavit but the motion repeats a lot of it.

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen requesting to move prisons again

In their motion, Richard Allen's attorney say they've never 'had to conduct an in-custody legal consolation in this fashion.'

www.courttv.com

https://storage.googleapis.com/www-courttv-uploads/2024/01/7f873515-motion-to-transfer-allenpdf.pdf

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Yes. For the same reasons they won’t give him bail or house arrest. He is a risk. He is a danger. IMO To those directly around him and society at large.

He’s been indicted and charged with some pretty serious crimes. The murder of two children.

And I recognize that “innocent until proven guilty” is a corner stone of the justice system. But this is how every inmate awaiting trial and facing charges of this nature are treated. Tens of thousands before him. Tens of thousands after him.

I don’t think we’re going to change things just for RA. No matter how frail and depressed he presents.

MOO

The Pike County murderers (the Wagner's) didn't get the memo then, as they have been housed in County jails since they were arrested in 2018. Only one is in a prison after being found guilty.

OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered - 4 Wagner Family Members Arrested #88

PIKE COUNTY, Ohio — A town woke up one morning to the horror that eight people were brutally killed. The Rhoden family suffered an unthinkable loss eight times over on one late April night in 2016. And years would go by before an arrest was made, and the massacre of an entire family still...

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