IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[Emma Peel]

In this discussion with The Prosecutors, Bob Motta says “the word on the street” is to expect the SCOIN opinion within 2 weeks.

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It’s also interesting to hear a group of attorneys discuss the demand for a speedy trial. While DD believes the speedy trial demand was genuine they admit that the 136 motion is somewhat inconsistent with wanting to issue the speedy trial demand. But at the same time I don’t know that they would have thought when they got that signed in August with the plan to issue it in early November to lock in the trial date that they would still be waiting for the hearing.

I wonder what the next steps for B&R will be.
Will they file another motion for JG to recuse herself?
Will they file a request for an interlocutory appeal (which JG would need to certify)?
Will they argue that she shouldn’t have issued those decisions that she just issued because now that they have been put back on the case the motion for recusal that they filed in October needs to be ruled upon before anything else?
Will they issue the speedy trial demand to just try to get this in front of a jury rather than mess around with JG any longer?
Will they wait until we have the opinion to take any action?

Bob Motta and Shay Hughes discussing the orders from JG - DENIED! Judge Gull denies all of Rick Allen's pending motions!
Shay Hughes argues that JG doesn't cite the correct standard for a SW.
JG: "The Court finds the Affidavit submitted in support of the issuance of the search warrant contained information that a reasonable belief existed that evidence of the murders would be found in the defendant's home and vehicles. The Court does not find that the Affidavit submitted false statements or that the Affiant omitted statements with reckless disregard, nor does the Court find that the Affiant intended to mislead the Judge by failing to present information."
Standard for SW: "Probable cause: The officer should give reasonable information to support the possibility that the evidence of illegality will be found. Such information may come from the officer’ personal observations or that of an informant. If the warrant lacks accurate information as to what will be searched, the search is unlawful."

search warrant

www.law.cornell.edu

above BBM.

SH argues that "reasonable belief" =/= "reasonable information".

They also bring up that JG doesn't cite any case law around her decision. She invokes case law, but doesn't bother actually citing any cases.
JG: "As the Court has found the Affidavit for issuance of the search warrant was valid, the search itself was reasonable and legal under Indiana law and Fourth Amendment case law."

JG is no paragon of meticulousness. Baldwin expressed his frustration in chambers as to her lack of clarity. He made a forest analogy, IIRC, where I might use tea leaves. This management style is intentionally passive-aggressive. Lazy, yet controlling. There are lazy judge rules in some states ... maybe in Indiana? JHMO

Also you stole my question list there. Very nice work!

 

[photographer4]

Cara W made the same point about a possible accomplice, but put it in terms of liability, rather than naming such an accomplice's name. CW also said this was just correcting an oversight.

Makes me less inclined to think the P plans to pursue the DP, and more that they are giving themselves some leeway because they can't prove RA acted alone (whether they identified an actual accomplice, or not). But for his charges, it doesn't matter. Jmo.

I still feel the same, they just need to prove RA was the man on the bridge, so the D bringing other names to the CS has no bearing. SODDI? Possibly, but for his trial, if RA is BG, it's done.

If I lived in Delphi, I would not feel good about this. From Nov 2021 when NMcL first said they had "good reason to believe" there could be others involved, to now, the idea that there was another person involved has never been taken off the table. I hope that if they can prove RA is guilty, that they can also give enough at trial to not leave the community and families hanging on this matter.

I'm with you on this - they have never taken the idea that one or more people were involved that day in addition to RA off the table. That leaves a lot of people wondering if they have the right guy. I wonder if it might affect how jurors view him at trial - eg: to jurors, might there be a difference between a man who might have been involved in a kidnapping that lead to two kids being murdered and a man who acted alone to kidnap and savagely murder them? Aren't they likely to want to know who else was there, and why, and then decide on what should happen to RA accordingly?

 

[photographer4]

I'm not surprised by JG ruling. The request for Franks Hearing was denied based on their outlandish Franks Memo, she didn't have to hold a hearing about her ruling. She made a ruling based on the submission of the D's perception of purported facts.

The bar to toss a search warrant is high and not common, JG found reasonable, probable cause by the State for a warrant after RA's Oct 22 interview at police HQ's, despite the fanfic FM by the Defense.

JMO

I do agree, there was reasonable evidence to for SW. He placed himself at the bridge, around the time the kids were kidnapped, in a blue jacket which was evidenced in the video LG made.

 

[photographer4]

I stopped listening to Condiffer during the G Petito case, after she insisted that BL's parents had sent him to another country during their search for him. I was convinced he was dead in the reserve, and he was.

But now that more details have emerged through the civil trial, I sort of see why the idea existed (beyond the typical theorizing). So while she still isn't my favorite person, I do think she has insight and reasons for what she says, and doesn't need to be summarily dismissed. In Delphi, we all know at least one FBI agent found probable cause to think RL was the killer, per the affidavit. He was one line of investigation, among with KAK, the Rushville gang, etc.

I kind of wonder if, like Click still suspects his guys, the FBI still leans towards RL. Just a thought I find interesting. Wonder if anyone in LE still thinks KAK knows who the killer is. A differeing in opinion won't matter, though, if the P's evidence against RA is solid enough. Jmo.

KaK probably has no idea who the killer was - he was letting others access the account(s) and I think that spiraled out of control. Who's to say that someone else along the chain wasn't also renting out access to the account(s)? Perhaps KaK has no idea of how many people were using it. I wonder if that fact alone has made it hard for police to know which avenue to pursue and which people to investigate? It will be shocking to me if KaK and his catfish acct had nothing whatsoever to do with how these kids ended up dead. Either that is one heck of a coincidence or those kids were the most unlucky kids in the State that day - to have been catfished (groomed by pedos?) and then killed by some random guy who spotted them on their hike that day.

 

[photographer4]

So I am going to lay my bet that any hope of a speedy trial is gone now.

Presumably the defence will now apply to recuse the Judge, and appeal this Franks decision.

I am guessing there is no way Gull intends to recuse, unless this was her parting shot. So that will need to be appealed as well.

But also I thought the Judge would play the game extremely fastidiously from here on out. Wrong again.

This is some serious nonsense from JG here! There is no chance of a speedy trial when the judge is playing silly games with the Defense Team! I'm gonna be super surprised if the Defense doesn't immediately ask for her recusal now!!

 

[photographer4]

I find it fascinating that his lawyers are partly to blame for the leaks of photos of two deceased children and yet so many seem to want to give them a free pass. Then painting the judge like an evil witch. I seriously don’t understand it.

MOO

I'm not painting the judge as anything other than what she appears to be: biased against the Defense Counsel. In regards to the leaks, I cannot hold AB liable for that. He was IN his office, he had no reason to think that someone he had a seemingly decent relationship with was going to enter the "war room" (as it were) and illegal access / take photos of crime scene evidence which he would then disseminate amongst others. How on earth was he supposed to predict that event? I could see him having a problem if he were NOT in the office and this random guy off the street gained access to his office and did that.

But think about your own offices - if you have a conference room, do you lock that whilst you're in say your cubicle next door? Or whilst you run to the restroom? Probably not. Especially if you're just taking a quick call or sending a fast email. Even less likely if you're not expecting a visitor, or if the visitor you expect is a trusted friend.

 

[susiQ]

KaK probably has no idea who the killer was - he was letting others access the account(s) and I think that spiraled out of control. Who's to say that someone else along the chain wasn't also renting out access to the account(s)? Perhaps KaK has no idea of how many people were using it. I wonder if that fact alone has made it hard for police to know which avenue to pursue and which people to investigate? It will be shocking to me if KaK and his catfish acct had nothing whatsoever to do with how these kids ended up dead. Either that is one heck of a coincidence or those kids were the most unlucky kids in the State that day - to have been catfished (groomed by pedos?) and then killed by some random guy who spotted them on their hike that day.

I would agree, that KAK likely does not know who the actual killers are. I also feel that his AS account was the means by which the killers knew the girls would be there. I say killers, because I without a doubt believe there is more than one involved in this horrible crime.

With regard to it being “hard for police to know which avenue to pursue,” I’m sure some of them knew exactly which avenue to pursue and were stymied by others. There is ample evidence that there are at least two occult/secret “brotherhoods” active in the Delphi area and beyond, one of which counsels it’s members that it has an obligation to protect a “brother” even if it means to perjure oneself. How exactly are honest investigators able to properly investigate and follow through when they are possibly being thwarted by members of this brotherhood that are also colleagues? Quite frankly, this is why this case stinks and why it’s driving everyone crazy. Until you can identify the members and put the puzzle pieces together, none of it will ever make any sense. Not only that, there may NEVER be justice for Abby and Libby which is a crying shame! If RA is found guilty of something he did NOT do, there is no justice for the girls either.

JMHO as always.

 

[photographer4]

Since when does a man accused of two counts of murder get released?

He is in the right place until trial as nobody wants a monster capable of killing two teenage girls living next door!

Moo

He is NOT in the right place if the place he is in is the very thing threatening his right to a fair trial! If he is in a place that threatens his right to a fair trial due to lack of access to his defense counsel / legal documents / legal videos etc then no, this isn't the right place for him. Get him to a place that can manage his needs, whatever those may be, while ensuring he has access to his team and any medical help that may be required. Get rid of the idea that he is "Hannibal Lectre" (per the covering counsel in their filing) which can only serve to bias the jury and any staff who may be called to testify against him from the corrections place.

 

[Justice101]

I'm with you on this - they have never taken the idea that one or more people were involved that day in addition to RA off the table. That leaves a lot of people wondering if they have the right guy. I wonder if it might affect how jurors view him at trial - eg: to jurors, might there be a difference between a man who might have been involved in a kidnapping that lead to two kids being murdered and a man who acted alone to kidnap and savagely murder them? Aren't they likely to want to know who else was there, and why, and then decide on what should happen to RA accordingly?

If the reports of the timing in the PCA are correct, then to me, there is no valid argument that one person would not have had enough time to do what he did to L&A. If he spent an hour there, that's more than enough time.

IMO, a man with a gun at the back of teenagers is going to be able to get them to do what he wants them to do. If the girls did say "gun" in the video, then he pulled that on them very early and could have controlled them.

Anyway... I'm just stating the obvious. What do I know?

 

[photographer4]

Considering what he is charged with then things have to be adjusted accordingly. He has confessed multiple times to this crime as well.

He is a danger to society and is in the right place until trial.

I mean, we have had people in prisons not just accused, but CONVICTED of killing kids (Guy Paul Morin in the Jessop Trial, Ontario Canada for instance) - I do not recall how many years he spent in prison as a convicted child rapist and killer. But I do remember several years later when he was finally exonerated fully and completely and released. Oh, and he also "confessed" to people in jail as I recall - but ya know what? DNA advances finally cleared the poor soul and he ended up getting compensation for his time in prison. Further, the police were able to identify the *real* killer as a friend of the family - he wasn't charged as he was only identified recently and was dead (by suicide) before the police could charge him. If you'd like to read more about that particular miscarriage of justice and consider the massive costs to the tax payers in the way police handled the case, the costs for his legal proceedings, the cost to imprison him for however many years and the cost to pay him out when he was released, you can do so here: Guy Paul Morin - CRWC

While I'd like to believe that RA's confession means he did it, I just don't have enough information to make that claim yet. I'd like to know EXACTLY what he said, to whom, when, under what circumstances? Was an Odin guard standing staring at him from the other side of his cell whilst he did so? We don't know. We haven't got any facts in this case yet on this matter.

 

[Salah11]

I mean, we have had people in prisons not just accused, but CONVICTED of killing kids (Guy Paul Morin in the Jessop Trial, Ontario Canada for instance) - I do not recall how many years he spent in prison as a convicted child rapist and killer. But I do remember several years later when he was finally exonerated fully and completely and released. Oh, and he also "confessed" to people in jail as I recall - but ya know what? DNA advances finally cleared the poor soul and he ended up getting compensation for his time in prison. Further, the police were able to identify the *real* killer as a friend of the family - he wasn't charged as he was only identified recently and was dead (by suicide) before the police could charge him. If you'd like to read more about that particular miscarriage of justice and consider the massive costs to the tax payers in the way police handled the case, the costs for his legal proceedings, the cost to imprison him for however many years and the cost to pay him out when he was released, you can do so here: Guy Paul Morin - CRWC

While I'd like to believe that RA's confession means he did it, I just don't have enough information to make that claim yet. I'd like to know EXACTLY what he said, to whom, when, under what circumstances? Was an Odin guard standing staring at him from the other side of his cell whilst he did so? We don't know. We haven't got any facts in this case yet on this matter.

Why would he being making phone calls from
His cell?

Is it not claimed he confused multiple times to his family which couldn’t of been done from his cell.

I obviously know you are highly intelligent from your posts but the entire Odin cult for me personally is laughable. It’s the equivalent of me believing in magic ( imo) . I just can’t take this theory seriously.

 

[Justice101]

Curious, what other cases are you interested in solving/conviction?

Me, there are really just 3:
1) Moscow, ID student murders
2) Delphi IN murders of 2 teens
3) Gilgo Beach serial killer

 

[photographer4]

Motta makes another interesting point. For all we know, SCOINs judgement may simply say that attorneys can only be removed with a hearing and clarify the standard. So will Gull now order a DQ hearing?

That would be insane.

Oh geez, so if she orders a hearing to DQ them and gets the job done, can they then appeal that decision and if so, to whom? And if so, how long is *that* nonsense going to hold up the trial??

 

[photographer4]

I don’t see FG attempting to disqualify attorneys that were just reinstated by SCOIN. She would recuse before she would try that.

jmo

We would hope... but so far, her bias is showing, and its not a good look for her.

 

[Yemelyan]

Why would he being making phone calls from
His cell?

Is it not claimed he confused multiple times to his family which couldn’t of been done from his cell.

I obviously know you are highly intelligent from your posts but the entire Odin cult for me personally is laughable. It’s the equivalent of me believing in magic ( imo) . I just can’t take this theory seriously.

I believe RA had a handheld tablet-like device that he was able to make calls on, it wasn't a typical prison phone call set-up outside of the cell like might be imagined. If I understood correctly, at some point after making statements admitting to the crimes as charged, he destroyed this device. Normally inmates would have to pay to replace their device or do without if they destroyed it but the facility gave him another one right away, basically in order to see what else he would say. This is what I remember but someone please correct me if I've misstated.

 

[Salah11]

I believe RA had a handheld tablet-like device that he was able to make calls on, it wasn't a typical prison phone call set-up outside of the cell like might be imagined. If I understood correctly, at some point after making statements admitting to the crimes as charged, he destroyed this device. Normally inmates would have to pay to replace their device or do without if they destroyed it but the facility gave him another one right away, basically in order to see what else he would say. This is what I remember but someone please correct me if I've misstated.

Thank you for the explanation as you rightly guessed I was picturing the regular phone call outside the cell thing. I just assumed he got time to use it when the others were in their cells.

 

[photographer4]

Why would he being making phone calls from
His cell?

Is it not claimed he confused multiple times to his family which couldn’t of been done from his cell.

I obviously know you are highly intelligent from your posts but the entire Odin cult for me personally is laughable. It’s the equivalent of me believing in magic ( imo) . I just can’t take this theory seriously.

ETA: as someone clarified he used his tablet to place the calls being discussed.

We don't know any context about when / where / how the calls were placed or even if he dialed the numbers himself. We don't know what was said specifically. A lot of assumptions are being made because the prosecution says "he confessed in phone calls". Useless without a lot more information.

Even if we remove my question about duress (eg: could he have made the calls while being stared at by an Odin guard from the other side of the bars) - removing Odins completely here - and we still don't know - was he offered dinner? A shower? Time outside his cell? Was there some incentive presented by staff that we don't know about that lead him to make those calls?

<modsnip> This isn't a one sided case. Its only appearing that way because of gag orders (originally LE and now JG) and lack of hearings / written decisions by the judge.

 

[Emma Peel]

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1749792019654812125?s=20

look who's counting

Wieneke Law Office, LLC

@Wienekelo
·
5h

CORRECTION: she promised it THREE times...

 

[photographer4]

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1749792019654812125?s=20

look who's counting

Q: who does JG answer to in her capacity as a trial judge? Is it only the SCION or the AG?

 

[iamshadow21]

That's part of the point. We don't actually KNOW where he made those calls from in the facility. Could he have used his tablet to phone out? Was he brought to a special access area equipped with a telephone? Or was a phone brought to a medical unit so he could make those calls? We do not know. But what we do know is he made some calls, and said some things that could be considered admissions of guilt. We don't know any context about when / where / how the calls were placed or even if he dialed the numbers himself. We don't know what was said specifically. A lot of assumptions are being made because the prosecution says "he confessed in phone calls". Useless without a lot more information.
Even if we remove my question about duress (eg: could he have made the calls while being stared at by an Odin guard from the other side of the bars) - removing Odins completely here - and we still don't know - was he offered dinner? A shower? Time outside his cell? Was there some incentive presented by staff that we don't know about that lead him to make those calls?

<modsnip> This isn't a one sided case. Its only appearing that way because of gag orders (originally LE and now JG) and lack of hearings / written decisions by the judge.

It is in multiple MSM articles that he smashed the tablet he used to make calls and send texts, that before he broke it he made about two calls a day.

MOO