IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[Emma Peel]

As recently as yesterday, I was wondering if this Judge had gone rogue but now I understand what she is dealing with here. If she does not recuse, then she needs to be careful to get all her decisions and reasoning on the record IMO. It will be very interesting to finally get that SCOIN reasoning.

Also - huge props to Murder Sheet for their reporting on this. They've taken massive flak for supposedly being pro-prosecution but they were right all along.

Again, I'll share my understanding - re MS's involvement in the leaks.

I'm not sure I understand why MS deserves props for being the podcast that developed the platform for these over-time slow information leaks.

MS broadcasted (when the leak news broke and MS called ISP and got involved) that MRC was their source for Delphi case information for a long period of time ... for much of their discovery information shared with their audience ... for months. MS also announced that they told MRC to contact ISP (over the crime scene photos) and helped him do so. MS then warned their fellow broadcasters to destroy any crime scene photos that they'd received (from MRC or otherwise).

It's likely that MS was a direct end user of the MRC-sourced leaks - as reporting material - for months.

I'm curious: Did MS even vet MRC - their source? Did they know where MRC was getting his information? Do they vet any of their sources?

MS has built a significant podcast following being pro-prosecution; many youtube channels and podcasts are pro-prosecution. That's not what the MS flack is for. IMO and the way I understand the recent kerfluffle in podcast land is that MS got flack (from other creators, largely) for inserting themselves into the leak crisis and broadcasting about it in an effort to play "clean".

JMHO

 

[mrjitty]

I'm not sure I understand your assessment, but I'm interested in understanding it.

Here's what I understand - let me know where we differ:

MW consulted w/ Baldwin and was reviewing discovery and consulting over weeks/months.

MW asserted (affidavit and to investigators) that when he was "converting" (photographing) - the crime charged, that Baldwin did not know he was in there "converting". LE conducted that investigation; MW discloses he leaked to Forten. MRC cuts a deal with LE and discloses Forten leaked to him. Forten commits suicide. All youtube creators that MRC sent crime scene photos to were contacted and advised to destroy by LE. Only MW is charged. Baldwin is the victim of that conversion/leak crime (Westerman conversion and sharing w/ Forten, Forten to MRC and down the chain).

At the time of the in-chambers conference, Gull and McL have the LE investigation of the leak - and the leak investigators - sitting in the courtroom. When Westerman realized there was a leak that started with photos he took w/o Baldwin's knowledge ... he confessed to Baldwin. Baldwin told Rozzi and Rozzi wrote to the Court their understanding of the leak from Westerman within 24 hours - you may recall reading that Rozzi stayed up all night to submit the report as soon as Westerman confessed. That was before the inchambers. After the inchambers Westerman executed an affidavit, which Rozzi submitted to court before the 10/31 hearing.

In your view, what information and how were true circumstances withheld from the court and when?

Remember that what AB says happened, along with the threadbare affidavit from MW are not facts - merely the defence's version of what happened. AB claimed that he was the victim of a betrayal, yet omitted to tell the court that he had freely disclosed the Franks memo and who knows what else to MW. These undisclosed aspects clearly call into question his whole story.

I get that everyone will want to relitigate the removal but to me there is a much more fundamental point here. AB lied to the Judges face.

Re: Weineke - Weineke understood all of the above b/c the pertinent information was detailed in the supporting exhibits for the 2nd Writ. And her twitter today indicates her disgust with the P's filing for Sanctions today. Her twitter comments are on this thread.

And I note she conspicuously did not comment on the bombshell revelation that AB freely gave MW access to the Franks and who knows what else.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I missed the States Motion yesterday about the Defense. WOW, WOW, WOW is all I can say. From day one I knew that was an ill intended document, purposely driven by the Defense to publicly plant ideas and motions that were total BS IMO. I've repeated it ad nauseam here.

I don't think Judge Gull should be the one to recuse, I think she should hold the correct procedural hearing to disqualify R&B.

No wonder R&B wouldn't come out in open Court and address their issues of DQ. They saw those LE officers who investigated the leaks and knew they were gonna be in BIG trouble when all of the truth came out. How can this trial move forward with these unethical, disingenuous, untrustworthy Defense lawyers? No wonder Judge Gull was so upset, she was privy to this information when we weren't.

I see another round of hearings/DQ coming, and if R&B care sooooo very much about their boy "Rick" then they should do the right thing and recuse themselves.

I posted yesterday the rules ordered by the Court for the gag order and maintaining Discovery. A&R broke all of them, giving access to MW purposely? What???? They are what gives Defense attorneys a bad name IMO. We need good defense attorneys just as much as we need good Prosecutors to make the judicial process work fairly for all parties. I am beyond disgusted even though I've said they were sneaky and underhanded from the start, I'm not surprised.

I wonder what this is going to do to the case? I think R&B should be removed immediately, they are untrustworthy.

So sorry for the families of Abby & Libby, I cannot even begin to imagine their pain in all of this, they are just re-victimized over and over again.

Wow is all I can say still, and that I get absolutely no pleasure in being right about these two.

MOO

 

[Salah11]

I missed the States Motion yesterday about the Defense. WOW, WOW, WOW is all I can say. From day one I knew that was an ill intended document, purposely driven by the Defense to publicly plant ideas and motions that were total BS IMO. I've repeated it ad nauseam here.

I don't think Judge Gull should be the one to recuse, I think she should hold the correct procedural hearing to disqualify R&B.

No wonder R&B wouldn't come out in open Court and address their issues of DQ. They saw those LE officers who investigated the leaks and knew they were gonna be in BIG trouble when all of the truth came out. How can this trial move forward with these unethical, disingenuous, untrustworthy Defense lawyers? No wonder Judge Gull was so upset, she was privy to this information when we weren't.

I see another round of hearings/DQ coming, and if R&B care sooooo very much about their boy "Rick" then they should do the right thing and recuse themselves.

I posted yesterday the rules ordered by the Court for the gag order and maintaining Discovery. A&R broke all of them, giving access to MW purposely? What???? They are what gives Defense attorneys a bad name IMO. We need good defense attorneys just as much as we need good Prosecutors to make the judicial process work fairly for all parties. I am beyond disgusted even though I've said they were sneaky and underhanded from the start, I'm not surprised.

I wonder what this is going to do to the case? I think R&B should be removed immediately, they are untrustworthy.

So sorry for the families of Abby & Libby, I cannot even begin to imagine their pain in all of this, they are just re-victimized over and over again.

Wow is all I can say still, and that I get absolutely no pleasure in being right about these two.

MOO

Great post

 

[mrjitty]

Yes it's unique, but it does happen. What if RA has committed other crimes we or LE are not aware of?

JMO

Is it unique? I have no idea if these type of killers usually start younger.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Great post

Thanks Salah11, I shouldn't be so shocked by this D team, but I am sadly.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Is it unique? I have no idea if these type of killers usually start younger.

A crime of this magnitude, usually there are some type of signs or prior behavior by the offender. Maybe there is and we just don't know about it yet or maybe RA fantasized about it for years and decided that was the day? IDK

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

Thanks Salah11, I shouldn't be so shocked by this D team, but I am sadly.

Whereas I've been deeply cynical about their actions and their motivations for months, since the Franks if not before.

Welcome. It's kind of depressing being constantly disappointed by humanity, but every now and then someone surprises you by being awesome, selfless, and ethically sound.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

A crime of this magnitude, usually there are some type of signs or prior behavior by the offender. Maybe there is and we just don't know about it yet or maybe RA fantasized about it for years and decided that was the day? IDK

MOO

From what I've read about these kinds of offenders, it is far more common for people to start young, but not unheard of for someone to act on something they've simply fantasised about for decades at an older age. He's an outlier but not a unicorn.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

I'm not sure I understand why MS deserves props for being the podcast that developed the platform for these over-time slow information leaks.

RSBM - (from my POV),

MS broke the story way back before the in chambers hearing that MW leaked more than just the crime scene photos. That for me, was an indicator that AB was deceiving the court about what had really happened. It never was just stolen photos - MW had access to more stuff, and it implied AB was giving it to him. Now it appears that reporting was correct.

So yes, from where I am sitting, hats off to them for reporting accurate information.

 

[mrjitty]

Personally I don't think they will be removed.

As @O.Incandenza posted, sanctions is the right approach. IMO its important that there is a hearing to get all this in the open now. Especially why did AB pretend MW was just an old friend dropping by after work who stole the photos when actually MW was some form of ad hoc consultant helping out on the case?

He needs to be hauled into Court to explain all this.

Especially he was already in trouble for failing to tell the court about an accidental breach - and here he covered up a long running intentional one!

OR

If the truth is there was no negligent breach to MW because really MW was a team member - then he covered up a breach by a member of the defence

You just can't lie to the Judge in my opinion.

Now - even with all the above - I think Judge Gull should recuse, let a fresh Judge come in, and rip the living hide off AB.

 

[katydid23]

Gull's son's family socializing w/ the Pattys while Gull rules on the murder trial bench ... is a twist I did not see coming.

From the DQ motion - RA affidavit linked in this thread above, see #XVIII:


2024 1/29 affidavit_of_Richard_Allen.pdf

Wait a minute===Gull's granddaughters are on a local softball team. And that team played in a local memorial tournament, that presumably included ALL local children signed up for softball that season?

And so that should mean this judge should be removed, because her granddaughter's team played in the tournament, and received rings from the victims family? ALL THE PLAYERS received rings.

How does this make the presiding judge biased in any way?

This seems like a real stretch to say the judge's son was 'socialising' with the Patty's. The judges son was watching his girls play in a softball tournament with a hundred other local family members surrounding them.

This seems to be a very big stretch. JMO

 

[katydid23]

To be clear, I was not suggesting that a child killer (any killer) isn’t insane. Just it seems stupid to invite the attention of the Odinists into your life / your crime is all.

Yet it is also stupid to kill two teen girls in broad daylight in a park, and that didn't stop him.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

What troubles me, is the foundation of the in chambers hearing was AB negligently allowing unauthorised access to the crime scene photos. But he intentionally mislead the Court and Judge Gull in chambers by concealing that he gave MW the Franks and who knows what other info.



Why was this not disclosed? The Franks itself contains descriptions of the crime scene!

What’s the issue with giving MW the Franks? So what if there’s descriptions of the CS? That has nothing to do with the Gag or Protective Orders.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

posted yesterday the rules ordered by the Court for the gag order and maintaining Discovery. A&R broke all of them, giving access to MW purposely?

(I messed up the quoting function— this is a response to @girlhasnoname IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174 sorry!!)
SBM- where is it alleged that B&R gave MW access to discovery? The motion alleges that he let him read the FM and discussed the case with him. It only insinuates that MW was given access to the office by citing the letter from BR, which doesn’t say MW was allowed to view discovery, only that they should have had better security. In what way does that break any order?

 

[mrjitty]

What’s the issue with giving MW the Franks? So what if there’s descriptions of the CS? That has nothing to do with the Gag or Protective Orders.

Perhaps we should ask Rozzi and DH why they forgot to mention the part where the old friend who dropped by after work and snuck in and stole the photos was actually working on the case?

 

[mrjitty]

SBM- where is it alleged that B&R gave MW access to discovery? The motion alleges that he let him read the FM and discussed the case with him. It only insinuates that MW was given access to the office by citing the letter from BR, which doesn’t say MW was allowed to view discovery, only that they should have had better security. In what way does that break any order?

I didn't post this

 

[Justice101]

Wait a minute===Gull's granddaughters are on a local softball team. And that team played in a local memorial tournament, that presumably included ALL local children signed up for softball that season?

And so that should mean this judge should be removed, because her granddaughter's team played in the tournament, and received rings from the victims family? ALL THE PLAYERS received rings.

How does this make the presiding judge biased in any way?

This seems like a real stretch to say the judge's son was 'socialising' with the Patty's. The judges son was watching his girls play in a softball tournament with a hundred other local family members surrounding them.

This seems to be a very big stretch. JMO

In a small town there are going to be much less than 6 degrees of separation. it is a huge stretch... they are grasping at straws every time

 

[katydid23]

Sanctions for violating the protective order is the way this should have been handled from the start, so this makes sense to me.

They not only violated the protective order repeatedly---they also lied to the court. And they negligently stored sealed documents and photos in a room that non-employees had access to.

I think they should have a hearing about possible dismissal. JMO

 

[TL4S]

I'm not sure how to feel about any of this. I'm not comfortable with the belief system that every word from the D is a lie and every word from the P is truth. That possible omissions from the D should be grounds for severe reprimands, while possible omissions from LE are summarily dismissed without hearing.

It took NMcL nearly a year and three months to correct the charges against RA. RA has been in IDOC most of that time, without private access to his lawyers. JG hasn't followed due process.

The D have done things they shouldn't have done, yes, and they should be sanctioned. But why are all the wrongdoings done by the rest of the parties not punishable?

I'm exhausted for the families.