Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

[Boxer]

I agree. I don't believe that the location of the bodies had special meaning, or that it was BG's planned destination. IMO, the location is, however, very important for the story it tells.

If the murders were planned, I can't see any reason for BG to have crossed the bridge. Or the creek. Why not wait on the north end, or follow them across and kill them in the woods below the south end of the bridge, on either side? Them being on the north side of the creek doesn't make sense here.

Neither does it make sense to me for BG to ever cross the creek or march them for hundreds or thousands of feet through the woods (or creek). Maybe he did plan to engage them on the south end of the bridge, but they took off down into the woods heading towards the creek, which foiled his plan.

I don't know for sure how it happened, but I feel decently confident that their final location was where it was because that's where BG finally caught up with them. Obviously nobody else feels that way.

MOO have two ideas competing depending on the age of suspect, both would be local.

MOO Older man.
Decides on raping the girls, intends to use the quarry behind the cemetery for cover, he laid in wait on the trail on the north side of bridge, got impatient as they dawdled on the south side, got irritated went across to get them, pulled out his handgun.
Forcing them in front on way down the hill and east toward a place on the south side with privacy, they made a break for it crossed the creek and he caught up with them on the flat where killed them for disobeying his orders and left immediately.

MOO Another theory if a much younger man, is that there is a local young man to whom that flat is something special. He took them there, and killed them there.

 

[tresir2012]

I agree. I don't believe that the location of the bodies had special meaning, or that it was BG's planned destination. IMO, the location is, however, very important for the story it tells.

If the murders were planned, I can't see any reason for BG to have crossed the bridge. Or the creek. Why not wait on the north end, or follow them across and kill them in the woods below the south end of the bridge, on either side? Them being on the north side of the creek doesn't make sense here.

Neither does it make sense to me for BG to ever cross the creek or march them for hundreds or thousands of feet through the woods (or creek). Maybe he did plan to engage them on the south end of the bridge, but they took off down into the woods heading towards the creek, which foiled his plan.

I don't know for sure how it happened, but I feel decently confident that their final location was where it was because that's where BG finally caught up with them. Obviously nobody else feels that way.

We did used to feel that way till LE said none of the reenactments got it right, which put us back at the beginning. I just read a heavy.com article that stated the SC was posted at 2 PM and a female witness stated she was at the bridge shortly after that but didn't see anyone except another couple under the bridge. (Was that the girls I wonder?) So she didn't seemingly see BG. She went over the bridge and took pictures so where were the girls then?
It is certainly very strange that nobody even saw them except apparently one other woman, who also saw BG.
All very strange IMO.

 

[TL4S]

We did used to feel that way till LE said none of the reenactments got it right, which put us back at the beginning. I just read a heavy.com article that stated the SC was posted at 2 PM and a female witness stated she was at the bridge shortly after that but didn't see anyone except another couple under the bridge. (Was that the girls I wonder?) So she didn't seemingly see BG. She went over the bridge and took pictures so where were the girls then?
It is certainly very strange that nobody even saw them except apparently one other woman, who also saw BG.
All very strange IMO.

The reenactments have BG leading them across the creek. That's not at all what I think happened. I wish MSM would publish more about these witnesses. It would certainly tighten up the loose ends.

 

[tresir2012]

If he killed them on the south side of the creek, what would be his reason to carry them to the north side instead of leave them where they fell?

Guilt and to try and hide them so he could get away. Alternatively, he may have struck one and knocked her out and carried her (Abby?) making the other help to carry her.

Also using the creek to wash away any blood, mud or DNA could be a motive.

 

[tresir2012]

The reenactments have BG leading them across the creek. That's not at all what I think happened. I wish MSM would publish more about these witnesses. It would certainly tighten up the loose ends.

I've seen reenactments where they are forced across at gunpoint, so that's wrong too apparently.

 

[TL4S]

I've seen reenactments where they are forced across at gunpoint, so that's wrong too apparently.

What do you think happened?

Ha, yeah, we're kind of left to wonder.

If he didn't have a gun, all the more reason he wasn't marching them through the woods or creek, but basically jumping them near the final CS.

 

[Jax49]

Okay. A standard football field is 100 yards long, no? So we are talking almost 3 of those in length. One girl is about 180 pounds (I remember this from the "missing" info disseminated by LE before the bodies were found). The other is certainly around 100 pounds more or less. Let's say you're right and he only has to transport one of them and lets imagine it's the lighter of the two. Now he has to wrangle a 100 pound dead weight across a creek and other rough terrain while keeping control of a living hostage as well, one who may be shorter than he is but weighs almost as much. He has to go across 3 football fields in 15 minutes under these conditions? I just don't know. It's more likely that what we think we know about the eyewitness testimony is off. Didn't Sgt. Holeman say that NONE of the re-enactments that are currently out there are correct?

For accuracy, weight on FBI poster is 200 lbs. ETA, the smaller teen was 100 lbs.

 

[tresir2012]

Can you address how one would carry someone who is 180 pounds the length of 3 football fields in 15 minutes (yes, you said the current in the creek could "help" but what about the steep bank from creek to the place where the bodies were found), or conversely, carry one approx 100 pound person the same distance while controlling a 180 pound person? I'm trying to imagine two girls and fireman's carry? Dragging? I just don't see it being at all viable. And like a previous poster said, to what end? Just to hide them in a particular place? Why not leave them where they fell. How exposed would a person be dragging corpses across the creek to the sight of people who may be walking on the trails?

I addressed it in my reply to TL4S hopefully.

 

[Nerissa]

Not to be a Debbie Downer or Negative Nancy or what have you, lol: but, just 'cause LE says all the reenactments are wrong doesn't mean they are. LE has seemed incredibly 'mum is the word' about details & releasing details.

I'd be more surprised if they said: "Why, yes! Yes! That's exactly how it went down!"

JMO

 

[tresir2012]

Not to be a Debbie Downer or Negative Nancy or what have you, lol: but, just 'cause LE says all the reenactments are wrong doesn't mean they are. LE has seemed incredibly 'mum is the word' about details & releasing details.

I'd be more surprised if they said: "Why, yes! Yes! That's exactly how it went down!"

JMO

They could just say nothing but did make special mention. And I agree, they wouldn't admit if any of it was right. I remember GH boasting at one point that LE had contacted him wanting to know how he knew stuff.

 

[Yemelyan]

I addressed it in my reply to TL4S hopefully.

Nope, not addressed at all. How does a not very tall man of apparently average size carry 300 pounds the length of 3 football fields? Your answer to why you think he did so is "guilt." Okay, let's think about that. You've just committed a horrendous crime. The whole area is wooded. You want to get away quickly. So you drag them off the trail into the bushes, maybe, but drag them 270 yards (by your calculation), including through a creek and now heavier for being waterlogged,to a place where you can hide them better? To assuage your guilt? We will have to disagree that this is a plausible explanation.

 

[sunshineray]

Hmm. I don't know, either. I'm thinking if FSG saw BG on the trail, it would have been nearer the Monon High Bridge instead of the Freedom Bridge because FSG was on his way back from the MHB when he saw DG. Unfortunately, I haven't seen if FSG stated which direction BG was heading. But if FSG never saw the girls, but saw BG on the north side of the bridge at 2:47, and he's accurate on that, than I'm a bit flummoxed. I'd probably lean more on the girls crossing the creek to avoid BG and him recrossing the bridge, waiting on the trail until nobody was watching (after FSG passed) and finally heading into the woods to cut them off near the murder site. I still think that gives him enough time to have killed them around 3pm and been done by 3:11 when DG called her phone. Timeline is VERY tight.

If you're sure FSG saw DG on his way back from MHB, then that means he heard/saw a couple under that bridge well after the murders occured. Who the heck were they? They'd have to be the most unluckiest of hikers to be right under there immediately following a double homicide approximately half a mile away. Or where they involved and trying to figure out where to flee, what direction.

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

The reenactments have BG leading them across the creek. That's not at all what I think happened. I wish MSM would publish more about these witnesses. It would certainly tighten up the loose ends.

Hi TL4S,

Bouncing off your post, and with all due respect, if you had been a witness who contacted LE about seeing BG, would you want MSM to publish more about you? Considering no one can confirm who or where BG is, or knows if BG could remember who may have seen him as well as they remember seeing him, I certainly wouldn’t.

I have posted this before: about a year ago, a MSM article online contained information about witness(es) who allegedly saw BG on the trail and then saw the girls, but didn’t mention BG to the girls. When some of us went back to link it a week or two later, the article was edited and the part about witness(es) and the trail went POOF!

It could be the information was false and was removed, but I honestly believe LE is trying to protect any witness(es) from BG and that is why we can’t find linkable MSM information.

Edit: forgot my JMO

~RIP M+J

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

Not to be a Debbie Downer or Negative Nancy or what have you, lol: but, just 'cause LE says all the reenactments are wrong doesn't mean they are. LE has seemed incredibly 'mum is the word' about details & releasing details.

I'd be more surprised if they said: "Why, yes! Yes! That's exactly how it went down!"

JMO

They could just say nothing but did make special mention. And I agree, they wouldn't admit if any of it was right. I remember GH boasting at one point that LE had contacted him wanting to know how he knew stuff.

Hi Nerissa and tresir2012,

I remember GH making that comment, also. I can’t help but wonder if LE is saying the re-enactments are wrong to lull BG into a false sense of security that LE is on the wrong trail and BG will lower his guard and mess up because he thinks he’s home free.

JMO

~RIP M+J

 

[tresir2012]

Nope, not addressed at all. How does a not very tall man of apparently average size carry 300 pounds the length of 3 football fields? Your answer to why you think he did so is "guilt." Okay, let's think about that. You've just committed a horrendous crime. The whole area is wooded. You want to get away quickly. So you drag them off the trail into the bushes, maybe, but drag them 270 yards (by your calculation), including through a creek and now heavier for being waterlogged,to a place where you can hide them better? To assuage your guilt? We will have to disagree that this is a plausible explanation.

It wasn't far to the creek edge. If he killed them in the woods it wouldn't be impossible, difficult but not impossible.

He would want to hide his guilt and cover his tracks to try and hide the bodies so he could get away. Alternatively, he may have struck one and knocked her out and carried her (Abby?) making the other help to carry her across.

Also using the creek to wash away any blood, mud or DNA could be another motive in carrying and taking them across.

 

[TL4S]

If you're sure FSG saw DG on his way back from MHB, then that means he heard/saw a couple under that bridge well after the murders occured. Who the heck were they? They'd have to be the most unluckiest of hikers to be right under there immediately following a double homicide approximately half a mile away. Or where they involved and trying to figure out where to flee, what direction.

The thing is, I'm not sure anyone saw BG. I've seen various times and witness stories, and they're all different. So it's anyone's guess!

ETA: I think the timeline can work with or without the witnesses. Hard to believe nobody saw or heard more with up to four people at the bridge around the time of the murders, but it's been discussed and clearly could have happened.

 

[TL4S]

Hi TL4S,

Bouncing off your post, and with all due respect, if you had been a witness who contacted LE about seeing BG, would you want MSM to publish more about you? Considering no one can confirm who or where BG is, or knows if BG could remember who may have seen him as well as they remember seeing him, I certainly wouldn’t.

I have posted this before: about a year ago, a MSM article online contained information about witness(es) who allegedly saw BG on the trail and then saw the girls, but didn’t mention BG to the girls. When some of us went back to link it a week or two later, the article was edited and the part about witness(es) and the trail went POOF!

It could be the information was false and was removed, but I honestly believe LE is trying to protect any witness(es) from BG and that is why we can’t find linkable MSM information.

Edit: forgot my JMO

~RIP M+J

I fully agree. There's lots of stuff I "wish" we knew, but have the utmost respect for not being given. LE has the job to do, not us. I'll tell you one thing, though. If I was a witness, the last person I'd talk to is a youtuber...

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

I fully agree. There's lots of stuff I "wish" we knew, but have the utmost respect for not being given. LE has the job to do, not us. I'll tell you one thing, though. If I was a witness, the last person I'd talk to is a youtuber...

RBBM

I COMPLETELY AGREE!!!!

~rip m+j

 

[TL4S]

It wasn't far to the creek edge. If he killed them in the woods it wouldn't be impossible, difficult but not impossible.

He would want to cover his tracks to try and hide them so he could get away. Alternatively, he may have struck one and knocked her out and carried her (Abby?) making the other help to carry her across.

Also using the creek to wash away any blood, mud or DNA could be a motive in carrying and taking them across.

Why no photos of crime scene tape near the creek banks where he would have had to leave marks climbing out? LE had to have known if the bodies had been dragged or dropped there vs killed there, wouldn't they? Plus you can see the creek from the bridge.

Don't worry, nobody agrees with my scenario, either. We can agree to disagree and wallow by our lonesomes together.

 

[Jax49]

Why no photos of crime scene tape near the creek banks where he would have had to leave marks climbing out? LE had to have known if the bodies had been dragged or dropped there vs killed there, wouldn't they? Plus you can see the creek from the bridge.

Don't worry, nobody agrees with my scenario, either. We can agree to disagree and wallow by our lonesomes together.

The crime scene tape stopping before the creek has always bothered me. I've always believed (and still do) that they were killed where they were found, but the tape placement seems odd.