Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

[HEY YOU!]

Who was the witness who said that suspect definitely did not have blue eyes? That is super odd and I wonder if that witness was perhaps providing an alibi for the suspect or was the suspect. If you know the eyes were definitely NOT blue then surely you noticed actual color. Also, eye could be dilated to the point of not seeing actual eye color. Who was that witness?

 

[JnRyan]

Thought this might be useful as so many of us have been discussing it.

RTV6 why are the sketches so different?

Ummm...that kind of helps, but it doesn't really doesn't help. In addition to the 2 very different sketches we have LE saying #2 is primary and #1 is secondary. No, wait, only look at #1. No, wait, it could be a composite of the two. PaulaDC may have hit on it about the first sketch a few threads back - a rush job that backfired.

Why? Just my opinion, but I believe LE sees the video and then the audio. This combined with the witnesses - but not witnesses to the actual murder - probably gave them what they would rarely see in a murder. Then add in the horrendous scene of two middle school girls found dead (strong motivation) and LE might have concluded early on this was going to be solved in short order. Could LE have been overconfident?

 

[Cryptic]

Drugs do things to human brain, especially stimulants prepared under poor quality control. However, with the drug dealer POI, something does not pan out.

The perpetrators in the crime I described were also sober (or largely sober) when they murdered the victim. In the case I listed, the perpetrators were in their teens / very early twenties. Their drug usage was recreational.

I think motivational themes might be more important than actual drug use as being the primary cause:

- Respect / disrespect: The older brother had 'dissed the group by running up a drug debt and by being openly flippant to the group regarding payment.

- Need for an easier target: Older brother was street tough / wise. Directly confronting him could be problematic. Younger brother was a far easier target.

- Impulsive decision making: Decision to relatively kidnap younger brother was completely on impulse with out thought to later consequences.

- Snowballing circumstances: Fear of being charged with kidnapping led to decision that murdering the younger brother was "logical" and the only way out.

In a targeted for complex circumstance type motive, the initiating circumstance would not need to be a drug debt by a third party per se. Rather, just any respect / disrespect issue, the girls seen as easier victims. Then factor in impulsive decision making and the possibility of snowballing situations where murder comes to be seen as "logical".

 

[Kubirai]

Liberty German may have intentionally gone to the Monon high bridge on Feb 13, 2017 to meet someone from her online universe.

She thought he would be a smart teenage boy, but being cautious and a budding detective, she arranged the sleepover on Sunday, so her friend Abigail will come with her on Monday.

My hunch on Feb 14 2017 late night was that the perpetrator was a worker at the nearby meat processing plant, and he would leave the area shortly.

I discussed my hunch with local police. I suggested the man may have expected Liberty to come alone, and may have originally planned to kidnap her. His car was waiting.

 

[Cryptic]

Liberty German may have intentionally gone to the Monon high bridge on Feb 13, 2017 to meet someone from her online universe.

She thought he would be a smart teenage boy, but being cautious and a budding detective, she arranged the sleepover on Sunday, so her friend Abigail will come with her on Monday.

I can readily see this circumstance. It is simple and very plausible.

My hunch on Feb 14 2017 late night was that the perpetrator was a worker at the nearby meat processing plant, and he would leave the area shortly.

Though it is entirely possible that the perpetrator is an employee at the plant, I don't think there are circumstances that make this more likely.

- The perpetrator is apparently very familiar with the bride, the creek and the surrounding area Statistically, most plant workers would not be. There would be, however, a number of employees with such familiarity.

- The plant keeps rigorous track of absent employees, days off, clock in / out times. Likewise, supervisors know which employees- if any leave the plant during lunch. As a side note, essentially nobody did at the plant I worked at due to time.

 

[CSIDreamer]

I now believe the crime was planned but the victims were not planned (I.e. the killer wanted to commit the crime and planned it but the girls happened to be the ones who walked into his trap). I believe this guy is a predator who fantasized about the crime. He had a spot staked out, the gear prepped to conduct the crime, and he went into those woods along that trail and those poor girls, sadly, were the ones who showed up.

However what does not make sense to me is the timing. If you were trolling for little girl victims on a weekday in those woods, wouldn’t you be there later in the day after school let out? It makes me wonder if he is somehow connected to the school system and so knew the unusual schedule for that day. A bus driver?

I also think they have DNA and just don’t have a match. Have they ever asked for volunteer swabs of community residents?

All MOO

I agree with you. The thing I'm wondering is if he had "2 teenage girls" in mind. I wonder if he had decided that was the day to put his plan in action against whatever female he deemed to be part of the plan. For all we know, had a lone female been 5 minutes ahead of them, it would have been her.

 

[ScumbagTrav]

I'm not trying to suggest or imply that this case is, but at what point does a case become "cold?"

 

[JnRyan]

I'm not trying to suggest or imply that this case is, but at what point does a case become "cold?"

I believe that thought or question is on the minds of many of us. To hear LE talk about cases in other jurisdictions I usually hear, "The case is not cold because we still get tips." I'm not LE, so my view may vary.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I believe that thought or question is on the minds of many of us. To hear LE talk about cases in other jurisdictions I usually hear, "The case is not cold because we still get tips." I'm not LE, so my view may vary.

The case (IMO), is by means no where close to being cold. There is still feverish interest in finding the Coward, and determining if he is actually a SK associated with other murders.

We are impatient, and rightfully so. God Bless the families; this is a cruel form of torture. However, the day of justice will come. Imagine the unbelievable amount of work required to sort through all the leads, and the forensic science resources required. That's what's taking so long.

Bittersweet Justice is on its way.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[TL4S]

I'm not trying to suggest or imply that this case is, but at what point does a case become "cold?"

I'm hopeful that just because LE is quiet, it doesn't mean they're cold. As @rosesfromangels said, we here are impatient. With little to go on, we are at odds with one another's theories. Some are set on very specific POIs, others are not. Some think LE is stuck, others think they're close. Every detail of the case has 20 varying perspectives. We're all frustrated.

I also think if LE has reason to believe BG is following the case, and wants to know why they know, than maybe keeping quiet is a good tactic to drive him out? IDK

 

[JnRyan]

The case (IMO), is by means no where close to being cold. There is still feverish interest in finding the Coward, and determining if he is actually a SK associated with other murders.

We are impatient, and rightfully so. God Bless the families; this is a cruel form of torture. However, the day of justice will come. Imagine the unbelievable amount of work required to sort through all the leads, and the forensic science resources required. That's what's taking so long.

Bittersweet Justice is on its way.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I haven't come down either way on whether it is cold or not. Forensics takes a long time, but I can't see it taking 2 and a half years. LE may be looking at it over and over again, but I believe 95% to 99% of what needed to be tested has been tested long ago. Maybe comparisons with new persons, but no new testing.

What leads me to believe this case is not cold is the massive volume of publicity LE has uncharacteristically thrown at this case. That creates tips and when you have tips and it is difficult to argue that the case is not cold.

Where I am in conflict is in the enormous amount of publicity LE has thrown at this case and does it artificially create the illusion of a case that is not cold. Why this case? Because it was two young girls and this upsets us all? This is not the only crime ISP has on its plate. For example, ISP is supposedly investigating the disappearance of a young mother, Marina Boelter, from Bloomfield IN on New Year's Eve 2014. Her mother is trying desperately to get her daughter's case out in the public and ISP might as well be a group of deaf mutes for all public effort they have, or have not, done in her case. We all want to see PC's and listen to interviews from ISP and the local sheriff and LE is providing it. Then every time they do we hear about the volume of tips coming in - supposedly 950 in the 24-48 hours after the 22 April PC. So if tips are the measurement tool, then this case is not cold.

But beyond the volume of tips, what is the quality of the new tips? If the town drunk, Bill will call him, has 20 tips called in on him in the first 1000 and a janitor somewhere else has a large volume of tips and LE clears the two, then if we get a large volume of repeat tips on these two after 22 April are they really 'new' tips? People may be frustrated that they didn't hear anything on their original tip or their neighbor said they called in a tip so now they call in the same tip 2 years later, is it really a 'new' tip?

We, the public, are being told the volume of tips, but not - and rightfully so - the content of the tips. Even if LE tells me, "Yes, we are getting some good tips." I am skeptical. But again, I am auditor by profession and in the GAO Yellow Book, we are cautioned that testimonial evidence is the weakest form of evidence and cannot be used unless backed by valid documentary evidence or physical observation by the auditors themselves. So I just naturally have a 'healthy skepticism' for lack of a better term. Like the scorpion in the tale of the scorpion and the frog, "I can't help myself, its in my nature."

 

[Yuletide]

Dwelling on all the comments about BG moving about quickly...

He certainly was agile traversing the rickety bridge, 70? Feet up; seemingly toting gear at the same time. Then, corralling two teens fighting ? For their lives. He seemed to be someone comfortable with heights and gear, like a utility worker, tree person, or such. Containing the girls speaks to military or security training.
So a tree trimming security guard. Not much of a profile! Back to the white board...

Amateur opinion and speculation

I agree. He had been on that bridge many times before in my opinion, and may be younger than he appears in the grainy footage.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I am auditor by profession and in the GAO Yellow Book, we are cautioned that testimonial evidence is the weakest form of evidence and cannot be used unless backed by valid documentary evidence or physical observation by the auditors themselves. So I just naturally have a 'healthy skepticism' for lack of a better term. Like the scorpion in the tale of the scorpion and the frog, "I can't help myself, its in my nature."

Respectfully snipped.
Someone with your profession and talent is extremely valuable in picking through and validating/dismissing data associated with these cases. Very glad you are here.
BTW, at our company holiday party last year the auditing department won the karaoke contest. They were animals! LOL.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[rosesfromangels]

I agree. He had been on that bridge many times before in my opinion, and may be younger than he appears in the grainy footage.

Agree. I'm still sticking to my speculation of 16-19 y/0 when the crime took place. I think it's the agility that has me so strongly leaning in that direction. That guy who is the "tree climbing guy"

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[JnRyan]

Respectfully snipped.
Someone with your profession and talent is extremely valuable in picking through and validating/dismissing data associated with these cases. Very glad you are here.
BTW, at our company holiday party last year the auditing department won the karaoke contest. They were animals! LOL.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Auditors acting as normal social beings! You've got to be kidding! They're supposed to go around and cite the Yellow Book and the AICPA Auditing Standards, and IR Code if they have their CPA. I need physical observation. Got videos?

 

[rosesfromangels]

dbm because I was having too much fun being off topic. Setting a bad example. : )

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I'm not trying to suggest or imply that this case is, but at what point does a case become "cold?"

I think LE’s definition of a cold case is one that they are no longer actively investigating. That is certainly not the case here. LE is definitely still investigating it.
That being said I would define a cold case as one where no progress is being made. Using that definition I think it could be argued that this case is cold. In my opinion the info released in April was not progress, it just shuffled the cards.

 

[tresir2012]

I'm back near where I started.

Scenario:
BG is driving west on W 300 N and sees two girls dropped off. He goes around the bend and parks at the CPS building, then gets on the trail to catch up and follow them. (Alternately, he's already on the trail) The girls start over the bridge, and eventually, so does he.

This is where I break off into two ideas. I'll go with the one that puts BG with the girls the least amount of time. The girls decided to wait around under the bridge in the wooded area for BG to recross and be gone. He does recross, but is still yelling down to them, or is stopping and watching, or otherwise acting strangely. At this point they basically have no choice but to either go back via the bridge where the weird guy is, or cross the creek to get back to their ride. I think they cross the creek.

BG gets to the north end of the bridge, checks for people coming, and goes off into the woods to corner the girls. He gets to them up the hill from where they were found, orders them back "down the hill." From here I'm guessing things get very rough, very quickly, and is over in a matter of a few minutes.

(The alternate scenarios, in my mind, are that they all cross back over the bridge (various possible ways), he orders them into the woods on the north end, and marches them to the location he killed them. Or, he waits around on the trail and the girls try to avoid him by going through the woods, but he corners them). These are my secondary options only because it puts BG with the girls for a longer extent of time.

Again, I have multiple ideas on how BG gets back to his vehicle. Either he walks the woods/trail and gets there, but has a problem (as I posted yesterday with the car key scenario), or there are now people on the trail when he's in the woods coming back, so he hides out for awhile (or takes a different route) and doesn't get to his car until much later.

I think in the encounter, BG's hat gets knocked off, which in turn drops shed reddish brown hair. He doesn't leave the hat, but the hairs are left behind. If the hat is his, they're probably his hair. If it's not his hat, it could be the owner's hair.

I also think the YBG witness saw something related to either the vehicle or the CPS lot (or both).

Just tossing around ideas.

If the time frame is only 17 minutes from 2.30 to 2.47 this does not give time for anything like recrossing the bridge and going down the east bank of Deer Creek and then be back near Freedom bridge at 2.47. He must have immediately killed one or both down
the hill and under the bridge then taken their bodies across the creek then left. It was that quick IMO.

 

[HEY YOU!]

I agree that the time window is super small. I believe he knew exactly when he would be there and he planned to kill them and get back to wherever he was quickly in order to maintain an alibi. With that short a window, 'he was able to get in and out of the area quickly' he must have lived and/or worked nearby and had an alibi that is not as solid as it appeared.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I haven't come down either way on whether it is cold or not. Forensics takes a long time, but I can't see it taking 2 and a half years. LE may be looking at it over and over again, but I believe 95% to 99% of what needed to be tested has been tested long ago. Maybe comparisons with new persons, but no new testing.

What leads me to believe this case is not cold is the massive volume of publicity LE has uncharacteristically thrown at this case. That creates tips and when you have tips and it is difficult to argue that the case is not cold.

Where I am in conflict is in the enormous amount of publicity LE has thrown at this case and does it artificially create the illusion of a case that is not cold. Why this case? Because it was two young girls and this upsets us all? This is not the only crime ISP has on its plate. For example, ISP is supposedly investigating the disappearance of a young mother, Marina Boelter, from Bloomfield IN on New Year's Eve 2014. Her mother is trying desperately to get her daughter's case out in the public and ISP might as well be a group of deaf mutes for all public effort they have, or have not, done in her case. We all want to see PC's and listen to interviews from ISP and the local sheriff and LE is providing it. Then every time they do we hear about the volume of tips coming in - supposedly 950 in the 24-48 hours after the 22 April PC. So if tips are the measurement tool, then this case is not cold.

But beyond the volume of tips, what is the quality of the new tips? If the town drunk, Bill will call him, has 20 tips called in on him in the first 1000 and a janitor somewhere else has a large volume of tips and LE clears the two, then if we get a large volume of repeat tips on these two after 22 April are they really 'new' tips? People may be frustrated that they didn't hear anything on their original tip or their neighbor said they called in a tip so now they call in the same tip 2 years later, is it really a 'new' tip?

We, the public, are being told the volume of tips, but not - and rightfully so - the content of the tips. Even if LE tells me, "Yes, we are getting some good tips." I am skeptical. But again, I am auditor by profession and in the GAO Yellow Book, we are cautioned that testimonial evidence is the weakest form of evidence and cannot be used unless backed by valid documentary evidence or physical observation by the auditors themselves. So I just naturally have a 'healthy skepticism' for lack of a better term. Like the scorpion in the tale of the scorpion and the frog, "I can't help myself, its in my nature."

LE has attempted to educate the public on what a quality tip is. I give them credit for that, but I still fear that 95% of what they are getting in are not helpful. Most tips by now probably elicit eye rolls, but you can’t ignore them. When they finally do catch this killer the numbers will probably read “ We received 76,437 tips in this case, and 76,436 were of no value at all. But 1 made all the difference.”